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Posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/09 20:41:36

Here's the d/l link: download
The RemakeQuake blog with screenshots: blog
And our public forum for feedback: forum
The pack consists of four large levels by myself and Ricky along with a load of new Qc, sound and engine features. Shortly we'll be releasing the tools version as well, which features the BSP2 tools. A small detail was omitted from the readme, that being the correct command line of:
-game rmqwinter11 -sndspeed 44100
Let us know what you think, this has been a long time in the making, but we're pretty pleased with the results.

Hooooly Crap
#1 posted by Tronyn [24.79.201.144] on 2012/01/10 03:54:49
yay!
looks awesome guys!
congratulations!
#2 posted by Yhe1 [71.160.150.186] on 2012/01/10 04:12:25
Please make that damage blur optional
R_motionblur 0
#3 posted by rj [86.0.164.53] on 2012/01/10 08:44:27
Dudes!
#4 posted by nitin [124.148.189.42] on 2012/01/10 12:12:49
e2m1 looks phenomenal, e3m1 looks ok, lighting in e3m2 looks rubbish and e3m3 looks lovely.
#5 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.30] on 2012/01/10 12:15:55
ep3 is my favourite quake ep so if you mess it up I be very angry grr rah
Here's
#6 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/10 13:28:35
The Devkit:
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
It has the tools for the BSP2 format plus sources for most of the stuff.
#7 posted by gb [46.142.22.73] on 2012/01/10 13:39:27
There are now screenies at the blog, could a mod edit the news post to say so please.
nitin: Right on :-) the colour scheme in e2m1rq works very well, and I want to specifically mention inkub0 who did the hires textures which probably was a shitload of work and underappreciated, too.
/me Gets Some Tranquilisers Ready
#8 posted by Spirit [89.204.130.10] on 2012/01/10 14:20:43
no zip release?
I'm Sure That Can Be Arranged
#9 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/10 14:51:56
I Laughed Hard
#10 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.218.42] on 2012/01/10 15:17:39
A zip with a windows installer in it
"Linux users will have to use Wine to run the installer, and download the most up-to-date Linux engine linked below"
...and the installer just dumps everything into a folder of your choice!
made my day, really ))))))))))))
Now its time to play.
#11 posted by Spirit [80.171.97.215] on 2012/01/10 15:17:50
Not sure if I want to give more feedback (sadly I did not realise that the engine was not recording over reloads and thus my demos are useless) but just one major thing:
The weird "drunk" section on e3m3rq made me quit after a minute because it made me feel dizzy and queasy.
So Is The Engine Still
#12 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.61.240] on 2012/01/10 15:40:17
using function pointers AND SDL to be portable or has it been made easier to port? Because if so, I could look at the OS X port again.
#13 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.30] on 2012/01/10 15:41:18
A zip with a windows installer in it
Superb troll imo :D
Heh
#14 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/10 17:31:59
The installer creator program I used had better compression than .zip, but the first place I tried to upload it wouldn't take the file. I thought that this might have been because it was a .exe file, hence the .exe in the .zip. Never mind.
#15 posted by mh [109.79.198.196] on 2012/01/10 20:28:51
The weird "drunk" section on e3m3rq .... made me feel dizzy and queasy.
That's the intention, I think. You're down in poisonous fog and the environment is not a nice place to be in.
using function pointers AND SDL to be portable or has it been made easier to port? Because if so, I could look at the OS X port again.
It's using the very same code as QuakeSpasm does, as it has always done. If it needs to use anything different, specifics of what those differences actually are would be nice to know.
For the record, the engine does compile clean on Linux and always has done so. Any portability issues that may or may not exist would be strictly confined to MacOS.
Slowest Run Ever
#16 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.218.42] on 2012/01/10 21:12:41
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
With some commehnts.
Mh
#17 posted by SleepwalkR [92.231.235.31] on 2012/01/10 23:05:59
Last time I looked at the engine, it was different from QuakeSpasm, or I looked at something else and am confused. But I found function pointers all over the place and I think I sent an email to gb or you about it, but never got a reply. I'll have a look again.
Okay, So I'm An Idiot
#18 posted by SleepwalkR [92.231.235.31] on 2012/01/10 23:21:03
I think I should have taken a closer look back when gb asked me to do the OS X version. So, apologies are in order for a rather unfriendly reply - sorry, gb. In any case, I'll set up an OS X build, if only for myself. Do you guys insist on support for OS X version prior to 10.6? Because if not, the build configuration and environment is much simpler to set up and replicate for others.
#19 posted by gb [46.142.22.73] on 2012/01/11 00:03:34
np. I wondered a bit about your reply, apparently there was some misunderstanding so no big deal.
OSX port would be great of course. :)
I know too little about Macs to comment on OSX versions though.
Lightmill
#20 posted by ijed [190.22.126.160] on 2012/01/11 00:34:14
The demo crashes with a 'MAX_SOMETHING' error - ?
Lightmill
#21 posted by gb [46.142.22.73] on 2012/01/11 02:42:40
The second demo crashes for me also at some point, not sure why. The first and third demos work fine.
Weapons that belong in the same "slot" (Shredder and SSG are both slot 3) replace each other. Which replacements you can find in a map is episode specific. This is just something to note. Once this is known (after one or two playthroughs), people can choose what to pick up.
The weapon characteristics are different from Quake, for example the shotgun isn't very efficient at range but does more damage.
Thank you for the good and helpful comments in the demos. Feedback is much appreciated.
#22 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.30] on 2012/01/11 02:56:28
Shotgun/Nailgun >>>>>>>>&g... pew pew pew laser :/
E2m1rq Impressions
#23 posted by ericw [142.179.129.40] on 2012/01/11 02:56:38
Congratulations on this release! I've only played e2m1rq so far. Excited to play the e3 maps.
Here are some rough notes taken while playing:
gameplay:
-intro cutscene is unskippable, so if you die near the start a couple of times, it starts to get really annoying.
-not convinced the fall damage increase is beneficial.
-the pent drains your health, and you can die with it on? On my playthrough it was a totally bad idea to grab the pent, because I had to play a fair bit with 1 health (and there weren’t health pickups), so it was a basically a trap. not sure if that’s what you were going for.
-powerups: I like having “5 health” pickups. They don’t look very good though.
-sweet to see Q2’s armour shards!
sounds:
-in the first room of e2m1rq, the beeping sound is really bad. compare with the cool computer beeps in quake. there is also an ambient sound that sounds like a train whistle… it feels out of place.
-player jump sound, and enforcer/grunt sounds suck :-(
-dog, fiend OK, but worse than the originals.
-ambient drone throughout e2m1rq is too loud, and not that inspiring.
-nailgun sounds wimpy. grenade launch has too much “whoosh”, and the bounce is tinny.
-the “landing on the floor” sound is unsatisfying.
-new water entry/exit sounds are OK. the hydraulic elevator sound is nice.
-shotgun firing sound is good.
-gib sound is good.
I hate to tear apart the sounds so much, but they really detracted from the experience for me. My suggestion is to get someone who is ruthless, and was uninvolved in creating/finding them, to sort through them and cut anything that does not meet the quality of id’s originals.
visuals:
-starting room: the red lighting in the starting glass chamber is obnoxious. the yellow lights outside are also a bit overdone.
-underwater warp: great! every engine, please copy this :-). only nitpick is, from underwater, I couldn’t see the water surface.
-would be nice to see a reflective water shader.
-wasn’t a fan of the “red oval” thing when you take damage. The motion blur damage feedback looks ok to me, but I’m not really convinced it’s better than red tint.
-still not totally convinced by the highres textures. some are very nice, many are amateurish (overdone emboss, layering of scratches, and colours not as good as the originals)
-when you activate the exit slipgate, the coloured lighting is way overdone. (blue lighting, the pink voreballs).
-what’s with the black blob for the teleport flash?
-with all of the other visual upgrades, the retro particles stick out a bit.
weapons:
-the chainsaw is ugly… how about the zer chainsaw?
-I like the shotgun a lot as far damage/feel. Hand is too white, looks like quakeguy just took a shower. Cover it in a blood-dripping, dirt-caked, cracked leather glove?
-the angled weapons were screwing up my aim.
-shotguns don’t fire underwater: this seems kind of fun-spoiling.
-the wait between shots of the double-barrel shotgun was a bit too long for me, it felt like the Q2 railgun a bit. otherwise it looked good and I liked the damage.
monsters:
-the base flying enemy is kind of ugly; too bright and sterile looking. he was also boring gameplay wise. the bob (the quick flier from hipnotic / quoth) is better looking and more fun to fight.
-i liked the floor mounted turret. it was fun taking out of a pair of them while avoiding a fiend.
-vomiting blob thing: need to spend some more time with it, but it looks good and seems like a cool monster.
map:
-it was a stunning map overall!
-I did get lost a bit. what did the button in HQ do?
-loved the bit e2m1 homage bit near the middle/end :-)
-not a fan of the mid-level cutscenes when you push buttons. If you want to show the location that the button is affecting, how about having it on a TV monitor next to the button? Otherwise just kill the cutscenes entirely.
misc
-performance wise, ran well on my nvidia 7600gt.
Artifacts
#24 posted by Scrama [81.23.195.106] on 2012/01/11 02:59:12
http://pix.academ.org/img/2012/01/...
Demo shows me flickering surfaces and HOMs, how can I fix it?
cmdline
rmqe.exe -game rmqwinter11 -width 640 -height 480 -bpp 32 -sndspeed 44100 -heapsize 131072
hw P4 3.2 / ATI x600
The Demo Crashes With A 'MAX_SOMETHING' Error - ?
#25 posted by mh [109.79.198.196] on 2012/01/11 03:13:27
It's a dzip file so you need to decompress it: http://speeddemosarchive.com/dzip/
I watched all 3 demos. You were quite obviously playing around with the map, exploring, trying things out, and that was great to see. Some informative and useful comments too.
#26 posted by gb [46.142.22.73] on 2012/01/11 03:57:12
Hmm, I did decompress it.
Sounds & textures: we are aware of the issues and working to fix them. Ruthlessly cutting half of the sounds would unfortunately again require replacements, and these types of sounds are very hard to acquire if you have no budget (licenses for use in video games are $$$$). Surprisingly few people (none) have stepped up to help us with voice acting, too. ;-)
-> We're working on it.
DZip Ate It
#27 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.206.253] on 2012/01/11 04:05:06
Yeah. Here is 7z-ed part2 of the demo, it works.
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
Gb
#28 posted by ericw [142.179.129.40] on 2012/01/11 05:01:45
cool, sorry if I came off as an ass with that comment. I can only imagine how hard it is to find or make good quality sfx and textures!
Just curious, will you guys consider using any of the originals though? I know if you run at 16-bit/44100Hz the quake resampler sounds pretty awful, but if they're resampled properly they sound good to me when mixed with other 16-bit/44100Hz sound or music.
If it's any help, I have a patch in the Quakespasm patch tracker which improves the built in upsampler, getting rid of the high-pitch "grunge" when upsampling 11025Hz to 44100Hz: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?fu...
900 Draw Calls?
#29 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.206.253] on 2012/01/11 05:18:53
Are you kidding me http://i.imgur.com/xgSQl.jpg
How is that even possible?
Hi Lightmill
#30 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/11 06:04:30
The map has some ridiculous amount of verts and lightmaps. It's fully vised at level 4, which only took 13h. I didn't think that was too bad :O I was using the computer for vids and browsing at the same time. But yeah - r_speeds are high (naturally), hence the new engine which used much more modern rendering tech :)
#31 posted by [81.23.195.106] on 2012/01/11 06:10:40
so what about glithces?
http://pix.academ.org/img/2012/01/...
http://pix.academ.org/img/2012/01/...
condump:
SDL_net TCP/IP initialized
Exe: 23:24:51 Dec 28 2011
128.0 megabyte heap
Video mode 800x600x32 initialized
GL_VENDOR: ATI Technologies Inc.
GL_RENDERER: RADEON X600/X550 Series x86/SSE2
GL_VERSION: 2.0.6590 WinXP Release
FOUND: ARB_multitexture
FOUND: ARB_texture_compression
FOUND: ARB_texture_cube_map
FOUND: ARB_texture_env_combine
FOUND: ARB_texture_env_add
FOUND: EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic
FOUND: EXT_compiled_vertex_array
FOUND: ARB_vertex_buffer_object
FOUND: GL_EXT_swap_control
FOUND: GL_ARB_vertex_program
FOUND: GL_ARB_fragment_program
8 bit stencil buffer
Created gl_postproc_texture at 1024x1024
Created gl_motionblur_texture at 1024x1024
Sound Initialization
SDL audio spec : 44100 Hz, 1024 samples, 2 channels
SDL audio driver: dsound, 65536 bytes buffer
Audio: 16 bit, stereo, 44100 Hz
SDL detected 1 CD-ROM drive
CDAudio initialized (SDL, using E:\)
CDAudio_Init: No CD in drive
========= Quake Initialized =========
execing quake.rc
execing default.cfg
execing config.cfg
VID_Gamma_SetGamma: failed on SDL_SetGammaRamp
Video mode 640x480x32 initialized
GL_VENDOR: ATI Technologies Inc.
GL_RENDERER: RADEON X600/X550 Series x86/SSE2
GL_VERSION: 2.0.6590 WinXP Release
FOUND: ARB_multitexture
FOUND: ARB_texture_compression
FOUND: ARB_texture_cube_map
FOUND: ARB_texture_env_combine
FOUND: ARB_texture_env_add
FOUND: EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic
FOUND: EXT_compiled_vertex_array
FOUND: ARB_vertex_buffer_object
FOUND: GL_EXT_swap_control
FOUND: GL_ARB_vertex_program
FOUND: GL_ARB_fragment_program
8 bit stencil buffer
Created gl_postproc_texture at 1024x512
Created gl_motionblur_texture at 1024x512
execing autoexec.cfg
execing scrama.cfg
3 demo(s) in loop
RMQ Engine 0.85 (Dec 28 2011) SERVER (42813 CRC)
...
Termination: Cerebral
couldn't exec maps/e3m1rq.way
Saving game to ./rmqwinter11/save/e3m1rq_2012-01-...
done.
]condump
Weeeellll
#32 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/11 06:47:57
MH is the man for engine bugs, he's good at fixin 'em too, thanks for the info :D
?
#33 posted by distrans [149.144.9.73] on 2012/01/11 07:13:43
I'm getting some very odd graphic glitches (what looks like long rectangular arms stretching out to a shotgun that's pointed toward the ceiling) but I forgot that shubbyhubby doesn't like .tga files so I'll convert a few pics tonight and post them tomorrow. Game is basically unplayable at the mo'.
gb - regarding sounds and voice acting, my home studio was topped off by a copy of SoundForge 10 Pro at Christmas time so I'm ready to make, change, and generally screw with any sounds or music you need. As for voice acting, my actor friends at the theatre company would be keen to get involved, me too of course. So, let's start a conversation...email is in the profile.
Draws
#34 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.206.253] on 2012/01/11 07:25:18
Are for each unique object\texture (ie 900 grunts = 901 draw call)
To put that in perspective this _entire_ map with r_novis is ~5000 draws (yeah it's a heavy map).
There is no way to have 900 draws in that scene alone.
The polycount is insignificant, 100k with 10 draws would run faster.
900 Draws
#35 posted by mh [137.191.242.106] on 2012/01/11 11:14:44
You may have found one of those rogue spots where vis doesn't do it's thing as effectively. It's also the case that the engine alpha sorts absolutely everything that needs it, including individual sprites if necessary. It will batch sprites but switching textures or to a different object type needs to break a batch, of course. Even aside from that, any kind of texture, lightmap or object type switch in the main renderer also needs to break a batch.
(Note the ~7000 epoly count in a scene where you can't see hardly any MDLs.)
Finally, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that you have found a genuine bug with my draw call batcher.
Worth noting that the main skill selction area in ID1 start.bsp comes in at 35 calls in the absolute best case - including using instancing where possible for torches and zombies.
@81.23.195.106 - can you explain these glitches a little better? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing here.
A Suggestion
#36 posted by nitin [124.148.189.42] on 2012/01/11 11:31:44
there's a guy over on quake3world forums called Odium who is the lead artist/modeler on a long in the making free q3 engine game called Overdose. Since that game will be free, some of the weapon models/skins etc that he has done for that may be able to be shared with you guys.
Worth an email I reckon.
Awesome
#37 posted by gb [46.142.5.143] on 2012/01/11 14:18:50
Tons of glitches coming to light, this is very cool and exactly what I hope to get from demo releases.
Distrans: Cool, I'd be delighted to get help with the audio and voice acting. I'll mail you.
Nitin: Thanks for the heads up, I'll definitely look at it.
Ericw
#38 posted by gb [46.142.5.143] on 2012/01/11 14:33:46
Most of what you said was spot on, actually.
Gb
#39 posted by nitin [124.170.24.199] on 2012/01/11 14:41:21
http://www.team-blur-games.com/odi...
#40 posted by gb [46.142.5.143] on 2012/01/11 17:25:59
Quoted from the internal forum;
I lowered fall damage again - with the arrival of special moves, and seeing we have the visual damage feedback/blur now, less fall damage is ok and fits better with the idea of a superhuman player.
I'll also tame the underwater weapon punishment somewhat and probably allow all weapons to function underwater, with an amount of harmless jamming varying from weapon to weapon. I'm thinking to reduce the backfiring (which damages the player) a lot. The destroying of backfiring weapons was already removed a while back.
Part of me sees this as "dumbing it down" since it makes the player suffer less consequences / allows them to switch off the brain while playing. It's difficult to strike a good balance.
#41 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/11 17:37:05
http://negke.slipgateconstruct.com... demos
Many nice and cool things, and also quite a few not so nice ones. The maps look great, though some have issues with the lighting. Too dark or too colorful in some places, and E3M3RQ with terrible minlight.
E2M1RQ goes a bit overboard with reinterpretation and adding new areas, so that only 60% through Quake2 you finally enter the actual e2m1 part. The other ones were mostly recognizable with neat additions. Not sure about the ship part. It certainly looked cool though (with better light).
I experienced a couple of slowdowns in E2M1RQ - this shouldn't happen, but it was bearable. E3M1RQ, on the other hand, was barely playable. Something caused a major hit on performance, possibly the rain. Also I'm not sold on the Glados AI thing, felt tucked on and out of place. 'Regular' (non-humorous) AI broadcasts may be better for the level.
New stuff... the hires textures look surprisingly good. The new sounds, well, I don't like them because they are no improvement on the older ones, but seemingly only added because you felt everything has to be updated to higher resolution. Pew pew laser etc. And what's with the monster calling the player "noob" when he dies - I mean seriously.... Environmental sounds are good.
The new monsters are nice, though also pretty powerful. Seems harder to avoid taking damage. Those Madfox squids work surpringly well (if not overused). They seem even harder to dodge though. The drones look somewhat out of place with their non-brown skin, a bit Shrak/Malice-like. Their explosion should be toned down visually. Zombie knights stay dead a tad too long in my view, could get back up faster.
Gameplay was mostly okay on Normal, was low/out of ammo/health and died a few times. Hardly any secret found, but it's great there are so many in each map. Did you nerf the DBS? Somehow felt weaker than before. I don't like the laser rifle, the v_model looks cheap, and I don't see a good gameplay reason to replace the nailgun with it. I missed the SNG.
Still don't understand why you don't just use the chainsaw model from Zer, it looks very badass - unlike the RMQ one.
The 'drunk' effect in E3M3RQ was annoying and felt like a random idea forced into the map. At least tone it down a little and put a centerprint explaination in the area (poinsonous gas or something).
Please change the autosave system to name the files "autosave.sav" instead of overwriting the quicksave file!
I encountered a few glitches, even two gamebreaking ones. After dying in rising lava, the orange screen tint didn't go away on reloading. The ladders on the ship in E3M3RQ are parially nonsolid. At one point I reloaded and the fog was gone for the rest of the map. Best watch the demos so you can see it for yourself... and have more immediate (and possibly aggravating) comments. Sometimes I only look at something that's wrong but don't type a message. You'll probably get the idea.
Bottom line, enjoyable beta maps, many good features as well as controversial bullshit.
Ah Yes
#42 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/11 17:49:50
The damage blur, interesting effect, but somewhat annoying. It blurs your vision too much if you take lots of damage from different sources. Makes fighting back unnessarily difficult. I sighed at the fall damage a couple of times as well, because there are areas where you are required to jump down (less than 256 units) but can't avoid taking damage from it.
I noticed that the nailgun sometimes jams underwater but still functions. This is good, better than completely disabling it.
What you regard as "dumbed down" actually is what makes Quake fun. The opposite of what all those realism shooters do, and what RMQ, to the dismay of many players, has started to incorporate, eg. damage blur, fall damage, autoregen health etc. Perhaps optional gameplay settings to cater to all kinds of players could make it easier to balance?
Btw. I'm not sold on the new powerup behavior either. Not to mention that you didn't explain how the new versions work now. In effect, I wasted to Quads going wtf at the shorter duration. And ZQF didn't benefit from his Pent, either - quite the contrary. I'd say maybe makes those new version extra items and use them in situations where they can be utilized properly, rather than using them as replacement for the old ones and forcing the players to make due (for in my view, the new ones, at least as much as I understand their behavior, are much less versatile now compared the others).
Feedback-back
#43 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/11 18:37:56
Zer Chainsaw - ok. Ideally I want the player to swing with it. The current version is an Ogre's saw, which is why it looks so crap.
The DBS has a slower fire rate but much more damage, and spread. Up close it makes mincemeat of enemies, although more feedback of that is probably in order.
Increasing the stutter effect for some weapons underwater seems fair. We're still working on the gameplan for the underwater combat.
Same for the powerups - we know the direction, just not all of the specifics yet. I'm also thinking to add print messages for these to make it crystal clear what is going on. The Quad duration for example increases with each kill.
The Blaster model I finished the day before the delivery. A very important aspect of its behaviour is that it increases in power under sustained fire, but becomes more inaccurate. After firing for a short while it'll gib zombies, but at the cost of ammo wasted. So adding visual / audio feedback to show that better is a good idea. So the pew-pew could get more bassy the more powerful the shots are.
Poisonus gas - I'd hoped the fog raising to pea-souper levels would confer this :) I did have a message in there saying 'argh my head' but it seems to have gotten deleted in the shuffle.
Distrans, that'd be great - there's a lot to be done, especially with voice acting. We have a lot thats not included in the demos yet, but vital to the vision.
Negke
#44 posted by gb [46.142.5.143] on 2012/01/11 18:48:52
Good points.
The old chainsaw model sucks, and will be replaced (not with the zer one though, but we can easily make a good looking model now). The blaster vmodel was added at the last minute, and it shows. The explanation for the player to have the blaster is that the Episode 3 player character is an Enforcer - the idea is that you get the enforcer's gun etc. Yes, it needs improvement, no question.
The new powerups: the pent does suck and shouldn't have been in the demo because of this. The quad takes some getting used to, but if used right can outlast the vanilla id quad (killing streak feature). Needs tweaking.
e3m1 slowdowns: Same here, this is due to the sounds. Too many GlaDOS sounds - the rain alone doesn't cause this.
Realism: Yes, as I said earlier I'm cutting back on this stuff.
Autosave overwriting quicksave: It was actually doing what you want, but was changed so you can use quickload to go back to the latest autosave after quitting and restarting the engine. This was done because most people were in favour of the change.
SSG was nerfed compared to Demo 2, yep. There might be a - permanent - weapon upgrade thing sometime later, where you collect an item and it just buffs a weapon. We plan no alt-fire or anything like that.
Will watch demos now, thanks a lot for those.
#45 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.2] on 2012/01/11 18:56:41
What you regard as "dumbed down" actually is what makes Quake fun
This!
I feel a lot of what is being done in RMQ is against the fundamental spirit of the kind of experience old iD shooters embodied. A fast, tight action game with simple weapons and mechanics that gives variety and complexity through level design and monster variety.
Things are being made too complicated, a feel of 'this would be cool' rather than 'this would be appropriate'. The engine tech and sheer degree of work is very impressive, but the design is muddled. Ultimately Negke is spot on.
#46 posted by gb [46.142.5.143] on 2012/01/11 19:04:55
a lot of what is being done in RMQ is against the fundamental spirit of the kind of experience old iD shooters embodied.
Please, concrete examples would be helpful.
The core gameplay is still "kill monsters, press buttons". RMQ weapons are very powerful, so the game actually favours a rush-in approach. Stuff like pushable crate puzzles can usually be bypassed in the typical ways (trickjumps etc).
There are a ton of buttons in e3m3rq for example, but I've got to say pressing buttons has been an established gameplay mechanic in Quake all the time.
Give examples, please, instead of roundhouse kicks. ;-)
Good Feedback Here
#47 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/11 19:52:36
But it's a daunting task when you're faced with it. Watching Negke's demos (of my map, naturally) was actually quite cool. He doesn't miss much! A agreed with almost 100% of his comments.
I generally feel that e2m1rq needs to be tightened up. Trust me I've been tightening the sh*t out of it for the last two or three months. Releasing these demos is good when it's actually your own work which is on the line because it makes you look at it from other people's perspectives. I mean I've been testing my own map a lot, of course, and I can whizz round it and get four quad runs on skill 3 and it's great. But watching people wandering round it for the first time is almost unfathomable for me by now.
ZQF I know where you are coming from for sure. 'Against the fundamental spirit of the kind of experience old id shooters embodied' is a roundhouse kick, agreed, but, having watched a couple of player demos (three infact) from this release, I have been considering way which I can make the experience of playing my map more fluid, basically just putting more gameplay into the same distance travelled. I need to keep the player pumping rounds. I need to keep them more worried about what is round the corner. More worried about what is going to be in their face in two seconds time, rather than standing way back and picking monsters of from a distance. Or something like that. More manic.
It's all coming. The extra features and tech I don't think are the problem though, it's just using them in a balanced was so as not to interrupt the carnage too much.
#48 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.2] on 2012/01/11 20:15:50
Yeah that was a bit over dramatic of me, just that laser thing really took me out of the feel in a bad way... I'll try and come back with something more helpful later ;)
#49 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.206.253] on 2012/01/11 23:11:41
You should think "what it adds to the game and gameplay?"
Damage is a way of punishing the player for doing wrong or failing at the game. What's wrong about jumping from a ladder or 250 high platform? Add to that the way your maps are build, typical quake scale with no consideration for the altered falling damage. Its damage=punishment for nothing.
You should increase the threshold hight where only the bigger hight gives significant damage. Where it would be quite clear: don't fall here, you'd break your legs. Obvious danger is good.
Guns not working in the water - again why? And backfiring is just dumb - random punishment.
Its not realistic (if you want realism you should disable chainsaw in the water if anything). This adds nothing to the game, only taking away from it, because now you have to avoid in-water combat in your maps, knowing that the guns would malfunction.
This could work if you wanted to use water as a barrier, like HL does, forcing the player away from it. But then why not just use slime, which explicitly tells the player to 'stay away'. Clear game rules are good.
But if you have lots of accessible water volumes that offer exploration allowing combat there would only benefit the game. I missed my dopefish slaying. Or just lighting the dark corners with some shots.
Haven't played all the other maps yet, will comment later.
... And The
#50 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.206.253] on 2012/01/11 23:20:27
SOUNDS
I'm making a patch changing the monster and most weapon sounds back to the original. Bad sounds ruin otherwise good mod. Simply removing grunt\enforcer wavs made the first map more enjoyable its not even funny.
To MH
#51 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.206.253] on 2012/01/11 23:36:13
What happened to the pretty particles of MH quake? I'd like to enable them in RMQ. Having an option to have better particles than just old quake pixels would benefit the looks.
And how do you handle external textures overbrighting and flullbright bits? Most engines do nothing resulting in half the lighting range (compared to overbright lightmaps)and overall darker looks. I noticed same effect in rmq maps, which were probably lit for in-bsp pcx textures and look rather dimly lit in many areas. Most evident in e3 maps with darker textures. And the buttons miss the fullbrights in m1 and e3m4 notably), which would help them to be more standout. Not sure if its particular texture or engine thing...
Lightmill
#52 posted by gb [46.142.5.143] on 2012/01/12 00:30:19
I have my own reasons for liking fall damage and stuff like underwater jamming in games. I even (predictably) like reloading and weapon decay. If you have to know, for me it adds to the challenge because it requires me to look for ways to deal with those limitations, which I enjoy, but this is a question of taste and if you don't like it, that's OK.
The fact you don't like it doesn't automatically make it a bad idea though. BTW vanilla Quake has backfiring underwater, with the lightning gun, so it isn't like that's some alien concept. It's in the game since it was released.
However, as I said it is being nerfed right now. No need to keep attacking it. We have taken the advice on board.
BTW, your plan to make a patch comes off a little like saying "Here, I'll fix your game for you." That's not what I would say in anyone else's release thread, even if I wanted to say it. Let people make their games as they see fit.
Lightmill
#53 posted by mh [109.79.128.124] on 2012/01/12 00:30:19
I watched all of your demos and found them very useful. Some responses for you.
I personally think that the entry area to e2m1rq needs a better hint to the player. Maybe a crack in the floor, some sparks, and a second pop-up message: "a couple of hits should do it". This only occurred to me as I was watching your demo.
Sometimes I wasn't certain if you'd got lost or were just exploring.
The engine doesn't have fancy particles yet. They're on the list of things to do (as well as CSQC, PK3 and a billion other things) and we just had to choose a cutoff point and get this thing released.
I personally think here that hard-coding fancy particle effects into an engine is very much the Wrong Thing; they should be more controllable by modders. That of course puts the onus on the modder to do the extra work, and if a modder doesn't want fancy particles then you won't get them at all. Maybe there is a happy middle ground that can please everybody, but my experience is that if you try that you normally end up pleasing nobody.
It's obvious that some decisions need to be toned down a little, yes. Remember that this is a demo and as such is a point-in-time snapshot of a work in progress, not the finished item. It's a later demo for sure, meaning that it gives a reasonable indication of what the finished item will be like, and nothing major can really be overturned at this stage, but everything can be tuned and adjusted.
Lightmaps. The range is essentially unlimited. Some of the areas where you commented on areas being "too yellow" would actually have looked green in engines that did 2x overbrighting, as the red channel would have been clamped off. Standard lighting can go up to 1020 without being clamped (each style goes up to 255, up to 4 styles on a face) whereas GLQuake and derivatives are limited to 255 here (and even if you add a 2x modulate you lose a bit of precision which this engine doesn't); dynamic lights are unbounded.
It would be quite straightforward to add some cvars for additional light scaling and ambience, but I'm going to make an alternative suggestion.
I think you're running your monitor very dark. I looked through all the areas where you had to shoot in order to see by the muzzleflash, and I could see everything quite clearly all of the time, even though my own monitor is also quite dark.
By The Way
#54 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/12 00:46:34
Please play e2m1rq on nightmare, or skill 2. It's a lot more fun. I like to try and cater for a broad range of players, I don't always succeed, but I definitely prefer to play this on Nightmare. IT's not too much of a chore either. I can do it without dieing.
Case Sensitivity Issues On Linux
#55 posted by mwh [120.136.5.22] on 2012/01/12 02:00:47
To be able to load e2m1rq, I had to rename a bunch of files to match the case that the map expected. I think was all of them:
rmqwinter11/maps/e2m1rq_tileGib1.b...
rmqwinter11/maps/e2m1rq_tileGib2.b...
rmqwinter11/maps/e2m1rq_demonCrate...
rmqwinter11/maps/e2m1rq_demonCrate...
rmqwinter11/maps/e2m1rq_demonCrate...
I don't think this would have been an issue if they were in a .pak file fwiw.
More comments later, I hope...
Pak
#56 posted by ijed [190.22.2.179] on 2012/01/12 02:30:52
Doesn't support our filename length - this will be fixed for next time.
#57 posted by Scrama [81.23.195.106] on 2012/01/12 03:59:58
Well... new drivers fix glitches with strobing surfaces, nice.
About game, good:
-level design
-bsp2 idea
-new models
-engine balance between classic atmosphere and bells&whistles
bad:
-new sounds
-annoying particles around player when firing blaster
Yay Func_ Url Shortening
#58 posted by mwh [120.136.5.22] on 2012/01/12 04:47:53
Cool. Still haven't gotten around to playing much...
(also sound works perfectly on linux this time around, makes a nice change)
#59 posted by Yhe1 [71.160.150.186] on 2012/01/12 05:15:26
One of the features of RMQ is that you can play thorugh id1 maps with it, but increased fall damage and underwater jaming actually break some maps
#60 posted by Yhe1 [71.160.150.186] on 2012/01/12 05:28:37
Also, is there an command to make the water non-transparent in RMQ? Thanks
#61 posted by Yhe1 [71.160.150.186] on 2012/01/12 05:33:31
I am encountering rendering bugs with id1 maps in RMQ with transparent water.
#62 posted by Scrama [81.23.195.106] on 2012/01/12 05:56:33
Yhe1, r_wateralpha 1 works fine.
You Can Get Watervised Id1 Maps...
#63 posted by mwh [121.73.77.183] on 2012/01/12 08:19:44
... somewhere. Guess that's not too helpful, sorry!
Also
#64 posted by ijed [190.22.2.179] on 2012/01/12 11:23:33
there are r_lavaalpha r_slimealpha and r_telealpha.
Yes, we've noticed some water rendering bugs - we're on it.
In theory RMQ also supports Nehahra and Quoth maps - but the more complex ones using triggers we didn't make wrappers for probably won't work.
Enemies should swap out fine though - a Drole becoming a Shambler, an ogre2 becoming a rocket ogre (don't remember well).
Clarifications
#65 posted by ijed [190.22.2.179] on 2012/01/12 11:33:51
The water rendering issue we can't retro-fix in id1 since that'd mean just repacking those maps with the fix mwh mentions - I think that's on Quaddicted.
As to underwater combat, the idea wasn't to just break it, but make it more unique. For example making the melee weapons speed you up so that it doesn't matter that your ranged attacks are faulty.
Didn't work though, back to the drawing board. It was an experiment though, and some ideas came out of it - like making air_bubbles recharge your air supply.
My e3m4rq and e3m5rq have quite a bit of water in them, so underwater play will be getting more focus in the future, as we get to figure out what works best.
Please bear in mind - you're getting to see the insides of a development process here :)
#66 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.2] on 2012/01/12 13:31:46
It's been said many times before but ultimately the 'Remake' element is what's caused so much trouble. If you were making a mod in it's own universe as it were, people wouldn't have expectations. But people expect Quake, and the more of Quake's own rules you break the more you'll annoy people. I wanted Doom 3 to be like Doom 2, but I didn't get that. If I'd not had those previous expectations perhaps I'd have liked Doom 3 more.
I started writing up something more detailed divided into three sections, Player enfeeblement, randomness and atmosphere, but really it's this fundamental question of are you making what you think Quake should have been, or something that builds and improves on the original.
If it is the former then there isn't much to argue about design wise because it's the vision of the team making it, and you can just stick up the sign saying well, I think Quake should have given you no working guns underwater etc.
#67 posted by Ankh [192.100.112.202] on 2012/01/12 14:20:03
Here is a demo of e2m1rq
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
Some things I liked, some I didn't like but overall the impression is positive.
The map itself was very good.
I always liked the fact that original quake levels weren't that big. Playing them is always a blast. New maps with more than 200 enemies on normal skill overwhelm me and if the gameplay isn't super exciting it feels to be hard work. From the explanation by Ricky I should have played it on hard but I know form experience that rmq gameplay tends to be much more difficult than standard quake. I will give the other maps a try after some recovery ;)
Sounds
#68 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/12 14:37:11
While I haven't been able to play the latest incarnation of Remake Quake yet (no OSX build, I have a feeling my old XP desktop may not be able to run the gfx ... has problems with DP) ...
I did watch the Youtube on PlanetQuake.
I personal enjoyed the miscellaneous game play challenges of the prior demos.
But the grunt sounds and possibly some of the player sounds to me are too ... loud or demanding of attention. Instead of letting the player get submersed into the environment I feel that the grunt sounds pull you out of that submersion.
Kind of like how I honestly despised the sounds in Q3. Especially Orb and the announcer voice. I once described it as a cacophony.
I don't know. Maybe the sounds could somehow be made more subtle and quiet with some sort of Audacity filter or manipulation or whatever people use for sound processing (I don't really know).
At least that's my perspective. The maps look beautiful and I look forward to playing them and I don't mind a few twists in game play to keep it fresh and I enjoyed playing the last one.
#69 posted by Ankh [62.159.77.164] on 2012/01/12 14:42:55
This is how I love quake:
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
Of course I know the maps by heart but I have also tried playing like this using rmq (previous demo) and I would usually die pretty quick.
Standard quake is forgiving, you are allowed too make some mistakes.
#70 posted by spy [92.47.253.152] on 2012/01/12 14:59:16
It's been said many times before but ultimately the 'Remake' element is what's caused so much trouble. If you were making a mod in it's own universe as it were, people wouldn't have expectations. But people expect Quake, and the more of Quake's own rules you break the more you'll annoy people.
this.
it would be much better(imo) if the rmq continue the same direction as previous rmx maps ie modern/enhanced mapping style with an old fashion gameplay and some quoth qc here and there. e1m1rmx is good example.
Oops
#71 posted by spy [92.47.253.152] on 2012/01/12 15:04:46
btw i have noticed some bug with e2m1 , the water in the starting area/cave just disappears to me. watching at different angles
In Short
#72 posted by erc [46.197.69.11] on 2012/01/12 15:11:02
I agree with Spy's comment completely. New textures and monsters are okay as long as they open up new challenges and are in harmony with the original content (Quoth delivers perfectly in this regard) - however, all those extra sounds (which are mostly out of place) and completely modified game mechanics can ruin what would otherwise be a top-notch pack with high-quality maps and ingenius monster placement.
Being simple, raw and to-the-point has always been the key with Quake. Personally I wouldn't want it any other way.
More ... IQMs ...
#73 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/12 16:38:08
I know you guys have IQMs coming soon.
Any reason not to support Q3 mdl also which is a helluva lot easier on the engine that IQMs?
Or is there a good reason to not like Q3 mdl?
Ijed
#74 posted by Yhe1 [69.198.86.190] on 2012/01/12 17:21:15
Ijed, please give an cvar to turn gun jamming and fall damage off when Playing id1, nehahra, and quoth.
Declaration Of Independence Needed?
#75 posted by gb [46.142.15.177] on 2012/01/12 17:24:34
It is a good point about the "remake" being the problem because people expect a sort of better-looking copy of Quake with some new mapping entities and a few new monsters.
I have said in the past that the name is unfortunate.
I know the development process, the people involved and the underlying tendencies of the project very well. The tendency of the project for a long time has been to become its own animal, in short, RMQ is different and wants to be its own.
There are other mods that don't "break the player's expectations", chiefly Quoth. This is actually a guiding principle of Quoth, as stated by Preach to me privately. We actually used Quoth as a base when we started, but abandoned it because ultimately we couldn't get what we wanted out of Quoth, because some of the ideas we had ultimately and unavoidably break "the player's expectations". This is by far not a new or recent development in the team.
I could ask "who is this rhetorical player with these postulated expectations", and a number of other questions like that. But that discussion is endless and not productive. In the end, there are different ideas about Quake, and that is OK. Freedom!
So let it be very clear, RMQ is its own animal and is not trying to be an extension of Quake in the same way as Quoth. It is accurately described as the team's vision of the Quake universe (isn't every mapper here taking the same liberty of having his vision realized?), but it stopped slavishly copying the original long ago.
A project such as this could not survive for as long if the design goal was so narrow and allowed so little room for modification (because then its creators would effectively be creative slaves to the expectations of others). Remember a large part of the RMQ team are NOT MAPPERS, and even the mappers on the team have their own mental image of Quake that isn't identical all the time. Our way of dealing with that was to allow some episode-specific developments. I believe this makes the game richer, even though it must be kept in check to retain an overall identity to the game. Since this overall identity is the sum of its parts, and not all parts think the same (we're not the Quake mapping Borg), it will differ from vanilla Quake for sure.
It is not "Quake RMX", I'm sorry. I encourage those who want that (and wanting that is entirely OK, don't get me wrong) to get in touch with Kell and contribute to the Quoth series of remakes. Let me say that our map and other sources will be released under some free license (this is a difference to Quoth that suddenly seems entirely logical because Quoth is protective where RMQ is permissive), and I have no objection to people using them for their own purposes. It would be decent to wait with butchering it until after we made our final release, but in principle there is no objection to it. I also don't object to the porting of my maps to Quoth, but I'm personally not interested in the job. ;-)
We try and go for a very similar core gameplay - like I said, kill monsters, push buttons. We don't necessarily stop there, which might be what irks some people. For example, some people bleedin' hate the idea of a laughing hellknight, while I think it adds to its sinister personality. He might even change more in the future.
Let it be its own game, and remember mod is short for modification. It would be fair to judge it on its own terms, not with an expectation of Quoth or "being the Doom2 to Quake's Doom" in mind.
I don't hate anyone for not liking RMQ, it is your good right, but it should be "allowed" to have its own identity please, that's all I ask for.
We gladly take all criticism on board that points out the technical faults of the project, because it makes RMQ better. However at least I am pretty unwilling to do this
continue the same direction as previous rmx maps ie modern/enhanced mapping style with an old fashion gameplay and some quoth qc here and there.
for the reasons I stated above. RMQ is more than a mapping project.
@Baker: No problem, the grunt sounds have been scheduled for replacement for a while, and I know what you're talking about. About IQM; I think IQM (and/or DPM?) would be a better choice for a possible Quake Standard Base than MD3 and MD3 also is no skeletal format (IQM can be animated from CSQC for animation blending and all that jazz, for example).
Yhe1
#76 posted by gb [46.142.15.177] on 2012/01/12 17:30:27
Vanilla Quake *has* fall damage, so turning it off entirely would sort of go against the player's expectation.
#77 posted by Yhe1 [69.198.86.190] on 2012/01/12 17:36:06
You know what I mean
#78 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.2] on 2012/01/12 18:08:45
Well things like models and graphics and sound are not really what was getting at me, more elements of the game's 'feel' which is more about mechanical decisions about how the game plays (things like player capabilities, monster behaviour and abilities etc).
But this is an agree to disagree situation about what you think adds or detracts from a given experience, and since you confirm that the project is supposed to be it's own beast there isn't much to be gained on discussing that, so myself I'll leave it. Will still follow the project though :)
So RMq = Working Title
#79 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/12 18:34:18
For the record: I don't hate the idea of a laughing hellknight, I just hate that it sounds like a French pirate's Hohoho. It doesn't sound mean enough, and the unsheathing sounds more of a saber than a heavy sword.
This is something that also troubles me with the other sounds. The Ogre, for example, should sound meaner too, deeper voice. It's not a bad idea to have them talk in such a moronic way, but the sound has to back up their posture. Right now, it reminds more of goblins or something. Likewise, the grunts sound too skinny, if you know what I mean. I always imagine them as (according to the manual) braindead killing machines whose implants only allow for mindless grunting and other primal sounds.
The enforcers are ok, though they could be a tad more muffled considering their heavy masks.
Something for guiding the player: in E2M1RQ, where you have to drain the water, I didn't immediately realize how to exit the pit, because I didn't spot the ladder. It seemed like draining the water would make the elevator lower. This could be solved by placing a light, colored or better slightly flickering, next to the ladder to make it easier to see - right now it's fairly dark.
In E3M3RQ, where you have to push four buttons to open the exit gate, I had problems finding the fourth one beyond the slime pit, and only discovered the leap of face bit by chance. There should be something on the other side that catches the players attention, makes him realize there's something interesting or important there. Maybe also a subtle ominous sound near the edge to encourage him to jump. Because as it is, players, especially less-skilled ones, don't readily jump into a slimepit with no visible way out (after all, they learn that slime is a hazard that has to be avoided).
Freedom
#80 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/12 18:38:03
Simple solution to appease more classic players would be, and I'm sure I've suggested that already, to release the complete game in several paks. One with all the essential stuff, one with all non-essential sounds (high-res replacements), one with all QRP textures; and a detailed description in the readme. This way players who wish to keep it classic can rename or remove the extra stuff and play the game without this potential source of conflict.
#81 posted by Spirit [80.171.29.142] on 2012/01/12 18:45:08
Is the Linux engine borked or am I stupid?
Mod_LoadBrushModel: maps/e2m1rq.bsp has wrong version number (1112756274 should be 29)
37c955a4cfe94f02541b1e0aafb624cf RMQEngine-Linux32
a912586e7c357c0ffb380d3f91b3d240 rmqwinter11/maps/e2m1rq.bsp
#82 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/12 19:04:46
Hmmm. BSP version number 1112756274. That's a new one! I'm no genius, but I would say that either:
A - something has become corrupted
B - there is an engine bug
If it's corrupted, you could try and download it again I guess. :(
Negke - thanks :)
Pick And Choose Options
#83 posted by gb [46.142.15.177] on 2012/01/12 19:06:24
Negke: Thanks for pointing out the problems there.
Release in pick-and-choose parts: While worth discussing, unfortunately what appears to be different ingredients are highly interconnected.
Some examples:
- Monsters require the progs.dat to function correctly; however the progs automatically comes with all the gameplay changes. The progs also in turn requires other ingredients to be present, for example it precaches sounds when a map is loaded...
- Maps also require the progs in the same way unless "ported to Quoth" or something.
- Monsters use completely new sounds that vanilla Quake or Quoth do not contain. Footsteps; taunt sounds; drowning or burning sounds; spell effect sounds; talking sounds.
- NPCs and so on require completely new sounds in the same way.
- Maps require tons of new ambient sounds in the same way. Custom mapping entities might require new sounds and of course the progs.
- RMQ will have a story, and at least 4 different player characters. All of those require sounds.
- Maps require tons of new textures, not all of which have fully realized low-res counterparts. Technically, a low-res texture in RMQ is only a placeholder - it could be just a picture of Goofy or whatever, since it is never seen in game, and I can't be arsed to make great low-res textures if they are never actually seen. That would require development time and resources that we don't *have*.
In short, it gets very difficult very quickly to separate something that could be packaged as individual parts.
Spirit: The Linux build included in the installer is old; I'm sorry, please try this one:
http://icculus.org/remakequake/rmq...
I hope that works for you.
#84 posted by Willem [199.255.40.36] on 2012/01/12 19:55:51
"- RMQ will have a story, and at least 4 different player characters. All of those require sounds."
"That would require development time and resources that we don't *have*."
I think I see somewhere you could recover some time. Seriously, I can't remember the last time I thought, "Man, Quake really needs a better story". That's because I have never thought that.
Willem
#85 posted by gb [46.142.15.177] on 2012/01/12 20:19:27
The story (stories) actually slowly developed out of some mixed gameplay ideas that we accumulated;
- wanting both male and female player models, and an enforcer player character, and wanting identities for them;
- having 4 bosses, some of them pretty mystical, plus Shub-Niggurath;
- key events in episodes that I don't want to reveal yet;
- having new monsters and slowly developing something like "cults" or "factions" among the monster lineup (a bit like Quoth's "Death Brigade" but deeper), and wanting an identity for them;
- having more of Lovecraft's pantheon in the game;
- needing to tie it all together.
It wasn't really that we one day decided "OMG! We need a story!" but that we wanted to do a number of things that would be nice to tie together as parts of the same... story. It grew organically, instead of being decreed while sitting on the shitter. This is again due to how the team and the development works.
Gb Stop Divulging Secrets
#86 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/12 20:23:31
... decreed while sitting on the shitter.
Hi Willem.
#87 posted by onetruepurple [89.79.96.4] on 2012/01/12 20:30:07
You do realise you don't need cutscenes or any more "high quality" voice acting to tell a story, right?
Hi Willem :)
#88 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/12 20:44:05
#89 posted by Willem [199.255.40.36] on 2012/01/12 21:03:54
Hi. Good? Everyone doesn't need to say hi, let's stay on topic. :)
#90 posted by mh [89.19.74.226] on 2012/01/12 21:07:38
Quake is like the blind men and the elephant - if you ask 10 different people you'll get 10 different answers.
The intention is not to try please everybody, because if you do that you'll just end up pleasing nobody. A consequence of that intention that should hopefully be obvious is that not everybody will be pleased.
It's also important to remember that RMQ is very clearly envisioned as being more than just maps and gameplay. RMQ is a toolkit, a bunch of odds and ends that people can take from and reuse as they themselves see fit. The maps and gameplay presented in the demos just happen to be what one particular group of people have done with that toolkit, but they are in no way, shape or form prescriptive.
An irony that is not lost on me is that Quoth makes several radical (and sometimes breaking) changes to Quake style, atmosphere and gameplay, but yet is accepted. Discuss.
#91 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.2] on 2012/01/12 21:47:24
k I'm curious now what radical or breaking things Quoth did?
The key problem with Quoth is that it's not open to the community, which is a huge shame :(
#92 posted by Ankh [88.199.103.6] on 2012/01/12 22:11:03
I take it back
It plays very well. And I have enjoyed it.
Standard maps with rmq.
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
Perhaps
#93 posted by Tronyn [24.79.201.144] on 2012/01/12 22:55:39
perhaps illogically and preemptively, I'm going to defend any changes you guys made. You'd have to go really far for me to be pissed off, ie far enough for me not to see why you might have made said changes in addition to violating whatever admittedly subject, personal and fragmentary ideas I might have about what Quake "should" be - that's not MY beowulf, that's not MY king arthur!
you guys are the creators, you can do what you want. I don't understand people who think otherwise; it reminds me of nasty family infighting over my grandfather's farm. Yes everyone is attached to it but the person currently working on it can do what he wants.
That said, I like how open you guys are to technical, rather than ideological, feedback.
Subject Should Be Subjective In Last Post
#94 posted by Tronyn [24.79.201.144] on 2012/01/12 23:01:56
you know what I mean
I guess we all feel like we're shareholders in a way, but that feeling is emotional not rational.
Here Are My Glitchy Pics...
#95 posted by distrans [149.144.9.73] on 2012/01/12 23:38:49
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
Not My Beowulf
#96 posted by gb [46.142.15.177] on 2012/01/13 01:02:51
k I'm curious now what radical or breaking things Quoth did?
Me, too.
The key problem with Quoth is that it's not open to the community, which is a huge shame :(
QuakeC is not rocket science. Quoth is no exception; very little in mods like Quoth is genuinely new. Make of that what you will.
#97 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.2] on 2012/01/13 01:17:15
I have enough trouble finding the time to make maps, I ain't gonna spend more time making an entire mod to go with them, especially since I only want to implement some minor stuff :p
#98 posted by gb [46.142.15.177] on 2012/01/13 01:41:30
Then why not ask Kell if you can use Quoth as the base for your mod? That's what ijed did for warpspasm and it worked.
Impressed By Linux Performance
#99 posted by mwh [120.136.5.22] on 2012/01/13 03:15:18
I mean, this is just an intel sandybridge GPU in a laptop and it's all very smooth, no slowdown at all at 1920x1080.
As to the maps, it's nice so far, but I haven't really discovered why e2m1rq is named after e2m1 yet :-) It's also a bit dark and confusing in places, although I haven't got lost really. It reminds me more of Slave to a Machine than e2m1 so far, I guess that's not necessarily a bad thing. Not sure what the cutscenes are for.
100th Comment Is All *mine*
#100 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/13 04:11:44
Hi Willem! ;)
#101 posted by gb [46.142.15.177] on 2012/01/13 04:55:09
One way or another, we at least got willem out of hiding.
OS X Sort Of Runs
#102 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/13 10:53:10
From the little I was able to play, I really liked what I saw of the graphics.
I got the Mac OS X build to compile via:
1. adding gl_vertex.c to the project (wasn't present)
2. XCode wanted me to correct several "Did you mean 'PF ... ARBPROC' instead?' So I used auto-correct to fix these.
3. Since I am using Xcode 4.2 on OSX 10.7 Lion, I had to go to Build Settings and set the target SDK to 10.4 or maybe 10.6 and then do "Validate Settings".
This info is for SleepWalkr who might be able to better build the OS X version considering his QuakeSpasm and FitzQuake SDL experience.
My build suffered some sort of bluish tint on the screen. It regularly crashes several seconds into the RMQ E2M1RQ demo. I got a little of E3M1RQ to play and then crashed my Mac hard.
The lighting looks awesome.
So ... what are the "right" command line parameters for startup? Maybe this is part of it.
Either way, maybe I need to down Quakespasm 0.85.6 to play that to see if the issues were a result of my setup (I get a blue tint when running Quakespasm compiled by myself ..).
For Completeness ...
#103 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/13 11:01:13
Since I experienced a crash, it could be the video card:
AMD Radeon HD 6490M 256 MB
Baker
#104 posted by SleepwalkR [80.187.110.16] on 2012/01/13 11:41:33
Thanks for the info, I'm looking into a Mac build as well.
#105 posted by mh [137.191.242.106] on 2012/01/13 11:45:04
I mean, this is just an intel sandybridge GPU in a laptop and it's all very smooth, no slowdown at all at 1920x1080.
That is really really awesome to hear.
Special voodoo beans were added to the engine to ensure that it would be able to do this, with some Intel-specific workarounds in place. Nothing that reduces quality, mind, just stuff that Intel needs to give it a helping hand.
e2m1rq is disconcerting at first, yeah, but it will all come clear as you get there. I think what Ricky's done here is a little left of field but a valid design decision that genuinely gives you something to have fun with.
I think it also holds the current record for "largest Quake BSP ever", clocking in at over 22mb. If anyone wants to try an engine-breaker map, this is the new yardstick.
Actually 22MB Is Fastvis
#106 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/13 12:15:30
This on is 16/17 fullvis (but then there's the lit I guess, which is seperate)
It's got about 130 lightmaps or something though, which is huge :o
It's not got 1000 monsters in it though. About 300 on hard I think, maybe not quite :)
But that is quite a low figure for a map of this size (a few more wouldn't hurt I think)
Btw
#107 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/13 13:38:52
Anyone else notice interlacing of liquid surfaces as they warp? mh to the rescue!
Functional OS X Build (Intel + PPC)
#108 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/13 14:25:06
quake-1.com/docs/mods/RMQEngine_Ba...
2 changed source files (glquake.h, gl_vidsdl.c) included in zip
Let's Try URL Again ...
#109 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/13 14:27:36
http://www.quake-1.com/docs/mods/R...
2 Changed Source Files (glquake.h, Gl_vidsdl.c)
#110 posted by mh [137.191.242.106] on 2012/01/13 15:08:31
Cool, I'll diff them with mine and we'll see if we can get a single source base that compiles on everything.
Anyone else notice interlacing of liquid surfaces as they warp? mh to the rescue!
Liquid surfs should warp clean as the warp is done in a fragment shader. A possible explanation might be z-fighting between liquid surfs if a bmodel is overlapping with a world surf (or surfs). If you can give a reproduction case we'll check it out.
#111 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/13 15:26:04
http://negke.slipgateconstruct.com...
I think every surface is affected. Warp is probably the wrong term here. I don't mean the underwater effect, but the animation of the *liquid texture.
#112 posted by gb [46.142.29.125] on 2012/01/13 17:38:06
If anyone wants to try an engine-breaker map, this is the new yardstick.
Well, let's see how long it lasts, shall we.
;)
#113 posted by RickyT23 [81.155.201.207] on 2012/01/13 17:41:41
#114 posted by Ankh [88.199.103.6] on 2012/01/13 22:22:44
e3m1rq demo. Very good map and very satisfying gameplay.
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
#115 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.10] on 2012/01/14 01:11:24
I did like the organ thing btw, but I have to admit it reminded me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KE...
#116 posted by mh [109.79.207.103] on 2012/01/14 01:21:02
I think every surface is affected. Warp is probably the wrong term here. I don't mean the underwater effect, but the animation of the *liquid texture.
Old NVIDIA?
E3m2 With Some Serious Bugs
#117 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.219.61] on 2012/01/14 02:12:58
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
E3m1 I overwrote so no demos, but there is an issue: you can get locked in a lava filled reactor area, but it's still possible to jump to the lift and get out with some precise jumping.
I used a pushable to jump over the pile of crates with a robo-arm, skipping part of the map, but its cool, don't remove such way. The woman voice was hard to understand or hear at all sometimes, needs subs.
I kinda liked this map xcept some lighting...
Pew-Pew is very annoying with unfinished model, screenshake and its sound. Worst blaster/lazer I've ever seen. And its overpowered, why give it at e3m1 at all instead of NG. Both maps need shells.
All maps have spots where you drop down taking damage for no good reason.
I play with gl_polyblend 0 and blur disabled btw. Missing gl_flashblend for disabling light blobs on lazers.
#118 posted by mh [109.79.207.103] on 2012/01/14 02:17:33
k I'm curious now what radical or breaking things Quoth did?
Play the Quoth start map. Jump in one of the torch thingies in the spawn area. Do the same in ID1. Odd, isn't it?
Those knight things that continually shout "heuuu-arrrgghh!" at you. Is shouting "heuuu-arrrgghh!" Quakey? Next they'll be telling you that your mother was a hamster, etc. Or saying "Ni!"
Where are the animating lightstyles? ID1 is stuffed full of animating lightstyles. Why do community maps avoid these?
Monsters. Quake monsters don't look like Quoth monsters (honourable exception: Voreling). Quake monsters are animal, bestial, unintelligent, savage. Eyeless, primitive, primal, etc. Killing machines with next to no setience in there. Quoth monsters are not like that. 40 billion variations on the Grunt and a few knights that shout "heuuu-arrrgghh!". Don't think so.
Will I go on?
#119 posted by onetruepurple [89.79.96.4] on 2012/01/14 02:30:16
Jump in one of the torch thingies in the spawn area. Do the same in ID1. Odd, isn't it?
This is caused by a trigger_hurt, not the flame entity.
Those knight things that continually shout "heuuu-arrrgghh!" at you. Is shouting "heuuu-arrrgghh!" Quakey?
More Quakey than the Enforcer telling me to suck it down? Also, one of these is a hoarse, throaty sound befitting the rest of the Quake sounds, and the other is a guy screaming into a tin bucket (guess which).
Quake monsters are animal, bestial, unintelligent, savage. Eyeless, primitive, primal, etc. Killing machines with next to no setience in there.
Pretty sure you had a ticket called "Monster AI"...
Fladjern
#120 posted by gb [46.142.29.125] on 2012/01/14 02:35:33
It would be helpful if you or anyone else could give an example of good sounding lazer blasters in FPS games, so I have an idea what people perceive as a good laser/blaster sound. Unfortunately these things are hugely subjective, and no one has ever heard an actual laser blaster in action...
Pretty Sure You Had A Ticket Called "Monster AI"...
#121 posted by mh [109.79.207.103] on 2012/01/14 02:40:06
Pretty damn sure I didn't.
Suck It Down
#122 posted by gb [46.142.29.125] on 2012/01/14 02:48:13
"Suck it down" is a Romero homage, something he allegedly liked to taunt his deathmatch opponents with. As for why the enforcer would say it, it's a friggin' game - why not? Romero himself still puts lots of homages into his games even today. Because they're games, not the Qu'ran.
Same goes for calling the player "n00b" in a monster taunt wav. It refers to deathmatch, which Quake brought to the masses.
But you know all this, right.
Pow Pow Pow
#123 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.10] on 2012/01/14 03:02:50
Q2 hyperblaster is too shrill but it sounds like it has power behind it. Feeling is enhanced by the mechanical sound of the gun turning over.
I reckon your best source for inspiration would be UT. The plasma gun sounds are awesome (especially the secondary fire, that thing sounds like a piece of industrial machinery) and the shockrifle is okay. You could also take a peek at UT3/ut2k4 though I forget there sounds as they aren't imprinted on my brain like UT :E
I dunno perhaps a guiding principle could be "Would this sound fit into a Megaman game or cartoon. If yes, it's not suitable" :p
#124 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [86.190.187.10] on 2012/01/14 03:08:15
As for why the enforcer would say it, it's a friggin' game
Because a monster using a cheesy deathmatch taunt rips the dark, brooding Lovecraftian atmosphere to pieces. You might as well have your grunts shouting "This is my BOOMSTICK".
It might be amusing as a 'ooh lets chuck this in' but think what effect it's having on the tone of the game.
"Hey what's it like fighting a shambler?"
"Shocking."
This Is Caused By A Trigger_hurt, Not The Flame Entity.
#125 posted by mh [109.79.135.118] on 2012/01/14 03:13:06
So what?
Facts are: the Quoth team made a variation on the Start map. They changed many elements of it. It looks and plays different to the original. Where's the vitriol against them?
If what one wants is classic Quake, there is an option available. It's called: pop the CD in your drive, run Setup, double-click on "quake.exe", select "Singleplayer - New Game" and go for it. Nobody will hold it against you.
There are people who are genuinely interested in providing constructive feedback and comments on this, and there are people who hate because hating is what they do.
Let's get this clear. I wasn't invited to join this project; I muscled my way into it (and that, by the way, is an option that's available to anybody who genuinely wants to contribute). Yes, I'm an unashamed fanboy, but also: that doesn't mean I agree 100% with everything. I have my own tastes in Quake (I couldn't give two hoots about gameplay, etc, I just like looking at pretty architecture) and I'm strictly a backroom techie person. But I'm prepared to swallow my pride, subdue my ego, and accept things I might not like for the opportunity to contribute to something like this.
Whether you agree or disagree with the style and gameplay, you do have to admit that this is taking things to another level. If that level is something you don't like then you have options available. You can spill hate over the forums, you can join in and try influence things, you can do something you think is better yourself, or you can do nothing. Which of these options is/are the constructive one(s)? Which ones result in you spending negative energy on something you don't care much for to begin with?
Rant over.
Replacing Vs New
#126 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.219.61] on 2012/01/14 04:17:27
I have to say I'm not against new things overall. But when you replace something old you better think twice and then make sure its better AND similar. The whole quake 'replacement scene' is quite ugly, full of low quality hacks that think increasing the resolution, number of colors and polys alone would make it better not caring about quality, consistency, style and atmosphere of the original.
If your mod was about more new\original stuff it would feel better, but when you replace something already established and accepted you will receive a lot of criticism, unless its absolutely an improvement and fits in.
For example, those new sounds wouldn't be bad if they were used for the new monsters, but put over the old ones they make things seem worse. Were there people complaining about the new animei-sh looking flying robots with ears? I bet far less than about the questionable changes to the old stuff.
No one really opposed the new monsters in Neh, but everyone hated new 'AI' of the old ones.
As for Pew-pew
Sound is not the worst part of the gun... but it's a cheap fx that associates with old synths or toys rather than a cool gun and gets unpleasant with repeats. Does Scourge' laser use the same sound? cause it didnt annoy me much there or in Tronyn`s mod.
There is a certain range of frequencies around 1-3k Hz I believe that could sound unpleasant to human ear, where its most sensetive.
Not a big fan of q2 HPB sound btw. Fallout had some good sounding lasers\plasma (but those where single shot).
I Hate To Break It To You, But
#127 posted by gb [46.142.29.125] on 2012/01/14 04:32:55
Because a monster using a cheesy deathmatch taunt rips the dark, brooding Lovecraftian atmosphere to pieces.
After you just died violently anyway and probably went "Fuck" or something similar, yeah.
I don't want to discuss this to death (much like "what is Quake"), but obituaries like "Player discharges into the water" and "Player sucks it down" already do the same. See, it is already in the original game. In single player, too. Ours is just the audio version of that.
Not to mention giant cubic boxes with the Nine Inch Nails band logo on them, absolutely huge flashing red buttons, phallic looking weapons (their intention being reinforced by the deathmatch obituaries), and rocket jumping (surviving it, no less) are not very Lovecraftian either.
Not one bit.
(And I think Quake's zombies are probably more inspired by 80's zombie flicks than Lovecraft, considering when the game was made. Let's not mention Rottweilers, who are straight from Castle Wolfenstein and not the pages of Lovecraft. I could go on.)
Besides id games have a tradition of cheesiness, see Romero's face being the end boss in Doom2 (ho-hum, now you have to defeat me, John Romero), nazi-themed bonus levels, dopefishes and all that. In single player. There is a lot of "don't take this too serious, guys" in id games which is conveniently overlooked. Anything remaking Quake would do good to incorporate some cheesy humour.
I mean you go massacring hordes of monsters with a chain saw (no one complained about the presence of a chain saw in our Lovecraft simulator - of course not, because chain saws were already in vanilla Quake, wielded by one of those Lovecraftian freak-show members), their chunky gibs theatrically splashing around the room, and you call that brooding?
Are we playing the same Quake? ;-)
Thanks for laser gun references, will check.
Just Replayed M1 On Hard
#128 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.219.61] on 2012/01/14 05:21:29
Its too easy once you know what's where. Was running max HP max armor, most of the time (even w/o the secret hunting) so even the shards wouldnt pick... but then I found "The pentagram of trololo". Very funny.
I have to say SG is really OP it kills even fiends in 5 shots. And then you have a GL to boot, which is a bit overkill for base map I think.
Couldn't find shredder to my disappointment - is it random or not present on skill2 at all? Btw not so fond of rnd items, cause something like MH is almost usless compared to RA.
Found another showstopper: you can fall into the pit from which an ogre(or a spawn on hard)rises with no way out.
And fianlly: corpse removal code please. Would really help with performance.
#129 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.219.61] on 2012/01/14 05:36:46
"j00 s4wk n00b, unistall quake!11 L0L" *corpse humping*
#130 posted by stevenaaus [42.241.86.200] on 2012/01/14 11:11:34
Special voodoo beans were added to the engine to ensure that it would be able to do this, with some Intel-specific workarounds in place
Do you guys have a public svn ? Or could you mail me the Intel tweaks. Cheers.
It's Like Remakes Of A Classic Movies
#131 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/14 11:19:40
The kids love them, the flashy stuff, the older ,audience dislikes them for the and disparities and nostalgic incongruence.
As for the "Lovecraftian" in Quake, to be quite honest, there isn't much apart from a few names. But I think we all agree on what the Lovecraft synonym stands for in this game, otherworldliness, acrane magic, and strange eyeless monsters. (Fiends do have eyes, however. HI SHAMBLER!)
mh: GTX 460, latest (beta) drivers, Win7
I Should Learn To Use The Preview Button
#132 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/14 11:20:37
Pretty Fantastic And > Warpspasm
#133 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/14 13:16:07
Wow ... this just keeps getting better and better. So far this sticks out as better than Warpspasm, Travail or Q2. The Warpspasm/Travail thing feels weird to say because I never really expected anything to pass Warpspasm or Travail.
The presentation is top notch, the fact it uses high resolution textures, ... sheesh. Probably 16 other things. The lighting.
Here is what bothers me ... and this isn't about RMQ:
1. RMQ has the word coop written all over it. However, being NetQuake that would realistically require a net code overhaul. I have spent a great deal of time thinking about how to pull that off or doing a DPP7 lite protocol. I feel that these kinds of things might happen this year (50/50 chance?).
2. The king-size maps almost require coop to correctly play. So many monsters and so much map size --- I mean seriously large maps -- would almost require a couple of players to find everything.
3. Might actually require coop for best experience. Watch other players do things from time to time instead of having to figure out everything yourself.
Plus this feels very replayable.
Please tell me this has been tested in coop and won't crash due to the camera action or what not ...
I have to admit when I heard about huge level sizes I wasn't so sure that was a good idea because generally I never thought map size was everything. But these maps have tons of detail and the colored lighting and high resolution textures make them look great.
Still, I think without people being able to coop the maps over the internet, the maximum potential of demo 3 won't be hit.
@ Ghd Fladjern Tilbud
#134 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/14 14:31:57
Er - I tested the map on skill 3, and no-one has been man enough to feed me a nightmare demo. I think I would like to see your nightmare demo.
Known bugs:
1 - it is possible to break the end sequence by doing an Ankh near the start
2 - it is possible to re-fill the cavern once you have emptied it
3 - the killcount is wrong by one monster (I have figured out what causes this, it will be fixed)
4 - it is possible to to get stuck in the room with the ogres in two different ways
5 - if you fall off the platform at the end sequence, you have to travel quite a long distance to get back up again
6 - there is some zfighting at the tunnel entrance near the bridge in the large outside area
Luckily this stuff is W.I.P.
I had optimised the map to conform to the 657## verts limit, but since that was doubled a few months back thanks to the work of MH, I have since added a whole bunch of new 'stuff' to the map, and I am currently at the 74000ish mark, but I wont hit another limit until I reach about 130000 verts. So basically this map will be improved a shed-load before release. Stuff will be added, improved, bugs will be ironed out.
I appreciate your feedback genuinely, I was expecting a lot of comments about some of the known issues, and just generally because that is what happens when you release maps - but I have learned for a long time now that feedback is all good, if you take it the right way. It's all vaguely useful, even if it just re-iterates the point that "Item X, or SFX B seemed to go down like a lead balloon, maybe we should reconsider our options.
Believe you me, aside from the general musing, advocation and opinions being thrown around on this thread, our private forums have been BUZZING with creative activity on the back of this release, our intention is to get this project whipped right into some kind of real shape, we are listening to everyone.
Ultimately, we are going to do what WE want to do, but what that is changes, posts are moved, peoples opinions about ideas shift and change, and the evolution of the project has been quite profound up to this point alone, and I don't see it lessening any time soon.
Intel Voodoo Beans
#135 posted by mh [109.79.169.120] on 2012/01/14 14:42:53
Do you guys have a public svn ? Or could you mail me the Intel tweaks. Cheers.
Public SVN here: svn://svn.icculus.org/remakequake/...
Be warned that the engine source code won't translate to any other Quake codebase without serious surgery.
OK, that out of the way.
Traditional Quake codebases do a LOT of work in software on the CPU. For the renderer much of this was transferred to the GPU instead - light animations, light updates in general, MDL animation and frame interpolation are all bottlenecks that were addressed. This allowed the data to be kept relatively static and in VBOs, which allowed for the renderer to avoid pipeline stalls associated with updating this type of data at runtime.
Much of this requires bumping the hardware requirements to a level that may be uncomfortable for some. That was a tradeoff that we discussed at length and are happy to accept. The current hardware requirements have settled around OpenGL 1.5 with the ARB program extensions and 5 or more texture units.
Even before this bump there were things done to improve on Intel but which are no longer in the code. These may be of more use to people, so I'll discuss them fairly generally.
A move from OpenGL immediate mode to vertex arrays was a very early change that saw useful gains in MDL rendering performance. Each MDL can be drawn with a single glDrawElements call. The vertex arrays needed for this can be built manually and at runtime if desirec, and it needs nothing beyond what's available in OpenGL 1.1. Moving that up to the next level involved putting everything for MDLs into static VBOs - no dynamic data is sent from CPU to GPU, the vertex pointers are set to offsets into the VBO for each frame (or pair of frames that must be lerped between) and blendweight and shadelight are sent as shader params. A switch from FFP arrays to vertex attrib arrays was an aesthethic choice moreso than a necessity, and was heavily influenced by a loathing of glClientActiveTexture (glMultiTexCoordPointer would have been a better API design choice).
In all cases, GL_UNSIGNED_SHORT indexes were preferred to GL_UNSIGNED_INT as the latter is not actually supported in hardware by many older parts, causing your vertex pipeline to drop to software emulation.
I believe that MDL handling can be gotten to somewhere around 75% of the full increased performance (drawing 400 knights went from 50fps to 300fps) just by making the vertex arrays and glDrawElements switch.
Something similar to this can be done for brush surfaces, but the gains are slightly more marginal owing to the need to dynamically build (and rebuild) a lot of data due to PVS and frustum switching.
This is getting long so I'll save the lighting changes for part 2.
Intel Voodoo Beans - Part 2 - Lighting Changes
#136 posted by mh [109.79.169.120] on 2012/01/14 15:16:54
OK, this one no longer has a direct descendant in the current codebase, so I'm largely working from memory here.
I'd been aware for at least 10 years that dynamic light updates were a huge bottleneck in the Quake engine, and maybe 2 years ago I sat down and did a lot of work, testing and experimenting around what could be done about that.
Two main things came out of that.
First was a change of the glTexSubImage2D params from GL_RGB/GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE to GL_BGRA/GL_UNSIGNED_INT_8_8_8_8_RE... I have a test program (which I should probably put on the RMQ SVN) that tests various combinations of params for dynamic texture updates, and these two invariably came out fastest. The improvement on Intel was by a very wide margin - time to update 16 256x256 textures went from ~40ms to ~3ms. NVIDIA was 6x faster (18ms to 3ms), and - oddly enough - it seemed to make little or no difference to ATI/AMD, which locked at about 16/17/18ms irrespective of params. I haven't restested this on more modern AMD parts yet, but I have done some informal benching of D3D9 LockRect/UnlockRect performance which indicates that things are largely unchanged.
This fixed update times in glTexSubImage2D itself, but the pipeline was still stalling as GPU resources which were currently in use needed to be updated from the CPU, so a second change made was to bulk update all lightmaps that were changed during a frame at the start of the next frame. No glTexSubImage2D calls were used on-demand, but all light updates were deferred until after everything had been drawn, and this applied equally to the world and to brush models.
A tradeoff here was that light updates were out of step by 1 frame, but in practice it was not even noticeable.
The requirement here was for OpenGL 1.2 or the packed pixels and BGRA extensions.
Further experiments were around using GL_RGB10A2 formats to get more bits of precision and more dynamic range, as well as using the alpha channel of a GL_BGRA texture to store some HDR info, but they didn't go very far with RMQ because another problem had arose in the meantime.
However, these on their own will resolve 99% of the "dynamic light updates are slow and sometimes the engine runs faster if you switch off multitexture" problems that exist with current maps (and that I believe are a large part of the reason why community maps don't make much use of animating lightstyles).
The other problem that arose was in relation to a large (and as yet unreleased) map which made very heavy use of animating lightstyles - almost every surface had some kind of light animation on it. Some simple r_speeds tests revealed that most of the time we were getting 2-4 ms in the renderer, but 10 times per second that shot to 12-20 ms, and the criminal was light updates. Gameplay was very jerky and uneven; not enjoyable at all.
The eventual solution involved blending multiple textures (up to 3) on the GPU and completely ditching glTexSubImage2D light updates. Dynamic lights were done using additive vertex lighting (which was lower quality but we felt it to be acceptable as these lights are so short-lived; you can still see the lower quality in certin cases and if you switch r_lightmap 1 on though).
This moved frametimes from 2-4 ms to 3-5 ms in general cases, but it also meant that the engine was totally immune to the imapact of lightmap updates. Even though overall perf was lower, it was smooth and consistent and with no hitching or frametime spikes.
It also enabled the standard lightmap texture size to go to 512x512 which increased my ability to batch up brush surfaces - double win.
I've since written a more evolved version of this code (using D3D11/SM4) that handles dynamic lighting per-pixel, but it needs more shader instructions, dynamic branching, bitwise operators in shaders, increased constants register space and other higher hardware requirements that are not suitable for use with RMQ. It might be fun to make an "ultra" version of RMQ using a GLSL port of it sometime though, but other priorites must take precedence.
Ricky
#137 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/14 15:29:26
I thought the "low" monster density in parts was good. It makes more sense, more atmospheric, in such a level. It would have been less so (plus probably frustrating) if every bit of space was jam-packed with enemies.
Some calmer moments improve or reinforce the setting. For example, I remember one situation, I think in the E2M1 part or shortly before, where I dropped down into some sort of basement area with no monsters or items but columns and beams. The area isn't particularly interesting, but it feels like it adds to the sense of place. Perhaps add a few low blueish lights (16x16) there.
Runaway Loop Error Disconnect
#138 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.219.61] on 2012/01/14 15:33:06
e2m1rq skill 3 when I shoot those 3 expl crates shortly after the start
same thing 2 times in a row
Thats A New One!
#139 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/14 16:24:04
Negke
#140 posted by gb [46.142.29.125] on 2012/01/14 16:46:44
The kids love them, the flashy stuff, the older ,audience dislikes them for the and disparities and nostalgic incongruence.
No. The average age in the RMQ team is surprisingly high, none of the people designing the game are noobs, and there are veterans of the community in the team as well, plus some of us have made landmark Quake maps or mods. This argument holds zero water, I'm sorry.
But I think we all agree on what the Lovecraft synonym stands for in this game,
Hah, an appeal to the audience. First time I hear it described as just a synonym, though. This, as well as the 3kHz audio frequency thing, is splitting hairs and grasping at straws. If Lovecraft isn't what you actually mean, then say what you mean instead. ;-)
otherworldliness, acrane magic, and strange eyeless monsters.
This could as well be a wishy-washy description of AD&D. None of it refutes my point that Quake is mainly a splatter-action game with quite some cheesy humour in it, even if some of the surroundings look like some sort of castle and there's an "evil altar" every once in a while. Much less does it refute the point that it's OK for the enforcer to say "suck it down" after the player died. It makes perfect sense.
As for the "Lovecraftian" in Quake, to be quite honest, there isn't much apart from a few names.
So we agree that there isn't actually that much Lovecraft in Quake, yes? Awesome, then we can let that rest.
Nm Demo
#141 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.219.61] on 2012/01/14 16:50:42
I think I got 4 random armors and sng this time http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
Gb
#142 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/14 16:59:03
You completely misinterpreted my post. It wasn't meant as criticism.
Negke
#143 posted by gb [46.142.29.125] on 2012/01/14 17:02:30
Awesome. In that case, sorry for misinterpreting it.
#144 posted by Spirit [89.204.137.147] on 2012/01/14 17:09:25
oh come on, I just wanted to make a snarky comment about mental age and stuff.
Rofl
#145 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/14 17:19:46
Gb
#146 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.219.61] on 2012/01/14 17:50:52
It's not grasping out of ass, its science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound... see: "The physical hypothesis".
There is no humor in a game acting like a brat from halo mp xboxlive and insulting the player if you didn't get the other post. Couldn't care less about Lovecraft in a q2-like base levels, but gamedev being an ass and insulting the player is never good.
Nice Demo
#147 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/14 17:51:12
Thanks for that. It was great you play a lot like me. I should do a demo showing all of the secrets :) I think you missed 1 monster, the other two are because of the '1' monster I spoke of before being 2 on skills 2 and 3 :|
Well played!
????
#148 posted by mh [109.79.169.120] on 2012/01/14 18:07:13
Part of ID's original design concept for Quake was to have the Ogre pissing on the player after killing him. I'd suggest that in the intervening years maybe some have evolved their own strange idea of "what Quake is" that's not necessarily correct.
#149 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [82.16.80.21] on 2012/01/14 18:26:12
gb you make a good point about the fact that silly kill mesages were already in the game, so I have tried to think why that doesn't bother me... I think it is something about the breaking of illusion between the world of the game and the game itself, which does sound very fuzzy, but here is what I mean:
The messages that pop up to tell the player he 'got eviscerated by a fiend' is a message from the game itself along with 'you got some shells', the games master of our D&D campaign is giving us information, sometimes comically. But the Enforcer calling the player a 'noob' is a character within the game suddenly leaping out into the world of internet multiplayer and throwing a cliche at me. An enforcer is part of the world of the game, it is not a gamer in a multiplayer match, who I will spam :}}}}} at
I feel that this is probably why it rubs me personally, and it may totally be something no-one else has a problem with.
And yes, Romero did put his head in Doom 2, and his voice, but they weren't overt. It's a weird easter egg that is disguised in the normal game to not be noticed, like the Rot Fish. Daikatana takes Romero's cheesiness to the extreme and really does feel stupid when your high-pitched crap-japanese-accented sidekick says 'suck it down'. Again, it's a difference between the world the game gives us and the game itself.
I'm really not trying to be pointlessly negative or snarky, and your replies do force me to rationalise my thoughts on it. But they are genuine.
#150 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [82.16.80.21] on 2012/01/14 18:27:21
Part of ID's original design concept for Quake was to have the Ogre pissing on the player after killing him.
Part of the original design was a third person action game where you were Thor. Sometimes stuff that is changed or missed out is a good thing.
I Have To Agree With ZealousQuakeFan
#151 posted by SleepwalkR [92.231.225.15] on 2012/01/14 19:20:26
and I think he made a very good argument that the insult was dished out by the game rather than by the enemy. And even if the "original concept" for the ogre was to piss on the player - it's not in the game, so that doesn't count. I would really prefer it if the enemies don't talk (english, at least). They can eat my corpse or even piss on it, because that would fit with the idea I have of their characters. For me, Quake enemies don't talk to me. At least not in a way that I can understand.
The Enforcer...
#152 posted by mh [109.79.169.120] on 2012/01/14 19:45:26
...in ID Quake talks in English.
/\
#153 posted by necros [99.227.132.108] on 2012/01/14 20:05:41
wow.
You're Right
#154 posted by SleepwalkR [92.231.225.15] on 2012/01/14 20:13:10
but it's still almost unintelligible... and he doesn't taunt me, either. I think the only things he says is "stop" and "you there", is it?
Mh
#155 posted by ijed [164.77.241.129] on 2012/01/14 20:39:22
This is why I like working with smart people.
There's A "HALT!" In There Too If Memory Serves.
#156 posted by mh [109.79.169.120] on 2012/01/14 20:44:32
Going completely off-topic, I reckon those voices are most likely Romero. He was heavily involved in the sound element of the game, and would be a prime candidate.
Hang One
#157 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/14 21:02:20
corpe humping
W00T!?!?!
Ijed
#158 posted by SleepwalkR [92.231.225.15] on 2012/01/14 21:19:35
I guess you don't really have any good counter arguments or are you just being smug and dismissive for the fun of it?
Hook
#159 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.219.61] on 2012/01/14 21:20:03
Whats the bind for it, or does it work at all?
Actually
#160 posted by ijed [164.77.241.129] on 2012/01/14 21:37:56
I´m at work, and don´t have time for your trolling.
The Hook
#161 posted by gb [46.142.0.207] on 2012/01/14 23:55:08
It is "+hook", just like in most old school quake mods. Sorry, we should have given a message; this will be fixed.
Sleepwalkr et al.: You're really counting beans now, right. Just admit that you have no real argument, or you'll descend into pure trolling.
Flatiron: I know that, but it has really little to do with why you don't like the blaster sound. It was a strawman argument, so I said you were grasping at straws to defend your position.
ZQF: I respect your opinion, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
Thor
#162 posted by gb [46.142.0.207] on 2012/01/15 00:18:01
Part of the original design was a third person action game where you were Thor.
Indeed, and so Quake's first mission pack promptly included Thor's mighty hammer, Mjolnir. I think the name "Thor" is actually in there as well. From there, along with a couple other things, it made its way into Quoth (admittedly without the lightning), which as we all agree, does everything right.
Hence, why should RMQ not have ogres pissing on the player? I'll tell you, the only reason was because none of us wanted to model an ogre cock until now. I guess some people here would actually love to debate what a true Ogre cock needs to look like in order to be Quake. More like the rocket launcher, or more Perforatorish?
Hm
#163 posted by ijed [190.22.84.105] on 2012/01/15 01:00:41
We could detect the player name and then, if it corresponds to a certain list make the Ogres have Quad, Pent, and dimension door, and then piss on the head after they gib them...
And
#164 posted by ijed [190.22.84.105] on 2012/01/15 01:01:48
Teabagging could be the non-cock alternative.
#165 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [82.16.91.220] on 2012/01/15 01:03:03
I was actually genuinely curious as to why I have certain feelings and experiences with some mods and games and different ones with others. But apparently no one else cares about really discussing this sort of thing so nm
A Button
#166 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.202.237] on 2012/01/15 01:12:43
So I figured you used _luma instead of fullbrights, but forgot to include them for the buttons, thats why they are not very visible.
How it should looks http://i.imgur.com/AX8f1.jpg it blinks too, so now you wont miss the buttons in the dark.
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/... - unpack into /textures obviously
ZQF
#167 posted by ijed [190.22.84.105] on 2012/01/15 01:15:31
I see where' you're coming from. Things inside the world should ideally only 'know' about their world.
Having said that, no creation is uninfluenced by others. Of course, there's a big difference between Ogres looking like leatherface and monsters using DM taunts.
But, we've all been playing this game a long time now - including these sorts of in-jokes is almost impossible, especially when they were such a part of the original, although to a smaller degree.
Basically, we're making the game much bigger, and not just the maps.
The original shouts by the Enforcer were pretty bad quality and short in length (file size?). Maybe that's what made them less intelligible.
I suppose we could always email Romero to ask him, but 'what would id do?' is a pretty good way of having a completely stagnant design, which results in a shit game.
Think how many 'clones' of other games you've played, and how many were worth the time.
Sad Truth, Jarjar
#168 posted by Spirit [80.171.159.42] on 2012/01/15 01:16:02
The team has demonstrated resistance against most kinds of constructive critic in the past so don't waste your energy trying to help them make it good.
*considering The Title Of The Thing
#169 posted by Spirit [80.171.159.42] on 2012/01/15 01:16:59
but also if I pretend I do not know Quake and look at it as standalone thing
@Spirit
#170 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/15 01:35:55
(This is what I've seen so far ...)
1. These maps might be the best looking Quake maps of all time.
2. Only Tronyn could put more monsters in a map
3. Lots of detail in the environment.
4. Fullbright textures well used.
5. The maps look very well thought out. And they don't look robotic or sterile.
6. The weapons and box models look good. The new monsters look good.
7. The few monster sounds, like the grunts, that I'm not super-fond of, can get lost in the other noises of combat and when they are dead they quit making the noise anyway.
8. The maps are really fantastic with complex stuff in places.
If there is a problem here, I'm not seeing it.
In a lot of ways at least to me, playing this is a pleasant relief:
* It has similar gameplay to Quake
* Isn't fiends and shamblers for the 487th time.
I think 95% of the changes are extremely positive and creative. And these maps are about 2 or 3 times better than I expected. I think the blurs positively add to the feel of playing something new and different.
#171 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [82.16.91.220] on 2012/01/15 01:37:49
Well for the record, I'm not really interested in what Quake was designed to be, or what Romero thinks it was supposed to be, but what it actually became. I think both addon packs are shit. I think Daikatana is shit, but I also think Quake 2 is dull and boring and iD have never produced anything truly brilliant since Quake 1. So clearly removing Romero from iD did affect something. But perhaps at the same time the rest of the iD team prevented some elements that Romero was keen on seeing the light of day, we'll never really know. Romero has it on record he was really against the game they ended up making, as he just saw it as cloning Doom.
The key thing is what qualities the game in the game has in the end, and they must be superb ones because we're all still playing it.
Think about it from the point of view of editing a film. Why did Kubrick decide to remove the pie fight from Dr. Strangelove? What specifically made the narration of Blade Runner so awful it ruined the film?
Hey Now
#172 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.202.237] on 2012/01/15 01:52:14
Crappers
#173 posted by stevenaaus [114.73.64.203] on 2012/01/15 02:21:16
the mission packs are damn good.
@mh
Thans for that man.
If You Guys Seriously Believe That Zqf
#174 posted by nitin [124.148.148.31] on 2012/01/15 03:52:42
didnt make a real argument in his post, that is just stupid.
If you dont want to adopt it, fine. It is your mod after all. But to say that is not a real argument and should be automatically dismissed is silly.
The way I see it from the above posts is this:
The RMQ team, or at least gb and some others, think of quake as an action game with a healthy amount of cheese. And so in their reinterpretation, the level of cheese is being upped in the same proportion as everything else.
A lot of the so called 'dissenters' do not see the alleged cheese and think of quake as a highly atmospheric action game.
Given all that, probably best to go to a final release next.
#175 posted by nitin [124.148.148.31] on 2012/01/15 03:55:09
"The original shouts by the Enforcer were pretty bad quality and short in length (file size?). Maybe that's what made them less intelligible. "
Really, thats counted as an argument and zqf's post is not? If they were meant to be intelligible, short file size or not, they would have been intelligible. Look at the rest of the world, how much of it is intellgible?
Oh
#176 posted by nitin [124.148.148.31] on 2012/01/15 03:56:45
and for the record, I'm looking forward to the final release, if only for the maps.
I just dont like the high and mightiness from both sides of the fence.
?
#177 posted by ijed [190.22.84.105] on 2012/01/15 04:33:03
Seems you read a lot more into my post than I meant.
I never said that ZQF didn't make an argument, or that an idle aside about file quality / length was supposed to be some sort of counter-argument to some post a page or two ago.
And
#178 posted by ijed [190.22.84.105] on 2012/01/15 04:36:49
His opinion is completely validated by how he's presenting it, and the reasoning he's explained.
Ijed
#179 posted by Nitin [49.193.2.60] on 2012/01/15 05:49:24
Read gb's post. He says the argument was clutching at straws. That's an outright dismissal.
#180 posted by Willem [174.109.109.171] on 2012/01/15 13:39:46
"So we agree that there isn't actually that much Lovecraft in Quake, yes? Awesome, then we can let that rest."
This has been suggested time and time again but if you want to avoid these tiresome and redundant arguments, change the name of the project.
"RemakeQuake", as a name, carries a ton of baggage with it.
Kind Of On The Subject
#181 posted by Tronyn [24.79.201.144] on 2012/01/15 14:21:50
I was thinking of naming my giant merged megamod project, when it's out some time this year, "Drake: A Vision of Quake" so as to express that it's one interpretation that plays up certain aspects of the original, especially the medieval thread.
Mac Build
#182 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.191.147] on 2012/01/15 18:40:26
I have built the engine on OS X, and it ran fine with a few minor glitches. Since I can't compare it to the Windows build, I made a demo where I show the glitches. It would be nice if someone could watch it and confirm which of those are known problems and which are specific to this build. One thing I noticed was that the light around the laser beams was very bright and looked odd. It's described in the demo and I have also made a screenshot.
MH, I have also made a patch against r3.485, it would be nice if you could review and apply it. I also had to change a bunch of function pointer types because the compiler would not find them. Everything else works fine. I have also included the UDP networking driver instead of the broken one from my original SDL port.
If anyone else wants to try this build, you have to download the demo from here, unpack it, use the Windows installer to extract the files and place then move the rmqwinter11 folder and the build into your Quake folder.
Ok, here are the files:
OS X build (OS X 10.6+ on 32bit or 64bit systems)
Demo of E2M1RQ with some visual glitches
Odd lighting of enforcer laser beams
Patch against r3.485 for MH
If you run into any problems with this build, report here and I'll see what I can do.
Re: Trolling
#183 posted by gb [46.142.28.144] on 2012/01/15 19:04:29
The team has demonstrated resistance against most kinds of constructive critic in the past so don't waste your energy trying to help them make it good.
This is bullshit; re-read this thread and see how we reacted to serious technical criticism. We are very open towards it. It is quite illuminating that the only things you posted in this thread, Spirit, were obviously meant to portray us in a bad light. That's pure classical trolling.
Nitin: The comment about being clutching at straws was made @ Fladjern, not at ZQF. I said I respected ZQF's opinion but didn't share it. Re-read the thread.
@ all: We have every right to make the kind of game we want to make, due to us being the ones getting off our arse and making it. If you call this attitude high-and-mighty, and if you perhaps think you should be the ones making the game (only with us doing the actual work, you know), then we're not living in the same world. Let's see how many shits id software or Zenimax will give about you when they one day decide to remake Quake.
@ the name: We can name our game what we want, I'm sorry, but deal with it.
If you'll excuse me now, I have work to do. I'll gladly answer any more serious feedback towards the demo, and I'd like to watch more demos, but a lot of you are just wanting to act butthurt and troll, so I'll leave you to that. Not that I expected anything else.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_...
#184 posted by onetruepurple [89.79.96.4] on 2012/01/15 19:23:25
This is bullshit; re-read this thread and see how we reacted to serious technical criticism.
Actually, I read the last demo thread, and apparently barely anything that was universally complained about was changed.
If you post demos and then tell everyone to fuck off with their opinions, then it's not us who are trolling.
#185 posted by Spirit [80.171.154.149] on 2012/01/15 19:33:36
yeah, http://www.celephais.net/board/vie...
#186 posted by onetruepurple [89.79.96.4] on 2012/01/15 19:35:52
I remember reading that and being disappointed that you didn't like it :(
Question
#187 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.191.147] on 2012/01/15 19:46:20
Does the random enemy placement also happen when I load a savegame? Because I could have sworn that after I loaded a savegame, there were enemies there which I had killed before.
I Could Be Wrong About This
#188 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/15 20:08:55
but I believe that the enemies which have already spawned at the start of the map will remain in the same place, but the enemies which are randomly spawned that are triggered as you progress are chosen at the point that they are triggered, so there will be some enemies which are in the same place when you load a savegame, but some which would be triggered later on which could theoretically spawn differently.
#189 posted by Willem [174.109.109.171] on 2012/01/15 20:30:33
gb
The topic has text in it that says:
"Let us know what you think"
If you aren't actually interested in feedback, then please don't put that in your news topics. Or change it to, "Praise is welcome and nothing else" or something like that.
#190 posted by Willem [174.109.109.171] on 2012/01/15 20:31:44
I mean, ffs, stop whining about you being the ones doing all the work. You chose that! Nobody is forcing you to work on this thing.
And if you're going to be a pissy prick every time you release a demo and people start telling you what they like and don't like, DON'T RELEASE DEMOS. Just work on your game in isolation and be happy.
SleepwalkR: Odd Lighting Of Enforcer Laser Beams
#191 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [178.70.202.237] on 2012/01/15 20:42:41
It's a 'corona' light blob, just like in bad'ol glquake. Cant turn it off, unfortunately.
Hmm
#192 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.191.147] on 2012/01/15 21:25:14
It seems more pronounced, or maybe QuakeSpasm doesn't have it so I'm not used to it anymore.
On a different note, I seem to be able to walk through the ladders to and on board the ship in e2m3rq. Is that a bug that's in the Windows version, too? For the ladder that leads up to the ship, I had to noclip to get aboard.
'corona' Light Blob ... Cant Turn It Off
#193 posted by mh [109.79.241.65] on 2012/01/15 21:36:46
r_show_coronas 0
Heh
#194 posted by Tronyn [24.79.201.144] on 2012/01/15 22:04:23
r_allowerrors_0 :)
While You Debate What The Definition Of "is" Is
#195 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/16 03:23:32
I will be busy trying the milk out the enjoyment of this mod.
I do realize the Func people are easily startled, but will be back and in greater numbers.
Monster Spawning
#196 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/16 13:27:00
I'm not 100% sure either tbh, but I think that monsters are all set at the start of the map and never change.
It's using Preach's old I3d tutorial, the same method in Quoth so the monsters don't actually spawn in, they're still placed, just turned off.
Then when triggered they appear and do whatever their little brain desires.
There are some other factors that can make things different though, like roaming, and some monsters also have teleportation abilities.
Okay
#197 posted by SleepwalkR [141.20.193.147] on 2012/01/16 13:39:44
So I guess if a monster shows up on map load that was not there when I saved that is either related to bad memory on my part or a bug. I'll see if I can reproduce this.
Quick Question
#198 posted by nitin [124.148.148.31] on 2012/01/16 13:53:10
whats the plan regarding introduction to the player of changed/new behaviour of monsters/weapons etc from standard quake? Just via readme or in game?
In Game
#199 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/16 17:16:49
I'd like to do a Manual, but that'd just be for fun - the player should be able to learn everything they need from the game itself.
In any case, they're still not that complex, and I see things like how randomized spawning or roaming work being of more interest to the mapper than a regular player.
One major difference (that wouldn't be visible to someone completely new to the game) is that monsters get better at using their abilities and attacks on harder difficulties.
What I mean is there's lots of stuff thats new to Quake, but you'd take for granted in any other game made after 1996.
#200 posted by Ankh [88.199.103.6] on 2012/01/16 21:14:53
e3m2rq demo
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
Thank You Sir
#201 posted by ijed [190.22.114.47] on 2012/01/17 02:18:53
BTW
#202 posted by ijed [190.22.114.47] on 2012/01/17 02:59:23
I couldn't watch all of e3m1rq - there was a disconnect cable error about halfway through and it locked up.
Nice e3m2rq demo - you figured out how the blaster worked and even seemed to be having fun, in a pants wetting terror sort of way :)
A hint about the secrets - in e3m2rq at least they're usually where they were before, although with a slightly different access method.
Ijed
#203 posted by nitin [124.170.49.96] on 2012/01/17 14:15:22
I didnt mean features like random spawning or roaming but meant core mechanics (that I've read about) like Shamblers teleporting or ogres with different attacks etc.
I'm not sure how you would introduce the vhanges personally but is the plan that players will just work it out?
Well
#204 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/17 14:49:23
If an Oger fires a rocket at you then its pretty obvious what is going on - same for one with double chainsaws or whatever.
Shamblers only dimension door when at a higher skill level and specifically flagged to do so by the mapper. And they're Shamblers - one of the high-tier enemies and as such players who see this happen are already going to have a good enough understanding of the world in order to understand what's going on.
Basically, yes, the idea is for the player to figure it out on their own.
As you'll remember the original monster descriptions were very rudimentary:
http://quakeone.com/q1files/docume...
Probably an added explanation there of the the Shamblers being able to telport in special circumstances on high skills would be a single sentence.
#205 posted by Ankh [88.199.103.6] on 2012/01/17 22:51:21
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
e3m3rq demo. It stops somewhere in the middle of the map after I died from squishing (twice).
The map is very quake'y. Too long though.
What is it with the 4th button that can't be pressed?
The fog-poison area wasn't a nice experience/
Can't Watch
#206 posted by ijed [190.22.114.47] on 2012/01/17 23:14:26
Just yet - technical issues.
I've rethought this map quite a bit, the next version will be shorter and more objective driven.
4th button - I assume you mean one that has a 'rusted' message. The idea is to weigh it down to depress it.
That First Wtf
#207 posted by ijed [190.22.114.47] on 2012/01/17 23:41:47
Is a bug... I'm assuming the shutters that raise there in the middle gibbed you - maybe they're off-axis or something.
The second one is intentional, just unfortunate the NPC placement - he's supposed to show you the danger by getting squished.
Been Trying E3m1rq...
#208 posted by the silent [79.16.58.195] on 2012/01/18 22:05:02
... But I can't seem to quickload (or even load). Engine says "Hunk_Alloc: failed on 4194336 bytes". What's up with this? Any workarounds? I restarted the freakin' thing like 15 times...
Yesterday e2m1rq worked just fine...
Hunk_Alloc: Failed
#209 posted by mh [109.79.174.163] on 2012/01/18 22:46:48
That's most likely one of the 1024x1024 textures. If you can get to the point where you can at least see the console and menus I know that it's not the post-processing textures (which would only be loaded at this size if you were running a video mode of something like 1024x768).
That leaves the replacement textures supplied with the pack. You could try either deleting or renaming your "textures" directory and see if it will load then; that would confirm that it's one of those.
RMQ allocates a 128mb heap by default, so options for you if that succeeds would include specifying a larger -heapsize (try 256mb).
Also, if you're using any other replacement content (e.g. in ID1) kill that to see if it fixes it.
Finally, if you're running Quoth with RMQ (unlikely but I have to check) then don't. Quoth isn't compatible with everything out there, and has been observed to break other mods (ARWOP is one I can remember from recent-ish).
And don't rule out something else on your PC as a possible trouble-maker. If nothing in RMQ content or it's engine has changed, and if it worked yesterday, then it's always possible.
Hmmm...
#210 posted by the silent [79.16.58.195] on 2012/01/18 23:21:13
Let's see... A bit more info:
my command line is as follows, "C:\QUAKE\RMQEngine-Win32.exe -heapsize 56000 -game rmqwinter11 -sndspeed 44100 +map e3m1rq", I'm playing on a 3,1 Ghz Intel Core Imac with 8 gb ram on Parallels (I just played Serious Sam 3BFE on medium/high settings pretty well, and Wolfenstein 2009 works like a charm). I'm emulating a win2k machine that was my former pc and managed without a hitch the previous RMQ demos.
If I start the level from scratch, the loading goes just fine, trouble starts when I F6 and then F9.
There, it crashes.
I played up to the button that opens the first two doors, after having found the gunsmith secret...
I'm going to bed now, tomorrow I'll try something you suggested... Thx a bunch!
The Silent
#211 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.54.61] on 2012/01/18 23:32:28
Why don't you try the Mac Port of RMQEngine I posted above? I would be interested in your feedback. I am running it on a very similar system and it works like a charm.
That's
#212 posted by ijed [190.22.56.234] on 2012/01/18 23:36:50
A very small heapsize - try 256000 or 512000.
I suspect this is the sounds in that map bombing things again.
-heapsize 56000
#213 posted by mh [109.79.174.163] on 2012/01/18 23:46:45
Is nowhere near adequate. e3m1rq actually needs only 16mb heap to run, but it will need a LOT more during loading as temp storage is heavily used.
A 1024x1024 skybox, for example, will need about 45mb of temp storage to just load. It's all discarded immediately after (as soon as the textures are created) but the texture data has to come from system memory in the first place (that 45mb includes files as they are opened and read, then converted to BGRA (cos it loads faster than RGBA)).
All maps will load and play fine using the default heapsize in the engine, so either drop it from your command-line or use a higher value (with 8gb of RAM you really have no need to be using just 56mb).
And Yeah...
#214 posted by mh [109.79.174.163] on 2012/01/18 23:48:07
Try the Mac port! :)
Aw...fuck...
#215 posted by the silent [80.17.142.66] on 2012/01/19 13:40:05
...What happened is that my heapsize was inherited from who know when via multiple copy+paste. I was not aware it was set SO low. Sorry to have even asked. I should have thought this by myself. Maybe too tired to think, tonight I'm gonna set things right.
And ehi, sure Sleepwalker, glad to give you feedback on this!!! Thanks for taking the time to make the port, in the first place!!!
Note That
#216 posted by SleepwalkR [141.20.193.45] on 2012/01/19 14:13:48
there is also an OS X port of QuakeSpasm
#217 posted by Willem [199.255.40.36] on 2012/01/19 16:23:31
"then converted to BGRA (cos it loads faster than RGBA)"
Seriously? Are we talking something measurable or milliseconds here?
BGRA
#218 posted by mh [137.191.242.106] on 2012/01/19 18:33:31
I really must put that test program up on the RMQ SVN....
I've done a lot of measuring and benchmarking of formats and layouts here. Bottom line is that on all hardware (except ATI/AMD for some odd reason, where it's the same no matter) BGRA is between 6 and 30 times faster than RGBA.
For load times this may or may not be important.
If you're loading native 64x64 8-bit Quake textures, then it's likely you won't even notice.
If you're loading 512x512 TGAs it may be the difference between the player waiting 1 minute vs waiting 5 minutes for the map to load.
If you're updating lightmap textures at runtime, it may be the difference between running at 10fps and running at 250fps. That's where milliseconds are actually measurably important - 4 milliseconds will get you 250fps. 20 milliseconds will get you 50fps. If you're also running a server, running QC, drawing stuff, updating anuimations, playing sound, etc, then every single millisecond is precious. Every millisecond you save in this kind of this is a millisecond extra headroom for something else.
More BGRA
#219 posted by mh [109.79.138.168] on 2012/01/19 19:50:29
OK, the test program is now on the RMQ public SVN: svn://svn.icculus.org/remakequake/...
The code is mostly portable, but at present relies on some Windows-only libs for timing - you could replace this with the SDL timer stuff if you wanted (portability is not a huge concern for test programs).
#220 posted by Spirit [80.171.40.39] on 2012/01/19 20:14:27
Well, some proper feedback on the sounds then (not giving a flying fuck about the bitrate because it is very irrelevant):
Nailgun and Super Nailgun sound like silenced weapons.
Sound player makes when coming out of the water sounds weak and squeamish.
Lightning gun sounds weak and silent.
All weapon sounds seem to have no bass and sound hissy.
#221 posted by Willem [199.255.40.36] on 2012/01/19 20:20:22
"BGRA is between 6 and 30 times faster than RGBA"
That makes zero sense to me but if you've measured it then I'll defer to that.
#222 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.119.204] on 2012/01/19 20:26:12
All weapon sounds seem to have no bass and sound hissy.
This. What makes this extra strange is that the sound of soft gibs hitting the floor is the most bassy sound in the game!
All in all I have to say this is a huge improvement over the last demo. There are some great bits of atmosphere, especially thanks to some of the ambient music. As far as sounds go that's as possitive as I can be as the Enforcers (and now the ogres too) still sound as if someone's pulling a string on their back and if you get a whole load of grunts running around overhead it sounds like there are a bunch of coked up tap dancers roaming the slipgates.
For the most part the build quality of the maps is top notch, though I feel some of the "new areas" are often pretty unnecessary and just end up diluting the original level. The bit on the floating ship in Ep 3 has the most infuriating ladders I've come across in any game ever -- please put a clip brush in so it's not possible to just walk through them? A couple of times I got nearly to the top and then just shot straight through it and suffered falling damage. The third time I got to the top and an ogre raped my face. What's the fish about?
The laser rifle is way overpowered -- Fiends and Shamblers just arent scary when you can tear them apart in a matter of seconds.
#223 posted by ZealousQuakeFan [82.16.91.220] on 2012/01/19 20:26:24
If you aren't planning on updating the animation of the Super shotgun (or are but haven't by your next release ;) ) you should add a simple 'click' noise at the end of the SSG reload imo, as the weapon sits inert but is unable to fire, so a little cue that it's ready would be helpful for learning it's firing timing since you've changed it.
BGRA Faster
#224 posted by mh [109.79.138.168] on 2012/01/19 20:53:57
The OpenGL "common mistakes" page is quite awesome for this kind of thing; this link is relevant: http://www.opengl.org/wiki/Common_....
Summary.
Most GPUs will internally store all textures in BGRA layout, irrespective of what you specify when creating the texture.
What should be obvious from this is (and this applies to the format param of glTexImage and glTexSubImage calls):
Using GL_RGB for starters is just plain nuts. You're not saving video RAM and when loading the texture your driver must expand it to 4 components and swap R and B.
Using G_BGR avoids the swap but means it must still be expanded.
Using GL_RGBA avoids the expansion but means it must still be swapped.
Using GL_BGRA avoids both the swap and expansion - transferring the data from system memory to GPU memory is just the equivalent of a straight memcpy which can be optimized (the most simple optimization being transferring 32 bits of source data at a time instead of 8 bits). No CPU work required before transferring, data is already in the format the GPU will use internally, result is a much faster transfer.
Of course, once the transfer has completed and the texture is in GPU memory none of this has any impact on performance. But if further transfers must happen during runtime (like e.g. Quake dynamic lightmap updating), then it most certainly does.
I Agree About The Laser Rifle
#225 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.54.61] on 2012/01/19 21:04:42
The laser rifle is way overpowered -- Fiends and Shamblers just arent scary when you can tear them apart in a matter of seconds.
I think it should be toned down quite a bit as well because of this.
Later To The Party As Always
#226 posted by sock [96.49.154.150] on 2012/01/19 23:34:59
I finally have my pc back with Q1 installed and I thought I would try this mod out! I downloaded it (400mb), readme instructions were confusing (seems to have been mentioned before).
Installed the mod in a RMQ directory, started with the -game rmq command, moved the winters content down a level. Typed map e2m1rq and got an error about a model :-
host_error: mod_loadmodel: progs/h_shal.mdl not found
I tried the original Q1 with the RMQ engine and it worked fine. Love the blur effects when taking damage. Oh well back to lurking ...
Hmmm
#227 posted by mh [109.79.138.168] on 2012/01/20 00:02:53
h_shal.mdl is part of ID1 Quake content. Are you missing PAK1.PAK?
Yeah
#228 posted by ijed [190.22.18.29] on 2012/01/20 02:23:37
Sounds like it can't find the original Quake there.
Laser rifle: I forgot to bump the Shambler health. This is because it conflicts with a secret plan.
How the blaster works is it get incrementally more powerful the longer you shoot, but also gains a cooldown time - thats why you see particles from it when its fired for a while.
A fiend doesn't give you enough time to warm the thing up by firing, I like how that's working. It's also good for the other enemies, since it's stupidly easy to spam away and run out of ammo.
But the poor old Shambler caught the raw end of the deal since how you fight it is ideally suited to a sustained fire = more damage weapon.
<i>italics</i> Is The New Plain Text
#229 posted by ijed [190.22.18.29] on 2012/01/20 02:24:10
I'm On A Roll
#230 posted by ijed [190.22.18.29] on 2012/01/20 02:24:32
Huh
#231 posted by ijed [190.22.18.29] on 2012/01/20 02:24:54
Why did that stay italic, will this?
Huh
#232 posted by ijed [190.22.18.29] on 2012/01/20 02:24:56
Why did that stay italic, will this?
SHIT....
#233 posted by metlslime [159.153.4.50] on 2012/01/20 02:25:44
you found another bug :)
#234 posted by ijed [190.22.18.29] on 2012/01/20 02:26:49
To Boldly find bugs...
#235 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/20 02:27:05
L00l
Test
#236 posted by ijed [190.22.18.29] on 2012/01/20 02:27:27
test
Ok, Enough Spam
#237 posted by ijed [190.22.18.29] on 2012/01/20 02:28:17
But it also put my name and IP in italic.
#238 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.119.204] on 2012/01/20 02:36:22
I think perhaps it should take longer to warm up because no fiends got anywhere near me!
Fixed And Playing E2M1RQ
#239 posted by sock [96.49.154.150] on 2012/01/20 02:52:34
For some reason my pak1.pak was corrupt, so replaced it and all fine.
My feedback from playing e2m1rq:-
* Initial cinematic totally confusing, I thought the game was broken at first and was teleporting me around the place randomly
* The Broken floor was not obvious (the very quickly displayed message about the floor was bad), if you need a message to tell players to do something with the floor then gameplay is broken. Should be visual in some way. Plus why am I in a prison cell with a gun!?!
* Dropped into a black hole and was lost for a while, black confined spaced early on in the game, not a good idea.
* Not sure why you give a quad so early in the game, I picked it up and it ran out in what seemed like 5 seconds.
* Grapplehook secret is pitch black (on my screen) found it by complete chance.
* Performance is terrible on my machine, I kept lowing the resolution but nothing seemed to fix it. Probably some weird setting I have missed on the command line!
* I want to shoot the security camera's off the walls!
* Too many crate styles, I kept finding new styles and was shooting them for secrets! :P I know it odd thing to say but a pile of crates the same style looks more believable than an every crate texture next to each other.
* Played on default skill setting and everything felt too easy. It felt like enemies health was scaled with skill level. Not a fan of this TBH.
* First button mashing puzzle was strange, drain water from pool below. Was looking for a cool pipe handle to turn somewhere and then I remembered it is Q1 ... and I had to bash a button in the water! I hit the button, went back to the control panel and was told I had to use a lift back in the water!?! It just seems so odd and retro level design.
* Died a couple of times to some hunter thing, first one I did not even see hitting me. Next couple just appeared out of nowhere and it was instant death. IMHO a bad mechanic.
* I still can't believe the menu's are not scaled up correctly, it makes the game feel so dated.
* I don't remember E2M1 feeling like this base layout, it felt completely different. A good thing! :)
* Maybe I have been spoilt by modern games with locations feeling like real layout. Offices, lifts, railings, even the puzzles felt old. The place lacked a scale and I know it can be done right, I have played Q1 maps with it right. (Rubicon1+2)
* The high res textures felt all wrong to me, they looked like a mashed up mix of colours, draw styles and their use in the environment felt random. The map desperately need an artist to make everything work together better. Control panels look pixelated next to high res signs, walls with too many details in the texture. There is a beauty to some surfaces being plain concrete and just having dirt on the edges.
I know I am picking at the level, but I assume you want feedback not back slapping. It is certainly a good MOD, but at the moment it feels odd, especially the visuals.
Menus
#240 posted by ijed [190.22.18.29] on 2012/01/20 03:50:11
These are untouched right now, we're just throwing some things back and forth now, before we commit to anything else with them.
Health scales, but its very slight, and has a large randomisation factor - you can still find tough enemies on low skills.
Performance could be related to the aforementioned memory settings - oldschool Quake settings are stupidly low for RMQ. Mh's engine defaults it to 128000, but you could try bumping that.
A lot of the others have been noted already, but there's some useful ones in there, thanks.
RMQ
#241 posted by stevenaaus [42.241.65.118] on 2012/01/20 04:59:38
Hmmm - the project name kind-of implies that the original Q1 shouldn't be needed to run the thing.
Laser Blaster Cont'd
#242 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.190.42] on 2012/01/20 07:54:57
I didn't even notice the heatup / cooldown in the game (kept wondering about the particles though). Probably because everything just died right away, fiends also. I tend to run away from fiends backwards and that must have given the blaster enough time to heat up.
I'm not so sure about this mechanic tbh. - Quake II had it, and the Hyperblaster bece the least uses weapon for me. It was like the Chaingun just worse because at least that's a hitscan weapon and easier to aim when moving.
So I think if you want to keep this mechanic you must balance it better because Shambler health bump or not, it's too powerful. And some better feedback about the heatup phase would be nice.
Whoa... 'twas The RAM Setting, Of Course...
#243 posted by the silent [80.17.142.66] on 2012/01/20 09:08:36
Nothing different from everyone up here to say, except maybe that I found some badly aligned textures here and there...
Got to the green fog place, made me wanna puke. Had to quit.
You sure this is a good idea?
Sleepwalkr: I'll try out the port over the weekend. I'll keep you posted.
It's All A Bit Dark For Me
#244 posted by mwh [121.73.77.183] on 2012/01/20 10:40:21
It might be to do with mostly playing in quite a bright room, but I've occasionally just given up and played with r_fullbright 1 and generally had a better time doing so. I'm sure this makes me a terrible human being, but maybe a few fewer shadows would help?
@Sock
#245 posted by RickyT23 [81.155.201.207] on 2012/01/20 10:45:53
First of all - thanks for playing my map! :)
And the list of things you mention is a good list, I will be looking at some of the things you mentioned - some of the textures have been improved already (by Inkub0), and there are some other issues you mentioned which I plan to rectify (like the scale for example - I also think I could improve this). Unifying the crates a little more isn't a bad idea ither.
So overall, thanks for your feedsback!
@Spirit
Thanks also for your feedback, MOAR BASS!!!!
#246 posted by ijed [190.22.18.29] on 2012/01/20 10:55:17
mwh - which levels?
poison fog - there seems to be a split on this, some like it, some don't.
Blaster - will revise it. Q2 didn't have this though, it just had a warm up for the HB and a warm down for the CG. The idea here is that the weapon overheats, firing more powerfully, but needs to cool down afterwards as well. So not spamming with it is less effective, but spamming too much can leave you without ammo and/or unable to fire.
#247 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/20 10:58:33
I didn't realize the lasergun was heating up and inceasing damage (+cooldown time), either. It could be made clearer by two or three skin changes (glowing exhaust slots: not, orange, red), and a distinct wshhhh steam sound.
But like I said earlier, I think the weapon is kind of unnecessary and only makes the game even harder to balance. If you need to bump the monsters' health to make the weapons work, you're doing something wrong (wasn't it the same with the SSG before?).
In my view, it would be better if you allowed all standard weapons, and additionally, since the player is supposed to be an Enforcer, gave him a sort of laser DBS, or laser Riot Controller. Something that works similar to the standard enforcer attack; two rays + wait time. They would have to be more powerful (and costly) than regular laser shots of course, DBS/RC style. This way it could serve as a special weapon for certain situations, like the Cauterizer, and bound to this episode, but would not imbalance the regular gameplay and not require too much additional doctoring around.
As for setting a bigger heapsize - it was my understanding that the memory heap is only important for loading stuff, the map, precaches etc, but has no impact on the actual game performance. The bigger a bsp size gets, the bigger the heap requirements are (map data, visdata, lightmaps, textures etc). A heapsize of 64000 is usually enough even for the largest maps (within the 'old new' limits). Only now that maps can grow to 22MB more startup memory is required.
sock: HF in E3M1RQ (performance-wise). ;)
Shotguns
#248 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/20 11:08:47
+1 for a proper DBS animation. Ideally Something akin to Doom2, or at least some visible cocking. Or maybe an animation where the gun is lowered and a sound is played that suggests two new shells are being put in the barrels which is not visible to the player.
The animation of the new shotgun looks a bit odd to me, because the cocking is so fast. It seems the model was adjusted to the sound and not the other way around. It should be a tad slower (surely the firing delay allows for that?). And the hand could use some tan.
I don't want to make it more complicated for you, but I think the DBS too nerfed now. At least I didn't use it as often as I would have in this demo (when I had the choice between regular SG and DBS), though maybe it's only because the E3 maps focus so much on the laser rifle...
And Yeah, Forgot To Mention...
#249 posted by the silent [80.17.142.66] on 2012/01/20 11:34:05
...it's dark as fuck.
Have to play with all lights turned off, secondary monitor off and brightness settings tops.
Atmospheric?
Poison Fog.
#250 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.119.204] on 2012/01/20 11:37:35
Poison Fog made me feel a bit sick too. I realise this was the intention, but I'm not sure why you'd want your playerbase to experience actual nausea. Anyway, I think you could fix it thus:
Reduce the swaying very slightly. Most of all though, change the way the section has to be played. Give the player an enviro suit at the top of the elevator which will run out when he's in the poison area, then have one or two more suits dotted around down there that the player needs to find if he wants to see & shoot correctly.
On Balance And The Blaster
#251 posted by SleepwalkR [141.20.193.45] on 2012/01/20 11:40:56
So if I understand it correctly, if I keep firing the blaster, it gets more powerful, but eventually stops working? Because that never happened to me or I haven't noticed it. If the blaster has some kind of operating temperature, e.g. 0 to 120° C, it would only need to cool down if it went past 120° C during usage, and logically, it should have stopped working when it reached that peak. So in cases where I only use short bursts, it always works without any delay and needs less time to heat up again?
The Q2 HP didn't have that behavior, no.
The balance is very problematic because if you increase monster health, you'll have to change all the other weapons too. Otherwise, maps without the blaster will be much harder to play.
Darkness
#252 posted by SleepwalkR [141.20.193.45] on 2012/01/20 11:42:32
That was problematic for me, too. I had to crank up the monitor brightness and in game brightness to be able to see something, but that made the entities washed out. Maybe it's related to the gamma curve, which is different on Mac systems. What do Windows users say?
Memory
#253 posted by mh [137.191.242.106] on 2012/01/20 11:57:51
Maps require a small amount of -heapsize to run but a large amount to load, yes.
But if it loads OK then -heapsize shouldn't affect runtime performance (e3m1rq only needs 16mb of heap to actually run, for example).
Things that can affect runtime performance are many and varied. You own PC's performance, size of the BSP and how much impact all the BSP tracing done by the engine has, sounds, QC, drawing stuff, etc.
The one thing that can make performance suck badly and you do have immediate control over is textures.
If you're using large replacement textures on hardware with only 256 or even 512 mb of video RAM these can kill your performance as the total amount of textures may not fit into video RAM and your driver will be continually having to swap them in and out.
We set the hardware requirements as "in or around similar to Doom 3" so far as the rendering tech is concerned, but that doesn't tell the whole story.
Doom 3 used 256x256 textures (which were compressed on lower spec machines). The Quake community likes to use 512x512 or even 1024x1024 textures.
A full mipmap chain for a single 1024x1024 texture needs just over 5mb of video RAM. Use 40 of those and that's over 200mb. Gone.
If you run at something like 1280x1024 resolution you're using 15mb for your front buffer, your back buffer and your depth buffer.
A 1024x1024 skybox needs 25mb.
You're looking at about 40mb for lightmaps.
There are additional textures created for post-processing effects (like the underwater warp) - these will take about 16mb at that resolution.
All MDLs and brush surfaces go into vertex buffers which take more (the alternative - streaming them from system memory on demand - is worse for this kind of content).
You see where this is going?
So first thing to do is drop back to native textures and if that resolves any performance issues then you've located the cause of your problem.
Second thing to do is ramp back the video mode a little. Drop a notch in resolution. That might help a little. Also drop back AA and AF in your video card's control panel. You may be used to running regular Quake content maxed out, but this is not regular Quake content. This is extremely heavy content. You may be used to running modern games maxed out, but Quake formats (in particular Q1 BSP) are SHIT for hardware accelerated rendering. That's a tradeoff you need to understand and accept that you're working under when you use Quake formats.
#254 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.119.204] on 2012/01/20 12:10:18
Why would you set the Hardware requirements to "in or around similar to Doom 3" when you're not aiming to make a game that looks as "good" as Doom 3? And if you do want to look like Doom3, why not just use DarkPlaces?
Honestly, looking at RMQ I see very little reason it shouldn't require similar specs to something like FitzQuake. Maybe there's something technical that I just can't comprehend going on, but if it isn't obvious in the visuals then perhaps it's unnecessary or should be scaled down by the development team rather than the players?
Read What Mh Wrote
#255 posted by SleepwalkR [141.20.193.45] on 2012/01/20 12:13:10
The problem is that the BSP format is not suited for hardware acceleration, and this problem gets overproportionally worse as the maps get larger.
Blaster
#256 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/20 12:15:17
Yeah, this was previously discussed in the thread, it's missing heat up vfx and similar.
The DBS has had some internal discussion as well.
Removing the blaster and adding a laser DBS sounds kind of 'would sir like an apple, or a pear?'. What's broken there is that the cooldown isn't enough to force you try to fighting like an Enforcer.
So if you play cautiously you'll fire, say, a couple of shots at a time and never waste ammo - but if you go berserk and fire off a lot of shots then you'll do more damage but also become more vulnerable + waste ammo.
The pro player will try and keep it somewhere between the two - doing slightly extra damage and wasting almost no ammo.
A case of getting the balance right.
Darkness
#257 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/20 12:15:40
Is this only in my maps or in Ricky's as well?
All Of Them, As Far As I Can Tell...
#258 posted by the silent [80.17.142.66] on 2012/01/20 12:20:11
...with obvious variation in places.
The Gunsmith secret area pops to mind... You can barely see the path to get to the goodies.
I Remember Your Maps
#259 posted by SleepwalkR [141.20.193.45] on 2012/01/20 12:21:36
being darker, or at least having more pitch black corners. I'll replay and check.
Doom 3
#260 posted by mh [137.191.242.106] on 2012/01/20 12:47:08
The hardware requirements are similar in terms of the GL extensions I use.
The formats and underlying technology are completely different. Doom 3 stresses your hardware in much different ways than this stuff does, and depending on how your hardware responds to this stress you may have a very different experience on both.
DarkPlaces is not an option because a custom BSP format was needed during the course of last year. Q1 BSP imposes various 64k limits which were overflown - vertexes were an early one, which got worked around, clipnodes became a serious problem, and leafs is a fairly recent one.
Using a different BSP format was not an option for various reasons. Formats considered either did absolutely nothing to resolve the problem (Q2, HL), were missing important features (Q3A), were encumbered by licensing restrictions (HL) or required too much upsetting of codebases and changing of the toolchain (all of them). The eventual choice to extend Q1 BSP by using ints instead of shorts in key strategic places meant that mappers could continue using their preferred editors and that minimal changes were needed to both tools and engine code (and - importantly - the very same backend code could be used in the engine for both the new format and the original - there were some small changes in the loader but that was all).
If DarkPlaces implements support for this format then DarkPlaces will become a serious contender.
None of that makes Q1 BSP suitable for hardware rendering. It was designed around the requirements of a software renderer running on a p60 with 8mb of RAM, so it chops surfaces up far too much (and far too small) leading to poor batching and lots of tiny submissions of geometry to the GPU - all things which make hardware rendering suffer. This wasn't resolved in any ID engine until Q3A, which would be easily capable of running this content with much higher performance.
Right
#261 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/20 13:09:33
I'd expect my maps to be darker since I work in bright places..
I think in future I'll light for minimum brightness settings on my machines, it's the only way to make it work properly for everyone.
Point of fact I played the brilliant Moonlight Assault the other day and couldn't believe how bright it was - thats not the level thats broken, but my set up.
BTW Text_fish, yes, what you're describing there is an idea for a trigger_status which would cause status changing effects and have methods for not affecting the player, like being in an envirosuit, partially or fully submerged (fire) and so on. In theory it could instead become an extension of the trigger_hurt's functionality, which would be neater.
What you see in e3m3rq is basically a maphack.
Ok
#262 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/20 13:12:25
So then the logical step must be to reduce the map's complexity, use fewer textures, or optimize it in other ways to make it playable on a smooth framerate. As painful as it may be.
Indeed, Replacement Textures Are The Culprit
#263 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/20 13:28:34
Just checked the texture folder. E2M1RQ has 183 files with a total of 100MB. E3M1RQ has 100 (!) files totalling to 220MB, lots of them being 3MB. Obviously, some optimization in this area is required.
3 MB
#264 posted by mh [137.191.242.106] on 2012/01/20 13:52:51
Sounds like a lot of 1024x1024 RGB textures.
Even pulling them down to 512x512 would help a lot to relieve the hurt. We probably need to talk more about this internally as there are tradeoffs to be made here (one of the options we've been looking at recently is using DXT compression, which would reduce that 220mb to 27.5 mb and also enable much faster texture sampling in the fragment shaders - there are patent issues surrounding that however, which would affect the ability to provide a reasonable fallback for those using free Linux drivers that can't support the required extension).
Lighting
I don't think that there's a perfect solution that will run well for everyone. Everybody's hardware is different, different monitors will have different gamma curves, etc.
The next release of the engine is going to have an r_lightscale cvar that you can use to bring up lighting levels (but without any clamping or washout) which may be all that is needed.
Lighting
#265 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/20 14:08:15
Sure, but right now I'm lighting from a middle position, if instead I go from one extreme (full black / full bright) and work towards the opposite then it should result in a more balanced range overall.
Starting from black will leave the levels with max brightness being almost whiteout - at least that's the plan.
Maybe not explaining that very well: right now the brightness range is to small between black and white.
Textures; yeah, 1024 isn't actually visible on most monitors just down to pixel real-estate. Granted it might look good if you headbutt a wall - but thats not something you're going to be doing much, compared to say, fighting.
Map size is something we probably won't be decreasing, there's levels in the works that are a little bit bigger than those in this release. I suspect on textures alone we can save a massive amount of overhead.
Map Size Is A Feature Of RMQ
#266 posted by RickyT23 [81.155.201.207] on 2012/01/20 14:18:43
We're saying 'Make gigantic maps!' or 'make maps with a huge amount of detail'. The toolkit that we use is really amazing. Just the engine and tools alone open huge possibilities.
I For One Get 790 Fps On E2m1rq
#267 posted by RickyT23 [81.155.201.207] on 2012/01/20 14:21:05
Fucking Brutal
#268 posted by jt_ [68.42.82.10] on 2012/01/20 14:24:00
http://kneedeepinthedoomed.files.w...
Mh Hint Hint
#269 posted by Spirit [82.113.99.71] on 2012/01/20 14:25:12
200 mb of textures for a map roughly sounds like the q1 mega texture space requirements. I'd definitely like that.
Q1 Megatexture
#270 posted by mh [137.191.242.106] on 2012/01/20 14:59:28
It's an interesting idea but not something I'd be keen to do in a production engine. Not with OpenGL anyway.
OpenGL is basically shit for updating dynamic resources. glTexSubImage is OK provided you invoke the correct eldritch incantations, but anything built on the GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object and GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object extensions is pure and total rubbish. Vague usage flags, mysterious crap happens behind the scenes, the driver does what it wants to anyway irrespective of what you do or don't specify, you get arbitrary fallbacks to software emulation and in the end it would have been faster if you'd just used system memory instead. (They're OK for purely static data though.)
Essential reading: http://www.stevestreeting.com/2007... (one of the Unity people also has a "GL_ARB_vertedx_buffer_object is stupid" post but I can't access it from this PC at the moment - try Google).
Vertedx -> Vertex Stupid Keyboard
#271 posted by mh [137.191.242.106] on 2012/01/20 15:00:56
Perfect Solution That Will Run Well For Everyone
#272 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [78.37.169.130] on 2012/01/20 18:20:33
is to actually lit the places where it matters - ie where player will have to go or will have to look at, instead of relying on a dim ambient that only works with high gamma settings.
Doesn't help that some of your textures are very dark, like peaking at 40 and cutting off at 70 (out 0-255 obviously) and you can only go down from those values since no overbrights.
Btw my monitor gamma is brighter than SRGB (I can distinguish the lowest grades, even 1-2-3 depending on the view angle http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black... and I found some places too dark as well.
Problem Is
#273 posted by mh [137.191.242.106] on 2012/01/20 18:26:29
That this is just not gonna work. I run my own monitor fairly dark (and I smoke so it tends to pick up a lot of gunge over time) but I could still see everything OK.
Which means that one's own individual experience means absolute squat in terms of how the maps are lit.
And: "no overbrights"? I don't think so. In fact the engine enforces overbrighting always on.
Dark Maps?
#274 posted by negke [31.18.178.13] on 2012/01/20 18:29:46
I blame TFT screens!
Turn Monitor Brightness Up XD
#275 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/20 18:42:27
I had Quake brightness slider half way up and it was WAAAYYY too bright on e2m1rq. Put it back to the default (lowest) setting and the map seemed OK to me.
The person who said the map was too dark:-
1 - what is your GPU? (U never know)
2 - what is the brightness/contrast setting on your monitor?
3 - what was your brightness setting in the engine?
The Silent
#276 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/20 18:55:36
It was you! Sorry mate, I forgot who had made the post.
No Prob, Rick...
#277 posted by the silent [79.22.56.122] on 2012/01/20 19:43:23
here goes:
1 - AMD Radeon HD 6970M - 1024 MB.
2 - Optimal, I'd say, even though the iMac screen is a bit too reflective for my taste...so I tend to keep it a lil' bit higher than I'd do on a normal monitor...
3 -Top.
Does The Darkness Apply To E2m1rq?
#278 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/20 19:52:45
Nice rig btw :)
Is it a Mac though? I mean OS, engine etc...
#279 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [78.37.169.130] on 2012/01/20 20:04:24
You don't understand, you need to properly light the map with contrast lights so it looks fine regardless of the gamma in the areas that are important for the progress (not secrets obviously) and use functional lighting to lead the player. (Unless you want to pull Doom3\Amnesia)
There are no overbrights on external textures, they always look darker http://i.imgur.com/722XZ.jpg
That's Actually
#280 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/20 20:14:12
an interesting point. Er... MH?
Lightmill
#281 posted by RickyT23 [2.223.172.220] on 2012/01/20 20:15:52
What engine is that?
I Don't See Any Overbrights Either
#282 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.190.42] on 2012/01/20 20:56:24
Mac Port of the engine.
And E2m1rq
#283 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.190.42] on 2012/01/20 20:59:50
is by far not as dark as e3m1rq, although it's missing overbright lighting, too.
Re: 279
#284 posted by metlslime [159.153.4.50] on 2012/01/20 21:06:28
Lighting in fitzquake should not care whether it's an external texture or not (and i assume RMQ hasn't changed this) -- do you have the "idgamma" patch installed? That would cause brightness on 8-bit textures to be different.
Regarding Texture Memory Usage
#285 posted by metlslime [159.153.4.50] on 2012/01/20 21:08:23
don't forget that you can use gl_max_size and gl_picmip to reduce the texture sizes and memory needs...
(gl_max_size will reduce only the largest textures, gl_picmip will reduce all textures by the same amount.)
I Don't Have Idgamma.
#286 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.190.42] on 2012/01/20 21:31:56
Re: Overbrights
#287 posted by metlslime [159.153.4.50] on 2012/01/20 21:52:55
Sleepwalkr: so you see the same issue as shown in the screenshot in post #279?
Sleepwalkr or Ghd Fladjern Tilbud: does the problem in the screenshot go away if you set gl_overbright to 0? If yes, then it sounds like you're right and the overbright doesn't work on external textures. (again, this assumes RMQ behavior for that cvar hasn't changed from fitzquake)
Gl_overbright
#288 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.118.230] on 2012/01/20 23:50:53
Doesn't exist in RMQ.
Metl
#289 posted by necros [99.227.132.108] on 2012/01/20 23:57:46
i've noticed there is a difference between external textures and internal bsp ones. i just assumed it was due to the palette subtly changing colours when i palettized the textures.
RMQ Stuff
#290 posted by sock [96.49.154.150] on 2012/01/21 00:21:26
@ijed, I went back to the original Q1 and the basic marines are a couple of shots with the single barrel rifle. In RMQ they are one shot, it feels too easy compared to the previous game. (I did nothing to change the skill level)
If you are changing health based on skill level then that is indeed a bad idea. Get the designer to swap AI units around based on skill not fix it with code. Let players understand the AI better by knowing what to expect (damage wise) to kill them. Tweaking numbers based on skill is a recipe for disaster.
@RickyT23, good luck with the textures. Ideally you should start with a proper unified set that is actually designed to work together. At least fix the texture density so they are all consistent. It is the first thing I notice and makes me stop and stare even more.
Sleepwalkr:
#291 posted by metlslime [159.153.4.50] on 2012/01/21 00:30:00
okay, guess it's changed enough from fitzquake that i can't really help much :)
Overbrights
#292 posted by mh [109.79.145.12] on 2012/01/21 00:52:32
There are overbrights on the external textures; there are overbrights on all textures and the fragment shader code is very explicitly texture * lightmap * 2.0; I wrote it and I know that that is what it does.
Saying "there are no overbrights" makes precisely zero sense because we are talking about an explicit mathematical operation here that does not distinguish in any way, shape or form between whether the texture is external or not.
Convince me that "TEX diffuse, fragment.texcoord[0], texture[0], 2D;" or "(l * 42.5f) / 255.0f" is capable of distinguishing whether a texture is external or not.......
None of this means that I'm saying that problems don't exist - what I'm saying is that if there is a problem - you're barking up the wrong tree. It's coming from somewhere else.
More Feedback On E2M1RQ
#293 posted by sock [96.49.154.150] on 2012/01/21 01:07:59
The map is way to big and it lacks encounter focus. Let me give an example:-
The location of the map around the HQ building has a long corridor section pointing towards a bridge area. When I come into that area I am facing towards the HQ. There is AI firing at me from 180 degree's, the dead end to the left and stuff from the bridge area. I am not saying the area needs to be more linear but the encounters need to come from a small angle. Introduce the AI over near the bridge when the player goes there not before.
Also I accidentally found I needed to go into the HQ and then engineering to get the bridge to work. I was lost for ages and for some reason that area is like a slide show for me with <10 fps. Once I finally got to the bridge area all the AI had died and it felt like anti climax when I got there. I don't think you need to spawn stuff so far away, it feels like a sniper game.
The flow of the map is broken and misleading where to go next. Let me give an example:-
When you finally get the bridge to lower, there is a platform with crates and a locked door. (There was some AI stuck in the door as well). I could not see anyway to go (obvious) Then I started jumping around on crates and jumped to the rock ledge to the left. Apparently this was the way forward because it got me into the complex. I assumed that was a secret area not the main route. I was expecting a door, a ladder or something that was going to lead upwards. The flow of the map should feel natural and not misleading.
Will play more later! :)
#294 posted by mh [109.79.145.12] on 2012/01/21 01:43:55
It's not obvious that the rock ledge is the way to go, true. I'm not a mapper so that's not my provenance and it's best if I don't get involved in this side of the discussion.
My provenance however is very much the < 10fps experience you had in the bridge/HQ/engineering area. Can you give me some info on your hardware and setup as it would be useful to me in addressing thing in future, please?
S/thing/this - SFK Again.
#295 posted by mh [109.79.145.12] on 2012/01/21 01:44:24
Sock
#296 posted by ijed [190.22.108.249] on 2012/01/21 01:48:16
(replying to health)
The random variation in health is very slight - rarely it'll take one more shot or one less, depending on the weapon. Mostly you won't notice the variation unless you're using nails.
It was geared to this for the players who knew exactly how many nails it to for enemy X - I was one of them.
The reason why the grunts take one shotgun blast rather than two is because the weapon itself is more powerful, but also much more range dependent.
The balance in general is towards mobile enemies being more vicious and unpredictable, but also easier to kill, depending on the methods used.
Grunts circle strafe for example, and versions like the Axe Grunt have a one-off axethrow that causes heavy damage at short range.
You'll notice the ammo system has changed a lot to accommodate this as well.
Finally, the difficultly sliding is throughout everything - how frequently monsters use special attacks, how fast their shots are and so on. The health increase is fairly minor.
The design focus is to make the game more unpredictable - not stupidly so, but just enough to keep veteran players on their toes.
Ideally we want to promote the same fear and tension in a veteran has they first had when playing the game for the first time.
Maybe this all sounds a bit anal-retentive and hubristic to someone on the outside.
Playing The Game For The First Time
#297 posted by mh [109.79.145.12] on 2012/01/21 01:57:35
I have a very clear memory of The Dismal Oubliette from then, definitely moreso than any other map (aside from e1m1 and e1m2, perhaps). I recall the feeling of mounting tension, the sheer dread, being soaked in sweat and almost collapsing as I finally got there.
These days I can do the standard route in a few minutes of course, but aiming to capture that feeling again is perfectly fine in my book.
Well
#298 posted by ijed [190.22.108.249] on 2012/01/21 02:05:44
It makes balancing things much more complex, but nobody said it'd be easy.
It does have some harmful side effects as well, that need to be patched. The randomised wake up time for zombies, for example.
From the demos it seemed to make player very nervous 'when can I gib the little fucker?!' but I think it borders on annoying.
Open question - should zombies (and any corpse) be gibbable by explosions? No shotguns or other weapons, just explosive blasts.
I'm breaking the rules of games design asking that here :)
#299 posted by necros [99.227.132.108] on 2012/01/21 02:19:11
zombies becoming completely invulnerable when falling down doesn't really make any logical sense nor does it provide an interesting gameplay element beyond making the player wait (which is always bad).
i don't think this is behaviour that needs to be preserved.
Zombies
#300 posted by mh [109.79.145.12] on 2012/01/21 02:27:24
There's been a lot of talk about zombies recently. They're definitely one Quake monster with huge unused potential, and ways of making them a more interesting and varied opponent are being discussed.
One example I came up with (which I hope the folks don't mind me mentioning) was in relation to zombie gibs. Obviously you cannot kill that which does not live (but you can blast it into chunky kibbles) so an argument can be made that even zombie gibs are not exactly dead. So what can be done with zombie gibs to make them reflect that fact? And how can something cool gameplay-wise come out of it?
No decisions made, of course, but it is one potential idea into the cauldron.
Metlslime Was Right
#301 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [78.37.169.130] on 2012/01/21 08:39:00
I double checked and indeed I had a modified pal lmp that I had completely forgotten about, so never mind about external\internal.
Its just the way maps are illuminated and the way particular textures give back the light.
BTW if you want to save on texture memory, you should start with those 17 1024&#178; door textures that differ only in captions on them.
There are many other textures that have tiling going on inside them, so you could cut the texture size in 4 with no quality loss. Typical 'cranking up resolution for resolution sake' case of replacement content.
And last note for The Silent, in-engine gamma adjustment could conflict with other software or drivers and make no effect.
Which Maps Are Dark?
#302 posted by mwh [121.73.77.183] on 2012/01/21 08:45:39
All so far? That's only e2m1rq and about half of e3m1rq though :-)
I'm the oddball running linux on intel graphics (and a pretty crappy monitor -- I'll see what it's like on the internal display soon). r_lightscale sounds like it might be a useful hack for me.
1024(squared) That Was
#303 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [78.37.169.130] on 2012/01/21 08:48:04
Overbrights
#304 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.118.230] on 2012/01/21 09:21:33
Ghd, the problem is gone for you then? Because if it is, that would mean that I have a modified palette, too, although I wouldn't know where because my paks are unchanged. Where did you find yours?
Mh
#305 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.118.230] on 2012/01/21 09:24:43
So you can't replicate this? Does it look fine on your machine?
Some Observations
#306 posted by Ankh [88.199.103.6] on 2012/01/21 09:32:51
The weapons:
- I started to use DBS for one shot kills mostly. waiting for the reload is very unpleasant and it slows down the game.
- the SG replaced the DBS for ogre fights (4 shots is enough)
- I like the knock back from the weapons
- I like that the grenade explosions can push monsters (and my other grenades also)
- SNG spread is ok
- RL didn't change I think but feels overpowered as always
- the new laser thing - I didn't notice the behaviour you described, it feels much overpowered
- I like to use the nail gun
- underwater weapon behaviour is ok but don't punish the player with using up more ammo, maybe the grenade launcher could still work underwater
- the limits on carrying ammo work surprisingly ok
other things I like:
- monster wizard teleporting
- shambler lightning
- knight zombies
- hell knight missiles
- health regeneration - although in standard quake it wouldn't be needed
- monsters follow the player better - they can surprise even on standard maps
things I don't understand:
- quad behaviour
- fall damage - to complicated
- why do I need to wait for zombies so long
- is anything changed with monsters going into pain animation? Fighting ogres with SG they usually go into pain after first shot and I can fire 2 more before they recover.
For me the gameplay is ok. It feels like quake with some small modifications and surprises which is good.
I have recorded some demos on quake ep1 if anyone is interested:
http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/...
To Sock
#307 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [78.37.169.130] on 2012/01/21 09:33:53
Funny you expect the game to hold your hand these days. "Retro" level design with some free exploration and several routes is so much better than waiting on the AI squadmates to unlock another door and get another objective in an absolutely linear tightly scripted map. Proof: DE:HR.
For the texture mish-mash, E2M1 actually uses a fairly true to the original Q2 set remake, but obviously some textures are by different authors or not properly repainted placeholders. I would ease up on using aggressive grid and grates patterns everywhere too. The rest seems fine.
Randomised stuff ironically could make it easier on hard skill, when you can get random big weapons, MHs or armors.
Btw scaled hp and attack with higher skill is used almost everywhere, ie in HL2 (such a disaster of a game ain't it).
To SleepwalkR
#308 posted by Ghd Fladjern Tilbud [78.37.169.130] on 2012/01/21 10:03:37
Modified pal only makes the internal textures look noticeably brighter and stand out. Check e3m1rq near the start below the lift and straight to the locked door - one of the wall panels texture is an internal low res.
If you have idgamma leftovers its either gfx/palette.lmp or a small .pak with it in /id1.
I didn't notice any overbights with new textures, so I guess its just the way maps are lit and the textures being dark, like I said.
Ghd
#309 posted by rj [86.29.94.69] on 2012/01/21 11:51:53
have you tried playing with the contrast slider? if you up it along with the brightness it can improve the 'overbright' look without making the darks too washed out. similar effect as a modified palette i guess, but it affects everything rather than just the lo res textures
Contrast
#310 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.118.230] on 2012/01/21 12:58:59
And brightness are both at 50% atm, will try your suggestion later.
Completely Unable To Replicate This
#311 posted by mh [109.79.164.172] on 2012/01/21 13:57:42
I've watched demos where the player was randomly shooting as he was wandering along. Took me a long time to realise that he was doing it to light up areas he couldn't see in. They looked perfectly visible to me and I must assume that they looked perfectly visible to the mapper too (otherwise they would have been lit differently).
Now, I did have an old PC in work (until about 2 weeks ago) where the desktop and other OS stuff, as well as other programs, looked no different, but Quake was incredibly dark and dingy looking, and I had to crank gamma to about 0.8/0.75 (lower numbers being brighter).
#312 posted by Spirit [80.171.155.140] on 2012/01/21 14:26:07
We need a reference map with lots of lighting levels and stuff.
Ghd
#313 posted by ijed [190.22.108.249] on 2012/01/21 15:56:00
The randomisation is completely controlled by the mapper.
Ankh:
The Quad starts with ten or twenty seconds, and gains 5 seconds for each kill you make. This still needs its times tweaking.
Fall damage too complicated??
Going to change the Zombies...
How often a monster goes into pain is unmodified from id1. I'm not sure if there's a damage threshold for Ogres that remained as is - that would cause problems since the shotgun and Ogre health has changed a lot. Will look into it.
Glad you liked the mod, and thanks for the feedback.
Maybe It Is Related To Texel Size
#314 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.118.230] on 2012/01/21 16:36:55
I don't know much about the Quake lighting model, but maybe the factor that the new textures seem darker is related to the size of the texels during the lighting process. They are larger on the low res textures so maybe they collect more light?
Mh
#315 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.118.230] on 2012/01/21 16:37:51
Why don't you give me all your lighting related settings as a cfg file and I'll make some screenshots for you - that way you can compare.
I Just Use The Defaults
#316 posted by mh [109.79.164.172] on 2012/01/21 17:30:00
The lighting process doesn't actually read texture data at all, and texel size isn't relevant here.
What I'd like to see however is a comparison made using the ID1 start map. I'm suggesting that because otherwise there are too many variables in the equation - new maps, new textures, new lighting, etc. The ID1 start map is a known constant and takes all of those variables out. We're left with engine and replacement textures as factors that must be considered, and nothing else to distort the analysis.
There are 4 things that must be compared to make the comparison complete and scientifically valid:
- ID1 start map, native textures, RMQ engine
- ID1 start map, external textures, RMQ engine
- ID1 start map, native textures, other engine
- ID1 start map, external textures, other engine
That's the only way you're going to get anything out that's not tainted by subjective opinion.
I haven't done a direct comparison yet, but I believe that a histogram of standard external textures (Rygel's or QRP) with native ID1 textures will show that the externals are darker overall. They do look that way to my eyes anyway.
On overbrights.
Seems to be some confusion here about what overbright lighting is and what overbright lighting does, which may be leading to the statement that the engine doesn't do overbrights.
It's quite clear that the engine does do overbrights - you can check some of the well-known trouble spots to confirm.
Overbright lighting doesn't make things brighter; what it does is increase the dynamic range of lighting. Any light in the standard range won't and shouldn't appear any different, any light above the standard range will be clamped without overbright lighting but won't be clamped (or - at worst - will be clamped at a higher level, although that doesn't apply to RMQ) with overbright lighting.
There are a few different ways of obtaining overbright lighting, with the standard being to shift down by an extra bit when calculating the lightmap then double the result after you multiply texture by lightmap. Q2 and Q3A double the texture and leave the source lighting fairly dark (they weren't written to target the required GL extension). DirectQ encodes a scaling factor into the alpha channel of the lightmap texture which is then decoded in the pixel shader. RMQ blends multiple lightstyles entirely on the GPU so it gets this as a natural result.
They're all just mathematical operations on numbers though, and the operation is the same whether the texture is external or not. In that case, if a different result is achieved, then the inputs must be different.
There is actually a second source of lightmap clamping going on too, and that's in the light tool. We have a solution worked out to address that, but nothing coded yet.
Another Strange Observation
#317 posted by SleepwalkR [85.178.118.230] on 2012/01/21 19:36:45
In Ricky's map, I have seen enemies being rendered at the wrong position for a single frame. It was always in an area where I hadn't been before and the enemies in question were there for a single frame, then vanished and it didn't happen again. I have actually caught this in the demo posted above, in that case it's a dog. I just saw it again though and this time it was enforcers or grunts.
E2M1RQ Complete
#318 posted by sock [96.49.154.150] on 2012/01/21 20:18:28
Ok now that I can see the original E2M1 at the end of the map it feels a lot better. :) Maybe the problem is my expectations of what a remake is? I assumed a remake is taking the original game and updating it visually, this mod is doing a lot more than this, in places it feels like a TC.
I think the layout got better at the end than the beginning and certainly got harder as I went on (good thing) especially liking the turrets (would have been nice to bring them out of the ground and then activate them)
Once I realize what you are doing with the MOD it feels a lot better and I can accept the changes and see it as a different version of Q1.
You (the team) certainly have my respect for taking on such a challenge as a remake of Q1 because everyone has their expectations of what that is going to be. Probably the hardest thing to get right is meeting everyone's idea what is important to Q1 and not.
mh, I switched graphic cards and the fps slow downs did not happen anymore. Everything was much better and I started to enjoy the map more.
I tried E3M1RQ and that was crazy dark for me and I died a lot! :P
Well
#319 posted by ijed [190.22.14.77] on 2012/01/21 21:25:53
The name is something that's been complained about a lot. A remake for me is re-making something... to what level that's done depends on who's doing it.
A visual only remake seems the uh, quickest option. We chose everything, which is why it's taking so long :)
We get a lot of flak, but a lot of positive stuff as well.
The episode 3 maps are mine - it seems my working conditions (light) have badly influenced how bright the levels are. We're working on things behind the scenes to fix this up.
Not least lighting levels properly :P
Mh
#320 posted by necros [99.227.132.108] on 2012/01/21 21:29:40
might be useful to make a console command that will display the player's current light level every frame like r_speeds.
this would actually make it scientific instead of just subjective: 'the area around this important door is only light level 30-40 which is too dark' as opposed to 'i can't see the door'.
i pretty much gave up on trying to light maps with any specificity because everyone's monitors are different. i just fall back on the brightness slider when people mention it. :(
#321 posted by onetruepurple [89.79.96.4] on 2012/01/22 02:01:08
even zombie gibs are not exactly dead. So what can be done with zombie gibs to make them reflect that fact?
If a zombie misses, the thrown piece of flesh could chase the player.
#322 posted by metlslime [166.205.138.24] on 2012/01/22 02:42:52
Enough zombie Gibs near each other could reform into a zombie, like the T-1000
#323 posted by yhe1 [71.160.150.186] on 2012/01/22 03:22:35
Zombie hands could chock the player, like in Blood
#324 posted by ijed [190.22.14.77] on 2012/01/22 03:33:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAO...
Or...
#325 posted by ijed [190.22.14.77] on 2012/01/22 03:35:39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnl...
Lol Ijed
#326 posted by jt_ [68.42.82.10] on 2012/01/22 16:24:00
#327 posted by mh [78.152.238.250] on 2012/01/22 20:26:57
I had a slightly sick idea for zombies that go through a lifecycle, like insects or caterpillars into butterflies. Blow one up and it reforms into something else. It would definitely add replayability to areas of the map you've been in before, but I suspect it would only be effective if the player gets to see it reform (which would probably require a cutscene furst time). It might also piss off people aiming to get 100% kills.
@Necros - that's a pretty good idea; mind if I steal it? ;)
Well
#328 posted by Tronyn [24.79.201.144] on 2012/01/22 20:31:27
the gibs from zombies could just bounce around like tarbabies, leaving behind blood tracers. maybe they cold die out naturally after a while.
#329 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.119.204] on 2012/01/22 21:10:31
I sort of think when you've gibbed a zombie it should cease to be a threat. The gibs could stay there making squishy noises and the head could continue to groan for atmosphere.
Alternatively if you go with the idea of all the gibs reforming in to something they could turn in to one of those blob things.
Or other monsters could pick up zombie gibs as health packs!
#330 posted by Spirit [80.171.51.171] on 2012/01/22 21:23:25
Make the player able to carry a zombie head and give him an achievement if he gets it to the helicopter.
More serious suggestion: Let the player collect gibs for some reward (per level and per game), be it just a number or something "real". I liked the coins in ne_ruins. It would be a tacked-on game feature the player can choose to participate in or not with not big impact on the game world (unless you present it as such).
Vomitii
#331 posted by ijed [190.22.14.77] on 2012/01/22 21:30:02
Already eats gibs and heads btw - once they've got enough stock they cack out a zombie.
Spirit - that reminds me of a pack I did in Quake2, which had the player placing 3 commander heads on a tomb in the hub for a reward...
Bug Report
#332 posted by SleepwalkR [92.231.235.188] on 2012/01/22 23:41:34
In e2m2rq, I died when the lava began to rise. After reload, it appeared as if I was still in the lava visually. I wasn't taking damage, but my vision was warping as if under water and everything had a yellow tint.
That's Stuffcmd
#333 posted by mh [78.152.238.250] on 2012/01/23 00:06:05
Moving liquid brushes use a stuffcmd of v_cshift to set the colour shift, but this persists until another such stuffcmd clears it. The same applies to stuffing fog, and any other such cvar.
You can see another effect of the same bug if you go to the green fog area in e3m3rq, save your game, exit Quake, then start again and reload.
Anything else using stuffcmd will suffer from similar.
It's something we're aware of but haven't yet found a robust solution for. Ideally some kind of "area flags" would be best, but that's going to really disrupt the file formats.
#334 posted by necros [99.227.132.108] on 2012/01/23 02:14:40
just use non-saved vars for that.
ie:
nosave .float isCShiftReset
along with an
if (!self.isCShiftReset)
resetCShift(self);
in a player think.
#335 posted by mh [78.152.238.250] on 2012/01/23 02:55:59
There are a number of different ways of tackling it when you die/respawn. We could also stuff default values on respawn, or track changes made via stuffcmd engine-side.
The big problem is across the save/exit Quake/restart Quake/load boundary. The is visible too in other maps such as ne_tower, where r_wateralpha is stuffed after you shoot out the wooden boards at the start. Go halfway up the tower, save, exit, restart, load and go back down - water is now opaque again.
Right now I don't see a clean way of resolving this without format modifications.
Nahahra has a RestoreGame QC function which is used to re-stuff specific values that may be used in a map. That's quite a nasty way of doing it IMO (I'd prefer to see them as worldspawn entries) and it still doesn't deal with the case where values can dynamically change as you progress through a map.
Extending the save game system seems to be the only way (possibly by adding a state file so as to leave .sav files intact and usable in other engines) but I'm wary of the idea in case I've missed anything.
Save Points
#336 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/23 06:16:14
Please read ....
http://forums.inside3d.com/viewtop...
Please! This save game crap must die.
Save games are for when you exit Quake and restart. Not for dying and respawning. Better concept in thread.
Rats
#337 posted by Baker [69.47.165.224] on 2012/01/23 07:47:41
My idea would only work for coop :(
Textures
#338 posted by sock [96.49.154.150] on 2012/01/27 04:01:58
Somebody over at Q3World posted a link to a high resolution texture pack.
http://raynescorner.weebly.com/tex...
Maybe of help to your project as your are using stuff that size (1024x1024). Most of the texture are generic materials which could be useful for rock, concrete and brick etc.
Multitexture Not Supported
#339 posted by ionous [76.24.156.217] on 2012/01/29 00:07:06
I get the above warning whenever I try to run the demo. I have never seen this before. Anyone know what it is, and how to fix it?
Multitexture Not Supported
#340 posted by mh [78.152.244.76] on 2012/01/29 02:28:53
What's your gfx card?
Also, there are two "Multitexture Not Supported" errors in the engine - "multitexture not supported (GetProcAddress failed)" and "multitexture not supported (extension not found)" - which of them do you get?
Sock
#341 posted by ijed [190.196.61.235] on 2012/01/29 05:27:23
Posted to the internal forum, thanks.
Multitexture Not Supported (extension Not Found)
#342 posted by dooomer [123.154.148.151] on 2012/01/31 15:17:19
I get this error too when I tried to run the engine alone (i.e. it's running OK when "-game rmqwinter11" has been added to its command line).
I deleted the config.cfg in id1 folder, and then it runs OK too.
Well
#343 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/31 15:33:12
There's something incompatible in your config. It'll default to that config if there isn't one in the mod folder - you can place an empty one there (or one without whatever the offending line is) to avoid losing or moving your id1 config.
As to the cause - dunno.
#344 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.119.204] on 2012/01/31 20:04:19
http://youtu.be/0rqP7sqoSbg
Best bug ever. Make it official.
#345 posted by mh [78.152.235.29] on 2012/01/31 20:32:28
I've no idea how a config setting could affect the ability to detect a GL extension. The only thing that would make any sense might be if you've specified a bad video mode for which OpenGL acceleration is unavailable (like maybe a 16-bit mode on some funky hardware that may hypothetically not accelerate 16-bit modes, although I've never seen that happen).
TF
#346 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/31 21:19:37
Hahah - thats the magic system run amok. They're duplicating themselves and dimension dooring to your position. Skill 3?
If you build a test level with a vore in it try setting caster_level to 5+ and playing on NM.
They'll call in lightning from an empty sky, summon hordes and forcewall you.
Facewall is basically 'everything in this big circle gets gibbed'
#347 posted by Ankh [88.199.103.6] on 2012/01/31 21:46:56
Yesterday I got the same vore duplication effect on e4m2. It was surprising - first I thought it just teleported near to me but it was sending copies after me. A bug I hope :)
Yeah
#348 posted by ijed [200.73.66.2] on 2012/01/31 22:37:31
The code is unfinished, so buggy as well.
Directq.exe - Unable To Locate Component
#349 posted by ionous [76.24.156.217] on 2012/01/31 23:43:24
The application has failed to start because d3dx9_43.dll was not found. Re-installing the application may fix this problem.
I got the above warning when I tried to run the engine with 'rmqwinter11' added. I don't use a custom .cfg. I'm not sure what kind of graphics card I have, my computer IQ is pretty low.
#350 posted by mh [78.152.235.29] on 2012/02/01 00:55:28
DirectQ currently can't run this - you'll need to wait on the next version which will support it.
For that error you just need to update your DirectX to the latest version. (Having D3D10 or 11 isn't enough - D3D9 is completely separate and needs it's own update. Updating D3D9 won't affect your install of 10 or 11 if you have them.)
Oh, And Mh...
#351 posted by ionous [76.24.156.217] on 2012/02/01 03:07:31
I have:
NVIDIA GeForce2 MX/MX 400
This computer is almost ten years old, so it's probably not cutting edge technology.
#352 posted by mh [78.152.235.29] on 2012/02/01 04:29:28
Never gonna work.
DirectQ absolutely requires vertex and pixel shader support at D3D9 or better level. That means a GeForce FX or better. Even an Intel 915 chip will run it, but the shader support is required.
DirectQ is not going to be a good engine for RMQ for at least 6 months though - the devil is in the dynamic lights - it runs incredibly jerky and sluggish when they start going (and RMQ is full of them).
E2m1rq
#353 posted by MadFox [94.215.210.233] on 2012/02/04 02:07:26
Amazed by the cutscenes it took some time before I ended up in the little red room.
I shot the grunt and although the weak floor I couldn't get out, lost all my shells till I went ogre berseric with the chainsaw. Haha!
Started again, and was really excited by the topnotched map design. It took some time before I could identify the feeling of walking in a Q2 level with Q1 monsters.
I had to learn not to jump on ladders, and the large map environnement gave me a great fight with lots of enemies. I played on normal and didn't had the feeling they were perculiar strong.
The heat of the fight was more in the third part, after going up the elevator to the place with the two turrets.
I saved going up the elevetor, but died each time after reloading the level. I decided to save the level somewhat further, but kept on reloading the elevator.
Found one secret, and was amused the way the level developped. By its large format I had the idea of playing a sequence.
Not a bad idea, but to play the level it took me 90 minutes. (and didn't waist a minute of pleasure!)
Little things, like the gloom of the pent kept on the screen after reloading, a grunt frozen in its pose. Not things to mention.
Yes, a real warped Quake level!
Errrmmmm
#354 posted by Shambler [86.25.164.132] on 2012/12/21 10:44:31
I finally played some of these maps as I downloaded this to play Tronyn's thing.
It's a useful demonstration of a lot of things Quake is NOT about:
OTT coloured lighting
Levels that looks just like Quake 2
Ice skating strafing monsters
Tinkly armour shards and health boosts
Massive glowing balls of light around laser shots
Floating footballs that shoot you
Turrets
Off centre weapons
Changed sound effects to sound worse and more human or just bad
Horrible distracting screen blurring which hides how much damage you're actually taking
Enemy that are more like DM bots than monsters
There's a few things that Quake can be about in this:
More detailed ammo boxes
More detailed textures
Axe-wielding grunts
Hallways full of zombies waiting to rise and attack
Large stone slabs that grind out to form a bridge
Protip:
#355 posted by negke [31.18.169.194] on 2012/12/21 10:53:58
r_motionblur 0
Massive Glowing Balls
#356 posted by rj [82.3.233.25] on 2012/12/21 22:18:05
is that not the old gl_flashblend 0
#357 posted by onetruepurple [91.240.47.30] on 2012/12/21 22:20:19
r_show_coronas
Also NOT About:
#358 posted by Shambler [86.25.164.132] on 2012/12/21 23:09:17
Cutscenes.
Bland mapping.
Levels of difficulty that make Warpspasm seem relaxed.
Even more lurid coloured lighting.
Flying facehugging jellyfish.
But...
Zombie knights are very cool tho.
I'm kinda glad I didn't play this at the time. Compared to E1M6 Remake which, despite some annoyances with new sounds, falling damage, etc, had plentiful cool additions to the map and an exploratory vibe that felt like it was enhancing E1M6, this pack has kept all the bad bits, and either made them worse or added new stuff that's even worse, and hasn't really compensated with slick map remakes. Given the direction it was going it's probably a good thing the mod disbanded.
Hew!
#359 posted by MadFox [84.26.175.209] on 2012/12/21 23:45:06
Zombie knights won!
And they will haunt you Shambler..,
you, with your lack of grenade damage!
#360 posted by Yhe1 [108.0.230.2] on 2013/06/06 09:09:36
I was trying to play Fort Driant under this, but the enforcers with the Hyperblaster does not do damage
Huh
#361 posted by ijed [190.22.7.132] on 2013/06/06 10:53:09
What we did was enemy_whatever = enemy_rmq in a separate qc file in order to support external mods.
Now that I think about it, the extended damage system might have needed those hooks as well.
Sorry it didn't work. Thanks for playing it though.
No Proper Quoth 2 Support
#362 posted by gb [46.142.29.170] on 2013/06/07 02:28:22
Boy, was that idea over the top. Let people play Nehahra, Quoth and everything else under RMQ. :)
Oh well, you have to do something like that once in your life or you haven't lived.
I've been thinking to overhaul the e1m6rq demo, add missing Chthon animations and make everything cast shadows with detail brushes. And add the missing room behind those crushers you have to block with crates.
Hmm. Maybe a new project. Sometime.
Yup, thanks for playing it Yhe1.
#363 posted by gb [46.142.29.170] on 2013/06/07 02:29:28
And make the boilers only destroyable by Chthon. The boss fight is much too easy. >:-)
Question
#364 posted by Tronyn [24.79.126.117] on 2013/06/07 03:09:20
what plans, if any, are there for any as-yet-unreleased RMQ maps? Will we see a partial release eventually?
#365 posted by Yhe1 [108.0.230.2] on 2013/06/07 05:41:35
It's was quite fun actually, Hope you guys can add full support in the future
The Fate Of The Maps
#366 posted by gb [46.142.5.137] on 2013/06/07 09:09:44
The Schism guys are still working on Schism, which I believe uses RMQ maps.
I've considered bundling some improved versions of my old RMQ maps and putting them up somewhere sometime, but since - to my current knowledge - Schism makes use of some of them, I'll only do that (quietly) when the Schism release has come and gone. I would probably fork such a release from the Demo 2 progs since I personally feel that was the team's pinnacle.
Also, the Scout's Journey environments are partly based in my RMQ maps, but their appearance has changed greatly. I had to dump certain parts of the levels due to technical reasons, replacing them with completely new setpieces, while other levels have been chopped up and their components are sort of recycled. Quite a bit of the actual brushwork from RMQ episode 1 will end up in Scout's Journey in some form though, so Quake fans might have a deja vu or several in the unlikely event they ever play it.
Schism should be *much* closer to a "faithful Quake remake" though, whatever that actually is.
Louis will know a lot more about Schism, naturally.
Bang
#367 posted by ijed [200.28.237.209] on 2013/06/07 18:55:54
Lost a post with error 42 :(
Schism will use some but not all the RMQ maps and have a much more manageable release schedule - a few maps at a time as opposed to 30+ in one go.
Right now I'm working on a rubicon2 project to get some perspective, after that I want to arm up schism release #1.
Thanks
#368 posted by Tronyn [24.79.126.117] on 2013/06/08 08:45:20
Thanks for the update guys
I paid attention to the RMQ site, so I just want to say: I want to see that outdoor medieval map (was it e1m2?) with the dragon seen from above. I always thought it would be cool to link all the maps in one of id's episode together into one single giant outdoor map (I even started doing this one time with E2, but soon gave up). I liked the idea of seeing what was outside of/around these maps.
#369 posted by gb [46.142.14.167] on 2013/06/08 09:16:19
That was one of the maps I had to cut up in order for it to be playable as a q3bsp (and because frankly, there was no real plan behind the design of that outdoor area).
The vis behaves very differently in q3bsp, you can't have the crazy outdoor areas that some RMQ maps have (and some of your own, Tronyn).
That map is completely open to the sky; you can grapple through holes in the roofs and run around on top of the entire thing. It was one of the extreme things we did. Without MH's engine(and BSP2), that wouldn't even have seemed feasible.
It's one of the maps that are on a list of things to fix up, whenever time permits.
Though frankly, I believe its SJ incarnation will be better.
Maudlin
#370 posted by ijed [186.37.203.188] on 2013/06/09 02:29:27
it would have been nice if rmq had worked. If i could just unstick myself from this ancient game i could do some awesome new creations...
I Know How You Feek
#371 posted by Tronyn [24.79.126.117] on 2013/06/09 09:42:08
but the ancient atmospgere of this game is a big part of why you're here at all.
plus there's always/also personal reasons
Don't Worry
#372 posted by ijed [190.22.39.43] on 2013/06/10 02:06:31
I sutil lime Quake :)
Awesome
#373 posted by ijed [190.22.39.43] on 2013/06/10 02:07:05
Had the keyboard in Spanish :P

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