To start with, Wazat wasn't refering to the post on the QSG boards as being aimed to insult you, he was refering to the post on this thread he made directly before your post. To be honest, I think you may have a point, it was unfair of him to prejudge and suggest that the q2 community was going to be childish. However, I think that he has clarified himself on that point, and he is focusing that on you, not on the q2 community. That's between you two.
As for your point to Sajt; So what if you're well known? If you have done all the things you claim to have done in your post, then kudos, well done, mazel toz and congratulations. Those are al good things and you deserve praise for them. However, just because you are better known in some circles than someone else does not mean your opinion is worth more. As for your point about the separate communities, maybe I should make something clear. Inside3d is a Quake 1 site. I know that on the main page it says it's about 3d gaming, but for at least the last 4 or 5 years this site has been almost exclusively Quake 1. The real reason for this is that there are simply no other forums left on the net for QC programmers to congregate. We came here and basically made it our home, and it's been (relatively) peaceful ever since. This forums has never been a place for intercommunity chats, because it has evolved into being dedicated to one game. Why is that a bad thing? There are other sites, yes, where many other communities mix, and that's fine too. I would not be complaining if q2 coding had it's own board, in fact it probably does. That's their right has much as this is ours.
So finally to your points to me. Firstly, Quake, Quake2 and Quake 3 Arena do not have some continuous storyline. They are completely separate games with completely separate characters and storylines. PlanetQuake is so-called because it opened before the release of Quake 2. It was originally a Quake news site.
However, I do agree that the word 'Quake' is used by some to refer to the quake series. Does this mean we're not allowed to call ourselves Qexpo? Just because people refer to the series of games by the same name doesnt mean we have to stop calling it by it's real name. I remember a few years ago on the PQ forums getting totally flamed because I referred to Quake as 'Quake' rather than 'Classic Quake'. Last time I checked it wasn't called classic quake, or quake 1. It's called Quake. I don't see why it's an issue. Qexpo sounds a lot better than CQexpo or Q1expo, and I don't see why we should have to pander to people who have a problem with us celebrating the game we love.
Yes, the line about not allowing GTA or UT in was silly, but it was intended to be. I was making the point that we set up Qexpo, we put the work in and all we wanted in return was that Quake wasn't swamped over by Quake 2. At the time of the last Qexpo, it seemed that allowing Q2 in would lead to Qexpo becoming a mostly Q2 event. That was really not what the organisers had put the time (and money) in to this for. Now, it seems the Q2 community is on a smaller scale to what it was then, as far as I understand it the two communities are much more equal in size. This I feel will mean that Quake will not be too overshadowed, and so I think that letting Q2 in is a good idea. I don't see why you can't see this.
On to you final point, and here I may well have to agree with you. I do agree that before the last Qexpo some people here acted rather inconsiderately, and were somewhat insulting to the people requesting Q2 be allowed it. I myself had no part in this. However, this was a two way street, with flaming heading in both directions. I think that if you are requesting to be allowed into an event, coming here and saying (in l33t speak) 'Why is we not being allowed in, you dickheads?' as I recall one person saying, is not the way to go about it. Similarly, you and wazat having a flame war is not the way to go about it either, regardless of who started it.
I'm not trying to have a go at you. I'm just trying to get our point across. The Quake Community started Qexpo to celebrate Quake the game. Maybe the time has come for it to celebrate Quake the Series.
QExpo Poll : Allowing Quake2
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by Sajt » Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:49 am
evilpope, I don't give a rat's hairy behind how bloody well-known you really are. I've never heard of you (except two years ago right here, of course) and you've never heard of me. Would you like me to go off in a big rant of all things I've done to try to force respect? I don't think I'll bother, because after all this, neither of us like each other any more.
Wazat's first comment might have been a bit harsh, but I think it was true enough, especially since he mentioned he was only referring to a few of the Q2 community, not all of them. Because certainly, a few people did act out of hand last year (at least this year it's only one, so far). At least to us, you can't disguise your coming in here and trying to start a ruckus as anything else. If you hadn't personally intervened, I wouldn't be surprised if the matter was already decided now, in favour of letting Quake 2 in.
'you should be more concerned with your own attitude of being unwilling to help out anyone but yourself when it requires little to no extra work on your part.'
This is a stupid thing to say. We made the QExpo, which was supposed to be a Quake event. Then the suggestion came forward to include Quake 2, and all of a sudden it is selfish if we DON'T include them, even if it was originally intended as a celebration of Quake. It's not, as you seem to say, 'natural' that QExpo would automatically include Quake 2.
But again, I am for including Quake 2 this time around. I have by now made up my mind, and no idiocy of evilpope's will change it. You can keep natting on, but what I would like to know is why you are doing it... What are you fighting for? Quake 2 to be included? Or are you just reacting to what you saw as an insult? (These questions are serious, mind you)
Wazat's first comment might have been a bit harsh, but I think it was true enough, especially since he mentioned he was only referring to a few of the Q2 community, not all of them. Because certainly, a few people did act out of hand last year (at least this year it's only one, so far). At least to us, you can't disguise your coming in here and trying to start a ruckus as anything else. If you hadn't personally intervened, I wouldn't be surprised if the matter was already decided now, in favour of letting Quake 2 in.
'you should be more concerned with your own attitude of being unwilling to help out anyone but yourself when it requires little to no extra work on your part.'
This is a stupid thing to say. We made the QExpo, which was supposed to be a Quake event. Then the suggestion came forward to include Quake 2, and all of a sudden it is selfish if we DON'T include them, even if it was originally intended as a celebration of Quake. It's not, as you seem to say, 'natural' that QExpo would automatically include Quake 2.
But again, I am for including Quake 2 this time around. I have by now made up my mind, and no idiocy of evilpope's will change it. You can keep natting on, but what I would like to know is why you are doing it... What are you fighting for? Quake 2 to be included? Or are you just reacting to what you saw as an insult? (These questions are serious, mind you)
F. A. Špork, an enlightened nobleman and a great patron of art, had a stately Baroque spa complex built on the banks of the River Labe.
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by evilpope » Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:29 am
You guys seem to have misinterpreted why I posted a bit about what I have done in the community. Sajt tried to insinuate that because he has never heard of me, that I am not a part of the quake2 community. I was simply pointing out that this is not the case.
MuaveBib: his post on qsg was a link to the post that he admitted was meant to be insulting. He provoked it, plain and simple.
As for what you are calling the quake1 community, I think you have made some mistakes. The q1 community is alot larger than the people who post on i3d. And that's fine if you want to be a quake1 only community, but then don't come onto q2 forums acting like we should bow down to you because you might include q2 in your next qexpo after treating us like shit the first time around.
In my opinion, if qexpo is meant to celebrate quake1 only, then keep it that way. The only possible reason i'm seeing with having q2 this year after hearing everyone say they were scared that q2 would overshadow q1 last year, is that you need the publicity q2 stuff would bring to you q1 guys. This may not be the reason, but there was definately no reason to come to our q2 board if you want to remain separated from us.
To Sajt:
The reason why I am here is because you (the preverbial you referring to wazat representing the i3d community with a link to your forums) posted a link to a post that was deliberately insulting. And at this point, no I am not fighting to have quake2 included. I would prefer if you guys kept to yourselves if that's how you act towards people who dont share the same opinions as you. Last year I was irritated that after spending alot of time posting news for quakesrc, and even taking the time to scour q1 sites for news about quake1 development, that people like lordhavoc who was also involved with qsg would be so rude and selfish. And I never said not including quake2 was selfish, I said your reasoning for it is selfish. I am sorry you feel that you might get overshadowed by something someone has done for q2, but ask yourself, who's fault is that? It's not theirs, it's yours. You've had access to the engine code for much longer, and should have alot better product by now because of that. If you didn't take advantage of that opportunity, you shouldn't try and punish others for it. If you had the opportunity to help 2 groups of people instead of just one, you should have taken it. That would be like telling the victims of the tsunami that we can't help them AND the victims of mudslides in california because we are afraid it might overshadow coverage of our own weather here in the US.
MuaveBib: his post on qsg was a link to the post that he admitted was meant to be insulting. He provoked it, plain and simple.
As for what you are calling the quake1 community, I think you have made some mistakes. The q1 community is alot larger than the people who post on i3d. And that's fine if you want to be a quake1 only community, but then don't come onto q2 forums acting like we should bow down to you because you might include q2 in your next qexpo after treating us like shit the first time around.
In my opinion, if qexpo is meant to celebrate quake1 only, then keep it that way. The only possible reason i'm seeing with having q2 this year after hearing everyone say they were scared that q2 would overshadow q1 last year, is that you need the publicity q2 stuff would bring to you q1 guys. This may not be the reason, but there was definately no reason to come to our q2 board if you want to remain separated from us.
To Sajt:
The reason why I am here is because you (the preverbial you referring to wazat representing the i3d community with a link to your forums) posted a link to a post that was deliberately insulting. And at this point, no I am not fighting to have quake2 included. I would prefer if you guys kept to yourselves if that's how you act towards people who dont share the same opinions as you. Last year I was irritated that after spending alot of time posting news for quakesrc, and even taking the time to scour q1 sites for news about quake1 development, that people like lordhavoc who was also involved with qsg would be so rude and selfish. And I never said not including quake2 was selfish, I said your reasoning for it is selfish. I am sorry you feel that you might get overshadowed by something someone has done for q2, but ask yourself, who's fault is that? It's not theirs, it's yours. You've had access to the engine code for much longer, and should have alot better product by now because of that. If you didn't take advantage of that opportunity, you shouldn't try and punish others for it. If you had the opportunity to help 2 groups of people instead of just one, you should have taken it. That would be like telling the victims of the tsunami that we can't help them AND the victims of mudslides in california because we are afraid it might overshadow coverage of our own weather here in the US.
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by MauveBib » Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:00 am
when I said the Q1 community, I meant the QC modding community, which really is very little more than the people who post here.
Noone has asked you to bow down to anyone. We simply asked if any members of the Q2 community would be interested in joining in with the Qexpo. And not in any subjegated way, we're also interested in having Q2 people help run the Qexpo.
We didn't 'treat you like shit', we simply wanted Qexpo 2003 to be about Quake 1. I have already said that I disaproved of the flamewar that took place, but that doesn't mean we we wrong to not want Q2 involved back then. That was our decision to make.
Qexpo was originally intended to celebrate Quake, but now we have decided to expand it towards Quake 2 as well. Why is that a bad thing? You say we're doing it for publicity, and to an extent that is true. But what you're missing is that it'd also bring more publicity to the Q2 community. It would be a symbiotic relationship benefiting everyone.
As far as I'm aware, we posted in the general discussion board, not the q2 board. Quakesrc has Q1 and Q2 boards, but we didnt post in those.
And you're wrong about Wazat. His comment on this thread about 'psycho q2 people' was directed at you, yes. The post at on the other forum linking here was directed at the whole q2 community, not at you. Get over yourself.
And your comment about us not having made 'better product' with the engine source is simply wrong. Check out darkplaces and educate yourself.
You then go on to say that if we could help 2 communities instead of 1 we should. That's exactly what we're doing, and contradicts totally with your earler statement about us doing this only for q1 publicity.
If you don't want to be involved with Qexpo, then frankly I'm happy. With this kind of attitude I don't think you'd fit in anyway. However, don't assume you speak for the whole Q2 community.
I think Qexpo 2005 will be a big success for Q1 and Q2, and you'll see just how wrong you were.
Noone has asked you to bow down to anyone. We simply asked if any members of the Q2 community would be interested in joining in with the Qexpo. And not in any subjegated way, we're also interested in having Q2 people help run the Qexpo.
We didn't 'treat you like shit', we simply wanted Qexpo 2003 to be about Quake 1. I have already said that I disaproved of the flamewar that took place, but that doesn't mean we we wrong to not want Q2 involved back then. That was our decision to make.
Qexpo was originally intended to celebrate Quake, but now we have decided to expand it towards Quake 2 as well. Why is that a bad thing? You say we're doing it for publicity, and to an extent that is true. But what you're missing is that it'd also bring more publicity to the Q2 community. It would be a symbiotic relationship benefiting everyone.
As far as I'm aware, we posted in the general discussion board, not the q2 board. Quakesrc has Q1 and Q2 boards, but we didnt post in those.
And you're wrong about Wazat. His comment on this thread about 'psycho q2 people' was directed at you, yes. The post at on the other forum linking here was directed at the whole q2 community, not at you. Get over yourself.
And your comment about us not having made 'better product' with the engine source is simply wrong. Check out darkplaces and educate yourself.
You then go on to say that if we could help 2 communities instead of 1 we should. That's exactly what we're doing, and contradicts totally with your earler statement about us doing this only for q1 publicity.
If you don't want to be involved with Qexpo, then frankly I'm happy. With this kind of attitude I don't think you'd fit in anyway. However, don't assume you speak for the whole Q2 community.
I think Qexpo 2005 will be a big success for Q1 and Q2, and you'll see just how wrong you were.
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MauveBib - Posts: 634
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by Sajt » Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:47 am
MauveBib: I believe there was a thread in the QSG Q2 forum linking to a thread in the QSG General forum linking to here, or something.
evilpope: I don't sit well with all these accusations you so freely fire away. You are endlessly denouncing us as bad people, bad-natured people, selfish, mean-spirited, all around rubbish-type people. This is probably what our main problem with you is at this point. We did not ask anyone to 'bow down'. We asked if they wanted to be included. Perhaps you wanted us to stoop to butt-kissing? And our not including Q2 last time was not meant as a 'punishment' of any kind, it was a rational decision, and as you know, rational decisions must be made, and it will never be liked by anyone. If it was, you wouldn't need a VISA card.
evilpope: I don't sit well with all these accusations you so freely fire away. You are endlessly denouncing us as bad people, bad-natured people, selfish, mean-spirited, all around rubbish-type people. This is probably what our main problem with you is at this point. We did not ask anyone to 'bow down'. We asked if they wanted to be included. Perhaps you wanted us to stoop to butt-kissing? And our not including Q2 last time was not meant as a 'punishment' of any kind, it was a rational decision, and as you know, rational decisions must be made, and it will never be liked by anyone. If it was, you wouldn't need a VISA card.
F. A. Špork, an enlightened nobleman and a great patron of art, had a stately Baroque spa complex built on the banks of the River Labe.
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by ajay » Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:17 pm
My view, for what it's worth, is that QEXPO either needs to remain Quake-only or be the whole quake series. Why it would be Q and Q2 but not Q3 is unclear to me - neither q2 or q3 share much in common with quake in terms of modding - indeed as far as my limited knowledge of either goes q2 and q3 are probably more similar to each other than to quake.
The problem, however, in making it the whole Quake series is that there will be an extent to which Quake would be swapmed and overshadowed by the other games; especially when the Q3 source is released and the Q4 game is also.
My opinion would therefore be, that to retain what I thought was the original purpose of the expo, and to keep it quake only - not to exclude other (q2 or q3) people but to retain quake's profile at the forefront of the exercise.
The problem, however, in making it the whole Quake series is that there will be an extent to which Quake would be swapmed and overshadowed by the other games; especially when the Q3 source is released and the Q4 game is also.
My opinion would therefore be, that to retain what I thought was the original purpose of the expo, and to keep it quake only - not to exclude other (q2 or q3) people but to retain quake's profile at the forefront of the exercise.
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by Gilgamesh » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:42 pm
More games = more fun
As i'm no longer developing anything quake-related, i only want to see what you guys have to show, i don't care if it's Quake 1 or Quake 2, or even Quake 3!
All i see above is people fighting for a past event, and not showing some friendness. Shame on you all!
As i'm no longer developing anything quake-related, i only want to see what you guys have to show, i don't care if it's Quake 1 or Quake 2, or even Quake 3!
All i see above is people fighting for a past event, and not showing some friendness. Shame on you all!
#EOP
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by Echon » Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:57 pm
HI
How about you guys kiss and shut the fuck up? Tired of this bickering about not being included. I'm not insulting you or anything, evilpope, but I have put forth a LOT more for Quake2 than you have -- including the base for your engine. Quit misrepresenting the Quake2 development community. I'm unsure as to what triggered the flamefest the last time, but to be honest I didn't care enough to sit and read. All I know is that I have a lot of coder pals that can't fucking stand you (other than your actions here I haven't had a reason to dislike you).
If Quake2 is included, fine. If not, fine. I don't honestly care that much. It's all in fun. A big place for developers to strut for a week. If this 'expo' is going to allow Quake2, then I wouldn't mind joining in. If not, I won't start a fucking flamewar over it. If 'they' hated Quake2 then they wouldn't have put forth this (peace?) offering. It was originally a Quake1 thing and I didn't think anything of it when they continued that.
I do find it absolutely ridiculous that Quake2 was not included due to it being new and supposedly full of hype. I really do not think this is a contest, if it is -- let me know so I can officially back out of this. I didn't sign up for an ePenis measuring contest. Fear of being overshadowed is ridiculous. If anything you would benefit off the Quake2 players that come to check it out (because they play Quake2 and not Quake1) and check out other stuff just from continued interest. No reason to be insecure.
Whatever, it's in the past and was their decision to make.
Anyway, got that out of the way. I code a Quake2 engine and am interested in this.
How about you guys kiss and shut the fuck up? Tired of this bickering about not being included. I'm not insulting you or anything, evilpope, but I have put forth a LOT more for Quake2 than you have -- including the base for your engine. Quit misrepresenting the Quake2 development community. I'm unsure as to what triggered the flamefest the last time, but to be honest I didn't care enough to sit and read. All I know is that I have a lot of coder pals that can't fucking stand you (other than your actions here I haven't had a reason to dislike you).
If Quake2 is included, fine. If not, fine. I don't honestly care that much. It's all in fun. A big place for developers to strut for a week. If this 'expo' is going to allow Quake2, then I wouldn't mind joining in. If not, I won't start a fucking flamewar over it. If 'they' hated Quake2 then they wouldn't have put forth this (peace?) offering. It was originally a Quake1 thing and I didn't think anything of it when they continued that.
I do find it absolutely ridiculous that Quake2 was not included due to it being new and supposedly full of hype. I really do not think this is a contest, if it is -- let me know so I can officially back out of this. I didn't sign up for an ePenis measuring contest. Fear of being overshadowed is ridiculous. If anything you would benefit off the Quake2 players that come to check it out (because they play Quake2 and not Quake1) and check out other stuff just from continued interest. No reason to be insecure.
Whatever, it's in the past and was their decision to make.
Anyway, got that out of the way. I code a Quake2 engine and am interested in this.
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by MauveBib » Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:02 pm
Nice to hear Evilpope isn't representative of the Q2 Community in general 
Qexpo is certainly not some kind of contest. It's a celebration of everything quake (and probably quake 2) related, and a time for us to, as you put it, strut our stuff for a week.
The reason we want Quake 2 involved is that we think it will benefit both communities, and everyone will be the better for it. Except maybe evilpope.
It was the feeling before the last expo that Q2 would overshadow Q1, and rightly or wrongly that was one of the reasons behind the decision not to include it. It wasn't the main reason, but you're right in saying that it wasn't particularly fair. However I'm sure you understand that after the organisers put a lot of work into Qexpo to celebrate Q1, letting Q2 in at the last minute (as was the situation last time) was not what we were aiming for.
However, this time around, we've brought up the issue with plenty of time to spare, and are not just looking to let Q2 in, but also to fully share the Qexpo with them, and that includes the running of the event. If Q2 people are involved in the organisation then noone can feel they are putting in work just for the other engine.
I think this could really bring the communities together a lot, and I really think it'd be a good thing.
Qexpo is certainly not some kind of contest. It's a celebration of everything quake (and probably quake 2) related, and a time for us to, as you put it, strut our stuff for a week.
The reason we want Quake 2 involved is that we think it will benefit both communities, and everyone will be the better for it. Except maybe evilpope.
It was the feeling before the last expo that Q2 would overshadow Q1, and rightly or wrongly that was one of the reasons behind the decision not to include it. It wasn't the main reason, but you're right in saying that it wasn't particularly fair. However I'm sure you understand that after the organisers put a lot of work into Qexpo to celebrate Q1, letting Q2 in at the last minute (as was the situation last time) was not what we were aiming for.
However, this time around, we've brought up the issue with plenty of time to spare, and are not just looking to let Q2 in, but also to fully share the Qexpo with them, and that includes the running of the event. If Q2 people are involved in the organisation then noone can feel they are putting in work just for the other engine.
I think this could really bring the communities together a lot, and I really think it'd be a good thing.
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MauveBib - Posts: 634
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