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Posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/14 14:45:38

A new (old) map for Quake - details in the ReadMe file.
Old-school...
Download:
http://www.mikewoodham.com/Quake/D...
Screenshots:
http://www.mikewoodham.com/Screens...
http://www.mikewoodham.com/Screens...
http://www.mikewoodham.com/Screens...

100??
#1 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/10/14 14:49:39
Jeez Mrs Woodham must be knackered by now...
Oi
#2 posted by Zwiffle [69.210.56.234] on 2004/10/14 15:03:12
Having problems running the map...
-game Fmb100 didn't work, and now I am saddened by the fact I cannot play this spectacular looking map. Batch file did not work also. Any help?
Yay!
#3 posted by Vondur [81.195.23.218] on 2004/10/14 15:08:03
nice level!
worked fine here!
thanks for the proper oldskool experience, mike und tronyn! rather funny map, tho in some areas i had no ammo, but still, it was good :)
Very Nice Map!
#4 posted by Hrimfaxi [83.92.1.72] on 2004/10/14 17:22:31
Looked good - played good
No problems here.
Strange that Vondur says he had no ammo - I thought that there was to much ammo around the level.
Mike you was right about the 25 min. frag time. I made it in 24.45 on hard.
Thanks for the experince.
THANK YOU
#5 posted by Megazoid [62.252.32.14] on 2004/10/14 17:47:37
Thank you, thank you.... finally a map to play! Weeeeeee
Great Map
#6 posted by aguirRe [213.101.71.57] on 2004/10/14 18:25:24
My only complaints would be a bit too high contrast sunlight and too little armor on Normal skill. I had to fight too many shamblers without any armor at all. I first missed the YA and couldn't get back until the final showdown (where it came in pretty handy I must add).
Otherwise beautiful visuals (brushwork/texturing/lighting) in my favourite temple style and fun gameplay. I especially enjoyed the early "fiends, what fiends?" surprise ...
I know Mike had a lot of trouble with the terrain, but it really adds significant value to the map.
Kudos to both of you!
Chif, Chif
#7 posted by Trinca [213.13.51.146] on 2004/10/14 21:34:11
After a lot of craps posts...Q2, Q3, unreal and the new shit game Doom3...a good SP Quake map :) nice work i love it!!!
Classy Stuff
#8 posted by nitin [138.217.0.118] on 2004/10/14 22:58:40
nice ideas, nice execution.
And teh terrian was pretty cool.
Whee!
#9 posted by necros [66.185.84.208] on 2004/10/14 23:51:47
nice map! great brushwork. got hung up on some clipping problems a few times... (i cheated once because a clip problem tossed me into the lava...)
anyway, brutal gameplay, but plenty beatable. lots of rockets made the ending a bit easy because of the gl.
also, i missed the NG i think... only had the sng and ssg... couldn't find the secret for the lg.
and no armour... at all. :P
still, it was a lot of fun!
demo (skill1): http://www.planetquake.com/necros/...
Necros
#10 posted by nitin [138.217.0.118] on 2004/10/15 00:58:25
LG secret just involves jumping around the terrain.
Oh Btw
#11 posted by Vondur [81.195.20.33] on 2004/10/15 01:28:52
and i haven't found nailgun ;)
probably because i didn't follow the proper route and started jumping to lava secrets with teleporters... so all the nails were useless for me... hence lack of shells ;)
I Forgot
#12 posted by aguirRe [213.101.70.203] on 2004/10/15 05:38:31
I found a way to get to the GK without the SK (slowly) ...
Some Answers
#13 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/15 07:33:07
Shambler: she's been a good ol' wagon, daddy but she done broke' down! (100 is the monster count, which I am sure you had spotted)
Zwiffle: Thanks for pointing that out. Item corrected. But as nobody else spotted it, we can keep it to ourselves OK?
Vondur: So you must run in all guns blazing - even if there's nothing there :-) How could you have run out of ammo? If you missed the nail gun (SNG), you must have missed half the map. There is no ordinary nail gun.
Hrimfaxi: 24:45, just about right. Glad you liked it.
aguirRe: Thanks. And thanks for your help. And yes, I was aware of the way to get the GK without the SK. But think of what you'd miss if you used it!!
necros: sorry about the clipping errors. I really did spend a lot of time clearing those (or so I thought). Can you point out where? No nail gun but three lots of armour - you walk past one at the start near the opening in the brick wall. Thanks for the demo, great stuff.
My thanks to Tronyn for allowing me to play with his maps, and to aguirRe for his help with utilities and my problems with terrain.
Yeah
#14 posted by Vondur [195.128.65.237] on 2004/10/15 09:08:42
mike, seems like i missed half of the map...
gonna replay it cuz i killed 69 out of 100 there..
My Thanks
#15 posted by Tronyn [70.64.188.34] on 2004/10/15 12:55:13
to Mike for making such an awesome map. The outdoor terrain section is incredible. Unlike some people (myself included, hehe), Mike obviously knows how to make challenging gameplay that is still fair. Repeating the theme from FMB8 was a wise choice, as my original theme with the scraps was really haphazard and somewhat cruddy. The title was pure genius as well :)
I didn't know this was in the works until just recently (a pleasant surprise), so I actually started making something out of some of the same scraps as well. Maybe in 6 months it will be out (that's what I say for everything) as I have little time for mapping at this point.
Is It Possible
#16 posted by nitin [138.217.0.118] on 2004/10/16 22:34:43
to have terrain in q1 with monsters on it? Or is that one of the difficulties you ran in with mike?
...
#17 posted by necros [66.185.84.80] on 2004/10/16 23:48:34
from personal experience, i'd say no, unless the terrain was really smooth and featureless.
the problem with terrain comes from the way qbsp extends the brushes to create the hulls 1 and 2. it creates troughs between neighbouring brushes on edges which the player (and monsters) get hung up on...
Necros
#18 posted by nitin [138.217.0.118] on 2004/10/17 00:09:33
could you repeat that last paragraph in english rather than in mapper speak?
Sorry...
#19 posted by necros [66.185.84.80] on 2004/10/17 00:43:31
i've been discussing stuff with aguire last week and i just tend to slip into that now and again...
basically, in order for quake to do collision detection for players and monsters, qbsp builds invisible "hulls" which are actually just extruded versions of the original map. the game then performs point entity collision detection (which is faster than boundingbox collision detection and was what was needed to make the game work back when it was made) like with grenades and rockets, but against the extruded version of the map.
but because qbsp isn't perfect, the extrusion process sometimes makes odd geometry like troughs betweens brushes.
original map:
http://www.planetquake.com/necros/...
you can see, i've traced the edges in black. this is the normal, visible hull that is usually in q1 maps.
hull1 (extruded version made visible with aguire's qbsp):
http://www.planetquake.com/necros/...
the red lines denote where the edges are in the normal visible hull. this is hull1 used for collision on player sized monsters. (and the player...)
you can see how the brushes have been pushed outward-- extruded and has formed troughs on the edges.
in fact, i noticed later that a more visible example is on the edge which is behind the text in the second shot. :P you can see the trough shape that qbsp made more clearly there.
anyway, this is why making terrain with monsters on it would be difficult. the monsters would have a hard time moving around because they'd be getting stuck on these troughs.
sorry about the quality of the pics, btw...
hope that explains it. :)
Necros
#20 posted by nitin [138.217.0.118] on 2004/10/17 01:41:39
cheers for that.
What about having something that doesnt move much on terrain, like a vore?
1:05
#21 posted by lodis [213.112.228.84] on 2004/10/17 06:09:48
you can get the gk rather quickly, I think I'm using the same way as aguirRe, but it isn't at all slow. got it done in 1:05. anyone interested?
Uhm
#22 posted by lodis [213.112.228.84] on 2004/10/17 06:15:26
scratch that. 0:38.
Mr Woodham
#23 posted by Morfans [62.252.192.16] on 2004/10/17 07:03:39
Thoroughly enjoyed the map, but I think the terrain on fmb3 was better... ;-)
Anyway, given that lodis has done a run and I think it's a fun map we'd like to add it to SDA and throw it open to the whole speedrunning crew.
But to do that I'd like to incorporate our QdQstats patch stuff into a new progs.dat for the map. So could you please mail me (morfans@planetquake.com) with details/qc of what is in the custom progs.dat you supplied with the map?
Or just mail me and tell me you don't want me to tinker around with your precious work. Either way is good.
BTW. I'm posting this here because I couldn't find an e-mail address in the .txt that came with the map. :-)
Nitin
#24 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/17 09:50:06
OK, more or less what necros said. I have a screenshot from FMB100 that shows the hulls situation a little more clearly, with another showing the editor's view of the same area. Note that my terrain is made up solely of triangular brushes and ignore the colours in the game shot, they simply enhance the effect to make it more visible.
www.mikewoodham.com/Screenshots/ed...
www.mikewoodham.com/Screenshots/ga...
It seems that Qbsp does not like planes or angles that are very close to each other. Like necros, I have spent a long time bothering aguirRe with these 'clipping' problems and although there are a number of things you can do with terrain to reduce them, I have not yet found a way to definitely eliminate them. I thought that FMB100 was clear of problems but it seems that necros found some: see his post above.
Certainly, when you do build terrain in large amounts you should use a generator: this is to a) do it quickly and without tears b) make it accurate as above everything else, the slightest mis-alignment will introduce massive errors and c) make it look better than you can by hand.
See this link:-
http\\:www.mikewoodham.com/Quake/D...
These are three early versions where I was experimenting. Monsters.bsp is a small section of terrain where I wanted to see how to bring the monsters down the mountain. You will notice that at the start point the Ogres cannot see you but if you drop down they will see you and attack. In the first area only one Ogre drops down – this one is on the same level as the others but his bounding-box overhangs the flat surface. This seems significant.
As you go around the canyon floor, two other Ogres drop down and these were set on the slope below the level of the others and therefore out of sight. If you no_target and no_clip and move around, it is clear to see what I have done. Of course, in a real map you would not the start point where it is.
Chase.bsp is another terrain where I wanted to see what the monsters could cope with. The lower Ogre will come down the track quite easily and eventually will be on the ground. The second, higher Ogre will get so far around the track but not be able to get past a narrow section, which the player can easily cope with. Neither map is complete - they are experimental only. The first Ogre will also follow you back up the track (provided that you don’t kill him first!)
So, you can put monsters on terrain and climbing down can be reasonably controlled. Climbing up terrain is dependant on the angle of the slope and so far, I can only tell you that it needs to be quite wide, not too bumpy and not too steep. I eventually gave up trying to build a large-scale terrain and therefore discontinued my experiments with monsters.
Finally, there is one of the original large terrains that I built to try to import Tronyn’s scraps into. It will not run in standard Quake, FitzQuake or DarkPlaces but will run in aguirRe’s development GL engine. There are a number of clipping errors evident – invisible walls and non-solid brushes. But it does give a flavour of what could be possible. I also have some caves that are very convincing.
Errrm... hope this helps?
Speedrunning
#25 posted by Morfans [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/17 10:03:45
Fmb3? I just looked that up to see it was over 6 years ago!!
Play with the map in what ever way you choose: the more people who see/play it the better.
As for the progs.dat, this was supplied to me by Preach following my search for simpler monster teleporting. As far as I can tell, it is about 4 lines of code for each manster and it simply allows the use of a flag to be set in the monster entity settings, which hides the monster from view until triggered triggered. In the editor, you place the monster where you want it to appear. This is much easier to use than the teleporting-from-another-room scenario. I think everyone should use Preach's progs.dat.
I will happily send you the file that Preach supplied me if you wish.
Links
#26 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/17 10:09:18
http://www.mikewoodham.com/Screens...
http://www.mikewoodham.com/Screens...
http://www.mikewoodham.com/Screens...
Mike
#27 posted by aguirRe [213.101.69.230] on 2004/10/17 10:47:36
Can you please post the d/l link too?
Yes Please.
#28 posted by Morfans [217.137.250.26] on 2004/10/17 10:48:05
That'd be lovely. :-)
Please send it to richard.skidmore@tesco.net though as the address I gave above (indeed all planetquake email addresses, it seems) is bolloxed at the moment.
Ta.
On What To Do With Teleports...
#29 posted by Preach [131.111.8.97] on 2004/10/17 11:04:38
There's a little more modification that just the code for each monster, but it's hidden in other QC files all over the place. I'd explain exactly what I did, but I no longer have the mod I made, so I'll have to go from memory on what I did.
The modification to each monster basically splits the precaching and the setting up of the monster into two seperate functions. In the first function it precaches all the models and sounds, then checks if the teleport flag is set. If it is set, then the function ends with the monster waiting to be triggered. If it's not set, it calls the second function.
The second function is the bit that sets the model, health, size, etc of the monster. This is either called straight away, or at the moment that the teleport is triggered. Near the bottom there is a very important function called, namely walkmonster_start. This is where one of the hidden changes comes in.
Walkmonster_start is in monsters.qc, and is used for setting up some AI stuff. But crucially it has a little part which creates a random delay before the monster starts thinking. This is important at the start to prevent crashes and also so that monsters don't have exactly syncronised frames. However, when you teleport monsters in, you don't need this delay, as the server is set up already. I've seen a few maps with teleportation where this isn't fixed, and teleporting monsters are frozen while they teleport. It's not fatal but it's kinda ugly, so I added an exception here for teleporting monsters.
Somewhere in the process of triggering the monsters I added the teleport flash and telefrag trigger, but I don't remember where that bit of code is, whether it required a new function, or whether I modified the existing ones in any way. Perhaps if mike can post the original source, I can figure that one out.
I expect that you guys don't need all that detail for adding the QdQstats patch, as they affect different sections of the code, and QdQs is probably a nice plugin type mod, but I figure some of that info might be useful for anyone who wants to adapt the teleporter code into another mod(like a monster patch). Of course, providing the code would probably be even more helpful, but I just don't have it with me...
Thanks Mike!
#30 posted by mkreuz [205.240.35.120] on 2004/10/17 11:31:26
One of the best oldtimers!
Links
#31 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/17 11:32:48
Bloody hell! I didn't screw my head on properly today, did I?
http://www.mikewoodham.com/Quake/D...
Morfans/Preach
#32 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/17 11:43:28
E-mail is on its way to Morfans.
Preach: did my Friday e-mail get to you OK. If so, I can send you a copy of your original .zip file to you.
E-mail Works
#33 posted by Preach [131.111.8.103] on 2004/10/17 15:09:11
Yeah, it got through, so if you send it there I'd be obliged
Nice One.
#34 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/10/17 15:15:46
Good fun map, interesting designs, some clevar touches, good gameplay shiznat, quite a few bits I liked, GK arena was fun, I killed 1 scrag and the 2 shamblers that's all =). Cool secrets although I only found 3/7, had 2 YA's at the end and none earlier on...
Yeah it was cool. Only problem was the "painted on trim error" common to many maps.
Great Map
#35 posted by Zwiffle [69.210.56.234] on 2004/10/17 15:35:17
99/100 enemies, 0/7 secrets, 15:17.
That was a tough map, it took me a good 6 or 7 tries to complete it. I found only one secret, but couldn't figure out how to get back from it, so I abonded it on my other runs. Very quality map. More!
Secrets
#36 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/17 15:43:38
Yes, I kind of forgot about the secrets. I had placed them in the map very early on in the build and just plonked things in them to 'mark' them. I never went back to them to consider what was in them and how they might be found or used.
There are three(!) YA, one GA, one Pent., one quad, and one transporter short cut. And as a bit of a teaser, the quad and pent. are very close to the final battle.
The LG is not a secret because you can see it and it's obvious how it can be obtained albeit that it needs to be done carefully.
Anyway, glad you liked it - I'll let the babies know.
Preach
#37 posted by Morfans [217.137.250.9] on 2004/10/18 00:34:43
"...and QdQs is probably a nice plugin type mod..."
Not really :-)
But if, as you say in your readme, you have commented all your lines with //PREACH then it should be quite easy.
It's complicated slightly that there's stuff for dragons and bowmen in there (only checked ai.qc so far) but thanks for your help and comments. I'll let you know how I get on. :-)
Preach Again
#38 posted by Morfans [217.137.250.11] on 2004/10/18 02:51:22
The only thing you didn't mention in your post above was the bit in triggers.qc that joins it all together :-)
There's a couple of people testing it at the moment then later on we'll upload and post on SDA in case anyone wants to play with trigger info, grenade timers and exit times accurate to 5 decimal places... ;-)
Fmb100 - Secrets
#39 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/18 12:58:09
I have been asked for some spoiler information and have produced a crib sheet if there is anyone who has not yet figured them out (and still wants to).
I won't post it here so ask here or e-mail me mikewoodham - AT - msn - DOT - com
Make A Nice Dm Map!!!
#40 posted by Trinca [194.65.31.249] on 2004/10/18 13:02:57
you got great maps, could you make next a dm map ? ;)
Trinca
#41 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/18 13:14:33
Sorry, I don't play DM and therefore don't map for DM. I wouldn't even know where to start.
For SP it's easy: start at a begining, and follow one or more routes to the end. And that's it. Sorry.
O.k
#42 posted by Trinca [194.65.31.249] on 2004/10/18 13:32:15
I just keep playing your Sp maps ;)and the new dm that will come bye other´s
Great Map Mike And Tronyn
#43 posted by Scragbait [69.159.46.129] on 2004/10/18 17:52:54
I've enjoyed all the FMB maps and this one is no exception. The one map that I'm working on has an uninterrupted line of sight that is almost as long as the one in this map. I'm not the only one beating up on the Quake engine. Here are some notes:
- I played Hard and got 100/100 kills and 5/7 secrets. I'm going back to see if I can get the missing 2. The map had a long play time which is also good and I love the old skool atmosphere. Haven't seen the hanging gutted corpses in awhile. Ran just fine on FitzQuake 0.75.
- There were some good surprise scraps and I died my share of times but the combat never was unfair.
- Lots of ammo, especially nails and grenades. This made Hard easier since ammo conservation wasn't needed.
- There was a nice variety of lighting, from dim and creepy to full daylight.
- The terrain is great - I went to the site in your readme to look for the util, but I'm not sure if I know which file to download. I'd like to try the program since I'm not crazy about manually making terrain.
- The secrets were good but one was really hard to reach for me - took a lot of tries. This is a good map for secret hunters.
- There is a pocket near the ramp that has a button beneath blocked by steel bars. I went looking for secrets and jumped in and became trapped. Perhaps it was supposed to be lava filled but instead is a pit you have to noclip out of.
- The end was a total party and using delays rather then counters added an element of urgency. I held my fire to get the infights going.
Cool map and it was nice to check here and see another FMB collectable.
Yeah
#44 posted by Vondur [195.128.65.237] on 2004/10/19 04:32:00
replayed the map with the proper route now.
found SNG. everything was nice and fun!
thanks again mike und tronyn!
real nice piece of stygian world :)
Mxyzptlk
#45 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/19 07:49:21
Scragbait: Glad you liked it. Sorry about the missing lava - I don't know what happened as it was there originally, honest. I only saw it when I played necros's demo, and by then it was too late to fix it. The Terrain Generator is here:-
http://countermap.counter-strike.n...
Read the tutorials.
Vondur: thank goodness you played the full route. Now you can try Speedrunning!
Found The Other Two
#46 posted by Scragbait [67.68.0.51] on 2004/10/19 21:54:58
Secrets. 7 out of 7 without cheats. Both were yellow armours.
Speedrunners Wanted
#47 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/10/27 17:48:57
OK, Fmb100 now designated a Speedrunners map!
http://www.planetquake.com/sda
Get over there now...
Also.
#48 posted by Shambler [82.38.194.13] on 2004/10/28 05:57:09
I notice with a certain amount of resigned and unsurprised amusement that they've also added Obiwan3 and Sadlark7 - which I did the first runs (admittedly quite amateur) on several years ago, but of course that got completely ignored, eh??
W3rd.
FMB100 will be interesting though.
Shambs
#49 posted by lodis [213.112.228.84] on 2004/10/28 09:05:26
It's not like we keep tabs on what runs you did or did not do like 6 years ago. The speedrunning world does not revolve around you :)
on another note I'd be interested in why adding obiwan3 and sadlark7 is amusing.
...
#50 posted by necros [142.150.5.249] on 2004/10/28 13:03:22
what the hell is obiwan3 and sadlark7? O_o
Necros
#51 posted by Vondur [81.195.22.253] on 2004/10/28 15:53:01
old classic maps from the dark 90s
Sadlark
#52 posted by HeadThump [65.140.58.80] on 2004/10/28 16:01:13
good series -- tended towards temples, internal missions and crampness.
Anyone Who Cares
#53 posted by underworldfan [128.195.64.98] on 2004/10/30 13:21:04
just to let you know i will post a review of this map, probably in the next week or so.
Finally Played This
#54 posted by metlslime [66.135.131.90] on 2004/10/31 22:45:29
nice work!
Speedruns
#55 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.72.24] on 2004/11/03 14:56:14
Two Fmb100 speedruns over at
http://www.planetquake.com/sda/
The longer one shows the 'correct' order to get the Quad damage secret.
The quick one... well, I knew that you could squeeze through and decided to leave it in as there was no benefit if you wanted 100% kills.
Finally Played This Too
#56 posted by PuLSaR [80.80.111.129] on 2004/11/04 08:39:25
Hey, that was fun=)
I had a feeling during the playtime that this map was made for me:) I has almost all features that I like to make and to play, I would have placed only some more monsters, but this time 100 is the key.
I enjoyed the final battle a lot. Overall good work: style, design, gameplay - I want more
Oh
#57 posted by PuLSaR [80.80.111.129] on 2004/11/04 08:40:58
I has almost all features
should be
It has almost all features
Insomnia Induced Free Time!
#58 posted by HeadThump [65.140.59.24] on 2004/11/07 03:41:31
Wicked sexy level, Mike. I wished I had more to add then groveling flattery, but it is hard to criticise the first thing to do a good job of scratching my Quake itch since Pulsar's last level.
I'll report to you a bit of a bug with Dark Places. It drops the game if you attempt a save game. Works fine in FitzQuake though.
Heh
#59 posted by R.P.G. [24.136.230.101] on 2004/12/10 09:22:59
Mike says: Great! Got to kill the fiends first
RPG says: What fiends? I don't remember any fiends.
Fiends say: we want 2 imple j00r ass!!
That moment was absolutely awesome, Mike. I'm guessing that my response was exactly what you had in mind.
Great map, too.
R.P.G.
#60 posted by Mike Woodham [81.153.114.41] on 2004/12/10 16:04:41
Just about right. Glad it worked for you and glad you liked the map (and so long after it was released?)

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