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Posted by Lardarse [62.31.165.111] on 2008/09/12 08:37:57

A single player experience, carved out of czg and Vondur's e1m1rmx. Features non-linear gameplay, and an idea that I would like to encourage more mappers to experiment with.
Screenshots:
http://qexpo.tastyspleen.net/uploa...
http://qexpo.tastyspleen.net/uploa...
http://qexpo.tastyspleen.net/uploa...
Download:
http://qexpo.tastyspleen.net/uploa...
http://shub-hub.com/files/maps_sin...

Hey! A New Map!
#1 posted by dooomer [65.49.14.94] on 2008/09/12 12:25:49
Good, this month we are showered with new releases!
Ummm.
#2 posted by Shambler [77.97.138.124] on 2008/09/12 14:27:31
So this will be secret-hunting in someone else's map, then.
Not quite the gameplay revolution one anticipated.
My Thought, Exactly...
#3 posted by the silent [82.185.144.141] on 2008/09/12 14:29:18
Shambler is one smart guy.
Well...
#4 posted by Megazoid [78.32.145.101] on 2008/09/13 02:26:26
I enjoyed it. The supply units were a nice addition, and perhaps they could be used again in future maps.
I found myself getting possessive with my keys. Almost as if I was instinctively saving them up for some sweet raiding armour, or a flying mount. If only the blasted mob would drop more loot!
Cool mod, and map hack. Your effort was definitely appreciated. Thanks!
Megazoid
#5 posted by Lardarse [62.31.165.111] on 2008/09/13 05:47:13
perhaps they could be used again in future maps
That's exactly my point about pretty much everything included in the code. It's all there to be used. And tweaked as and when necessary.
As for what you were hoping to find: I deliberately didn't put any weapons or other goodies in machines or behind doors that required red keys. Because of certain key locations, it would leave it very tight for being able to complete the map. Maybe someone else can experiment with that idea...
And a flying mount? Well... PM did make a model of a quakeguy riding a dragon... Maybe someone else could include that...
I'll
#6 posted by ijed [190.20.81.131] on 2008/09/13 05:57:38
Play before I make comment, but . . .
I'll play before I make comment.
Lardarse
#7 posted by gb [89.27.206.84] on 2008/09/13 15:33:26
OK, this is obviously not so much about the map... it's a map we all know and love.
The thingies-that-give-ammo-etc (I can never remember that English word) work well, just like in OUM.
It is an interesting idea with the red keycards. I had to godmode for the last one, because it was above slime, I was at 32 health or something and the suits were not respawning. Bummer. Die or exit, was the question.
Putting several locks on something is in principle good, and thus the exit reminded me of St. Francis' Folly in the original Tomb Raider (where you have to collect 4 keys, each in a room with a puzzle.)
The multi-card requirement to buy the silver and gold keys is basically just the same as having to find 4 silver keys instead of one... you're just miltiplying the number of keys needed there.
It's like you now need 8 red keycards, 1 silver, and 1 gold keycard. /shrug
Didn't care for the buy-keycard-with-keycard mechanism; however, I think in principle, buy-object-with-(keys, money, whathaveyou) is worthwhile because it rewards exploring.
It is a bit extreme to require multiple keycards to get one other keycard, though.
The multicard lock on the exit was good, because it was the first time I stopped and thought. However, it would have been better if the cards for that were hidden behind traps or puzzles (like in the TR level I quoted above.)
Some hiding places were pretty good already, mainly the one that required jumping and balancing around the pipes. It was good because it felt cool to find the little niche.
The ones in slime, behind crates etc. weren't so good. If you want me to work for something, slime diving isn't enough. Puzzles, traps, and trickjumps are good.
So, multiple keys in Quake: YES (func_key which takes a model, plz)
Keys to pay for other keys: NO
Keys hidden: YES, but in a clever way, and should not be overdone.
good work anyway. Thanks.
Teknikal Problem
#8 posted by Jaromir83 [87.249.134.180] on 2008/09/13 22:37:17
"If necessary for your engine,
you should tell it to allocate a minimum of 32 megabytes." how do I do this pls? I see only yellow smudges using "fitzquake080 -game e1m1red +sv_aim 1 +gl_texturemode +skill 1 -gl_texsort 0 -gl_detail 1 +sv_aim 1 +map e1m1red". thanks
#9 posted by Spirit [213.39.169.13] on 2008/09/13 22:42:08
-heapsize 32768
Or just use -heapsize 64000 if you have enough RAM.
Interesting Concept
#10 posted by ijed [190.20.114.173] on 2008/09/13 23:53:32
Using the keycards as money, effectively. I'dve preferred if the gold key was to activate the slipgate (which was cool btw) instead of the midpoint door, which could have stayed red.
In fact it'dve been good to see another colour of cards used for bonus items or events - ammo, armour, deactivating traps etc. and only red cards for level progression events.
Played It...
#11 posted by metlslime [76.126.129.145] on 2008/09/15 06:09:45
two things:
1. I'd get rid of the gold and silver keys, and focus on the essence of the map, which is the red keys -- buying one type with another is an unneccesary complication. I realize you wanted people to FIND the places where you buy the keys, but you already have a mechanic for getting people to explore, and that is finding the red keys in the first place.
2. This type of collection gameplay has a nice side benefit, and that is you can hide more keys than are strictly needed, which allows you to make the hiding places more difficult. You can then have some way for people to spend the extra keys on a cool reward, so that people have a sense of 100% completion.
3. It would be nice to somehow print the current key count on the screen or in the HUD somewhere. I can check the console of course, but seeing it in the HUD would be best. If you were willing to override one of the stats (cells, armor) with keys, that would be nice, but of course would mean you'd be seriously modding quake at that point, rather than just adding a purely level-design-related game mechanic.
Multiple Replies
#12 posted by Lardarse [62.31.165.111] on 2008/09/18 19:26:27
The thingies-that-give-ammo-etc (I can never remember that English word) work well, just like in OUM.
The OUM documentation refers to them as wall-mounted storage, but I prefered to think of them as vendimg machines. And while on the surface, they work very much like in OUM, the code is somewhat different. The three biggest changes in my version are that they can give give amounts that aren't a whole box worth, they can require payment (more on this below), and the triggering works differently.
It is an interesting idea with the red keycards. I had to godmode for the last one, because it was above slime, I was at 32 health or something and the suits were not respawning. Bummer. Die or exit, was the question.
Yes, some of them are in difficult places. If it's the one just before the main slime area, then you might be able to get it without dying with practice.
Putting several locks on something is in principle good, and thus the exit reminded me of St. Francis' Folly in the original Tomb Raider (where you have to collect 4 keys, each in a room with a puzzle.)
I've not played that. It reminds me of the N64 platformers (like Super Mario 64 and Banjo-Kazooie), where you have to collect things to open doors.
Didn't care for the buy-keycard-with-keycard mechanism; however, I think in principle, buy-object-with-(keys, money, whathaveyou) is worthwhile because it rewards exploring.
It is a bit extreme to require multiple keycards to get one other keycard, though.
Maybe. I wanted to show with these the ability for trigger_vend to require payment. I did consider putting in a grenade launcher that required red keys to buy. But With the cost that I would've wanted to make it (at least 5), that would have required hiding another 5 keys, which probably would've meant having to carve at least one more entirely new area. But time was running short to do that and to re-balance the gameplay for the possibility of a grenade launcher, and I didn't really like the potential abundance of rocket ammo (even with no extra ammo, you could potentially get 15 rockets on nightmare, and that's with ogres only giving 1 rocket instead of 2). I think that higher tier weapons are overused, anyway...
The multicard lock on the exit was good, because it was the first time I stopped and thought. However, it would have been better if the cards for that were hidden behind traps or puzzles (like in the TR level I quoted above.)
Maybe if I had more time. It wasn't until about 12 hour before I released the map that I was sure that I would be able to finish it before the end of QExpo.
Some hiding places were pretty good already, mainly the one that required jumping and balancing around the pipes. It was good because it felt cool to find the little niche.
That one is probably one of the harder ones to get to. I originally intended the player to jump onto the box, and then jump onto the pipes, with the box jump being an alternative. It wasn't until I had about 20 hours to go that I discovered that that only works in DarkPlaces. so I improvised slightly with a thin clip brush. If you walk onto the rim of the pipe and then jump, you can get on top (there is a red key here on hard). I should've possibly put something there to make it more obvious that it was possible to get up that way. Walking/jumping around the rim of the pipe can get you around, but not on top.
The ones in slime, behind crates etc. weren't so good. If you want me to work for something, slime diving isn't enough. Puzzles, traps, and trickjumps are good.
I tried to put in a mixture of easy keys and hard keys, both in terms of finding them and getting them. Given the time that I had, I tried to do the best that I could. Also, I thought that jumping puzzles were universally hated. I know I included one at the end, but there's at least 3 routes that can be taken to get to it that don't require weapon or monster assistance.
func_key which takes a model, plz
In theory, yes, but there would be some issues that would need dealing with. Also, why a func_ ?
And The Rest...
#13 posted by Lardarse [62.31.165.111] on 2008/09/18 19:29:19
Using the keycards as money, effectively. I'dve preferred if the gold key was to activate the slipgate (which was cool btw) instead of the midpoint door, which could have stayed red.
As money: Yes. I did consider using coins, but I didn't like the fact that they would suggest that they were for luxury (which there weren't any of in the map), rather than for necessity. And I didn't like having 2 or more of the 3 buttons cost red keys. It seemed a little inellegant to me.
In fact it'dve been good to see another colour of cards used for bonus items or events - ammo, armour, deactivating traps etc. and only red cards for level progression events.
So red keys and coins, maybe?
two things:
It's always somewhat reassuring to know that the admin can count...
1. I'd get rid of the gold and silver keys, and focus on the essence of the map, which is the red keys -- buying one type with another is an unneccesary complication. I realize you wanted people to FIND the places where you buy the keys, but you already have a mechanic for getting people to explore, and that is finding the red keys in the first place.
Yeah, true. Maybe if I had decided to start doing this earlier than August 11th, eh?
2. This type of collection gameplay has a nice side benefit, and that is you can hide more keys than are strictly needed, which allows you to make the hiding places more difficult. You can then have some way for people to spend the extra keys on a cool reward, so that people have a sense of 100% completion.
There's two seperate points here. There are two seperate occasions where the "more hidden than necessary" comes into play. The first is that the door to enter the main building has a cost of 5, but there are 9/8/7 (easy/normal/hard) keys hidden before the door. And at the end, you need 3/4/5 to turn the slipgate on, with however many keys aren't used at that point (9, unless you didn't open the slime bridge) potentially available.
As for rewarding the player for finding all of the keys, the secret gained from colecting them all was something quick put in near to the deadline I had set myself. There are a number of potential ways to reward a player for either finding everything or not not spending as much as the level designer possibly intended. Giving a reward when exiting the level based on how many red keys were held when hitting the changelevel; a between-levels shop to buy things; a chance to buy something right before leaving the level. I could also have put something in the level for the player to buy goodies, but I wanted to avoid the possibility of the player becoming stuck because he doens't have enough to complete the level, and is somehow separated from the keys that he needs, or he just can't find them. Maybe I could've had a machine that would let you buy an extra biosuit. That, however, would've needed me to add powerup giving to trigger_vend, which (including support functions) is already big enough to warrant its own file...
3. It would be nice to somehow print the current key count on the screen or in the HUD somewhere. I can check the console of course, but seeing it in the HUD would be best. If you were willing to override one of the stats (cells, armor) with keys, that would be nice, but of course would mean you'd be seriously modding quake at that point, rather than just adding a purely level-design-related game mechanic.
Yes. I wasn't sure how to go about this. I didn't want to hide any information from the player that they would normally expect to see. There's a possibility of a centerprint hack (Team Fortress uses this technique for displaying grenades), but I'm not even sure where to begin with that. I have, however, just thought of a very interesting idea...
Nice
#14 posted by Ankh [88.199.103.6] on 2008/09/18 22:10:06
I had some 10 minutes of fun finding all the keys. The were hidden very nicely. Not too hard to find. I couldn't find the secret but had one card left while exiting the level. Could you give a hint please?
Lardarse
#15 posted by golden_boy [89.27.218.179] on 2008/09/18 22:25:09
good work anyway.
When you have items that are potentially necessary, as keycards, over slime, biosuits should probably just respawn. Like in Ricky's map. I think biosuits should probably always respawn unless the thing which they are needed for is only optional.
func_key, yeah, we're thinking of an item_key/trigger_lock combination now. I might contact you about this still, since your work is somewhat similar there. To get the additional keys displayed, you could expand the TAB bar (press Tab ingame) with a very simple inventory. A centerprinted text-only list of carried items. That would require engine modifications, but it's rather easy to do. You could distribute patched versions of a few engines with your mod. Or put a pistol to engine coders' heads.
What I meant with "better hiding (puzzles etc)" was that the map should ideally be built around finding the keys. From the ground up. It's clear that you didn't have the time for that.
Jumping puzzles, hmm, I like them, if they don't become the primary theme of the map. I'll always jump those crates to get an armor, for example. If a puzzle (jumping or otherwise) was required to get to an important key, possibly with some monsters thrown in, I'd love it. I intend to do that actually. Look at the silver key route in e1m5; it's a very crude obstacle course, but the idea is there. Why not go more in depth with that. Sure, it's only traps in that map, but why not throw in a crate puzzle or similar. As long as it doesn't take ages to complete.
#16 posted by Trinca [89.180.191.89] on 2008/09/19 11:30:18
ok, finally i played is not bad but i will not make a map for it for sure!
i think the mod is fun the extra keys were nice i also think a bonus should be given for those who coulght all keys!!!
Mariah Carey naked in final wallpaper? :) if all key cought? :)
anyway was fun good work!
#17 posted by spy [92.46.16.146] on 2008/09/20 06:19:57
>Mariah Carey naked in final wallpaper? :)
no way
i wanna see naked CZG instead
Well
#18 posted by spy [92.46.16.146] on 2008/09/20 06:23:24
i'd rather... :))))
Had Fun
#19 posted by mwh [118.93.20.2] on 2008/09/23 07:18:51
Liked it. I like finding this sort of secret though. How many keys are there? You say you get a secret when you find them all so I must be missing at least one... I think I have 4 keys left over after opening the exit on easy.
Does Anyone Read The Readme Files These Days?
#20 posted by Lardarse [62.31.165.111] on 2008/09/23 09:40:58
Best Use Of E1m1rmx Yet
#21 posted by Baker [69.47.51.111] on 2008/09/23 10:21:12
I thought the use of the red keys forced a lot of exploration and getting intimate with the map.
Aside from very difficult maps like Insomnia that require a lot of backtracking, very few maps really get "used".
I'll explain ...
1. Some mapper spends 6 months on a map.
2. Invests a lot of time in the brushwork for each area
3. Most areas have a couple of monsters
4. I kill the monsters and move on. Most players do. I'm not there to sight-see.
I've played e1m1rmx before. I played it out but never got "intimate" with the map because it could be finished without doing so.
With Insomnia, I remember the first time playing it I had to go all over the place 10 times to try to figure out how to continue.
A small number of maps managed to pull that off. Once Upon An Atrocity did. gmsp3 did to some extent.
But most maps don't slow your progress down to a crawl and force you to really pay attention to your surroundings and/or reward you for looking behind boxes, etc.
This "red keys" mod as I refer to it, adds not only extra motivation to scour the map but a higher bar to the concept of completeness.
Some players MUST kill every last monster to get satisfaction. Likewise, this added a "I'd like to find all the keys" dimension to that satisfaction.
And it gets a player to admire the well crafted surroundings more because the player is forced to "stop and smell the flowers a little" to progress without forcing an excessive amount of it.
There Was A README File?
#22 posted by mwh [118.93.20.2] on 2008/09/23 13:27:14
Don't be silly, no-one reads them.
First play demo http://python.net/~mwh/e1m1red_mwh... btw.
Baker:
#23 posted by metlslime [64.175.155.252] on 2008/09/23 21:13:04
this is a good point, and something that is solved in different ways by different games.
Secret-hunting is one, but this only works if you have some obvious secret item to tease the player with. Many quake levels actually do this, so that's good.
Beyond Good and Evil had a camera and you had a side-goal of photographing each species of creature in the game. This encourages you to look around, and especially look for strange grasses, mushrooms, etc. hiding in corners of caves.
Prince of Persia 4 (sands of time) had rooms full of bad guys, but after killing them, you had to discover what acrobatic tricks / combination of lever-pulls you needed to use to continue, which required studying the room. This also had a side effect that you pretty much need to fight the monsters to continue, becuase you can't stand still long enough to solve the puzzle if you have monsters attacking you. (Plus the savepoints didn't activate until the monsters died.)
Metroid Prime had scanning for lifeforms AND looking around to puzzle out how to continue.
Ah, Found Them All Now.
#24 posted by mwh [118.93.20.2] on 2008/09/24 01:06:24
So I like this map and concept. I think that having two kinds of keys -- one for progress, one for optional "stuff" -- would be good. I can imagine having the choice to spend your loot on the thunderbolt or the grenade launcher, for example.
I can see why you chose e1m1rmx as your base, lots and lots of places to hide stuff :)
Baker
#25 posted by mwh [118.93.20.2] on 2008/09/24 01:15:03
Yes, interesting point. I generally "sight see" in maps for two reasons: secret hunting, as mentioned by metl, and speedrunning, where you're looking for shortcuts, things to boost off, trying to work out the minimum that really has to be done to get out of the map.
Lots Of Hiding Places?
#26 posted by Lardarse [62.31.165.111] on 2008/09/24 13:26:23
I did still have to carve places for a few of them...
The explobox outside (by the 2 pipes up the rock face, with the one key behind, and another key on top for hard) was placed with speedrunning in mind, so that those with enough health (and a corresponding lack of common sense) can box jump over. Like I said in #12, I did intend that jumping on it then onto the pipe was also possible, although without coding changes (details, please), it only works in DP. I'm fairly sure that you can also get over with an OGJ or an enforcer boost - height to get on top of the thin clip brush is 48, or onto the diagonal pipe is 56 (I think) - but I didn't test it.
And as for having two kinds of keys -- one for progress, one for optional "stuff", should I show you as also voting for keys and coins?
Good Old Keys
#27 posted by golden_boy [89.27.237.51] on 2008/09/24 20:41:21
Prince of Persia 4 (sands of time) had rooms full of bad guys, but after killing them, you had to discover what acrobatic tricks / combination of lever-pulls you needed to use to continue, which required studying the room. This also had a side effect that you pretty much need to fight the monsters to continue, becuase you can't stand still long enough to solve the puzzle if you have monsters attacking you.
Same principle in Tomb Raider. The slow progress there is a bit extreme though. In Quake, you could run through most TR maps in 30 seconds (provided you survive the traps).
It comes down to lots of keys (and semi-hidden buttons), with trap gauntlets and puzzles thrown in that are non-optional. Some ladders and underwater currents are also not obvious, so you need to look closely. You'll often have to change the environment to proceed. Extend something you can climb on; raise and lower the water to get at levers/entrances; activate currents to make a long swim without drowning. Push blocks around to climb on or find a button, or to clear a path to a timed door.
The effect of actually deadly traps and realistic fall damage (in combination with bigger levels, deep chasms etc) is that you'll mostly want to Always Walk, instead of Always Run as in Quake. I have a finger on the Walk key almost constantly in TR.
It's only "key keys" in TR though, no "coin keys". A primitive "inventory ring" is used to manage the rather few objects you're carrying. Comparable to Hexen 2's inventory, but there simply aren't that many items. It's rudimentary, but works extremely well. If you have custom keys, it is very helpful to have this, although Lara will use the right key automatically on a lock, if she has it.
TR's secrets are typically plentiful and well-hidden; they contain primarily health and ammo, i.e. finding them makes the game easier. TR 2 takes secrets to the extreme; you'll only get items if you collect all three dragon statuettes in a level, i.e. you must find all secrets to get anything at all. The secrets are never mandatory though; since you don't get items ingame (in TR 2, the original game did give you items), they are purely a bonus, and reward exploration.
I'm surprised TR isn't more popular in this community. Is it because it is "for girls"? It did all those things, at the same time as Quake. Quake's gameplay seems very one-dimensional in comparison. id's engine is without a doubt better; but scope and vision, assets like transparent/moving water (including floating bodies), breakable glass, transparency, working rotation, semi-intelligent chasecam etc., and actual player model animations for swimming, jumping and climbing, and not least the level design, of the first couple TR games leave Quake and even Quake 2 in the dust. It's no contest.
The advantages of Quake are of a technical nature; a brilliant engine, customizability, and a set of working tools. The TR level editor seems to be... unpopular, and nothing is open source there.
The fact that we have discussions about more keys, traps and puzzles (and storytelling) at this point is kinda ironic.
IMO engines should start to include a simple inventory; there are working examples in Quake 2 and Hexen 2. Or else just give us a list when pressing Tab.
#28 posted by mwh [118.93.20.2] on 2008/09/25 23:03:04
I did still have to carve places for a few of them...
Sure, but the map had it's fair share of nooks and crannies and multiple levels and so on. Something like e1m2 would have been harder, I'd have thought.
Oh, respawning biosuits as in e4m1rmx would have been nice, but I'm sure someone said that already.
should I show you as also voting for keys and coins?
Yeah, I think so. Worth trying, anyway.

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