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Posted by Spirit [213.39.203.216] on 2010/01/09 10:57:07
The whole Quake 2 Episode 1 done for Quake 4. Flashback anyone? Download: http://www.quakeunity.com/file=295... Screenshots: http://www.quake.de/index.php?news...

#1 posted by Spirit [213.39.203.216] on 2010/01/09 12:25:48
Super annoying music. Why oh why. Did Q2 have this kind of stupid music?
Mapping wise it is nice. Also quite faithful.
Enemies are very annoying compared to Q2. Weapons weak. Walking is slow and water/swimming a bad joke.
Still it is fun to revisit this place.
Spirit
#2 posted by spy [92.46.18.184] on 2010/01/09 12:26:01
bild nicht gefunden!
Spy:
#3 posted by metlslime [98.248.107.212] on 2010/01/09 12:29:38
the original URLs in the news post wouldn't work unless you cut and pasted the URL. I replaced it with a link to the quake.de news item, now.
Metl
#4 posted by spy [92.46.18.184] on 2010/01/09 12:33:49
i see, tnank you and HNY
Tnank == Thank
#5 posted by spy [92.46.18.184] on 2010/01/09 12:35:43
#6 posted by Spirit [213.39.203.216] on 2010/01/09 13:33:53
Finished it after I got bored of it first. It's alright but suffers from modern shooter disease.
#7 posted by gb [89.27.222.8] on 2010/01/09 18:20:50
Quake 2 had no episodes.
#8 posted by spy [92.46.18.184] on 2010/01/09 18:53:52
Quake 2 had no episodes.
but it has Units.
@ Spirit
#9 posted by Baker [99.54.146.62] on 2010/01/10 13:04:50
Just for exploration's sake, I would like your personal definition of "modern shooter disease".
Or not just yours, but any of the func_msgboard long times.
I like very few modern games, but I can't quite explain why or where the train went off the tracks.
#10 posted by nitin [203.217.65.141] on 2010/01/10 13:17:20
too slow really, thats my main beef. There's an aim for realism, even in fantasy/sci-f modern games and the easiest way to achieve that, rather than tweak ai or weapon load or enemy design, is to slow the player down.
Look back to the earlier games and the focus on realism is less,, probably because the graphics werent advanced enough to replicate that anyway. Now with the ability to do photorealistic environments comes the empahsis on world realism too. Pity's its generally done the easy way by reducing speed.
I Think My Main Problems Are
#11 posted by Spirit [80.171.29.243] on 2010/01/10 15:04:02
too slow and too constrained (invisible walls, you must not jump on that crate, etc), weapons spreading everywhere, "realism" instead of arcade.
My Beef
#12 posted by ijed [190.20.87.215] on 2010/01/10 15:27:48
Is how console traditions pass back to the PC - like limiting the ability to look up.
#13 posted by gb [89.27.206.34] on 2010/01/10 18:37:40
I like that you can't run very fast in Q4 before you're Strogg. After that, it was fast enough for me.
I've grown to like Q4 a little better. The only beef that remains is the linearity, and I wish there were some more traps and a couple puzzles. (Oh, and the mandatory use of vehicles - those should have been optional).
These issues could be remedied by having new levels, in theory.
Some things about Q4 are pretty nifty, like the weapons' secondary fire modes which are often pretty fun to use (nailgun, railgun). The Strogg marines still look like '80s hair rockers without hair, but I can live with that since the models are pretty well done otherwise.
For a brainless candy-colored shooter full of crappy US marine antics (I still find soldiers shouting "Go! Go! Go!" rather unbelievably American), Q4 isn't so bad.
Will have to give this unit a try. ;-)
#14 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.113.195] on 2010/01/10 20:52:02
Modern Shooters are often far too 'story driven'. I wouldn't mind so much if the stories were any good, but to be honest, when all you want is to run around shooting baddies you don't need a ten minute scripted scene between each battle to justify it.
Mission objectives also tend to be rubbish these days, as their gameplay element generally consists of simply navigating to the correct point in a level and then watching a cut-scene/scripted sequence of the mission objective 'happening'. I wish somebody had the guts to bring back the good old colour-coded key 'puzzles'.
As has previously been mentioned, 'realism' is the catalyst for most of these problems. It's also the reason monsters and weapons are a lot less imaginative than they used to be.
And that's Modern Shooter Disease...
#15 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.113.195] on 2010/01/10 20:55:52
P.S. The screenshots of this unit look like somebody just ran the Q2 BSP's through a converter for Q4 and shoehorned in a few railings [why the fuck would the strogg have railings on the side of ledges anyway!? Did they fail their last health and safety inspection?]. If the developer can't be bothered putting any effort in, I can't be bothered downloading and playing it.
...
#16 posted by ijed [190.20.87.215] on 2010/01/10 21:01:27
Modern shooter disease is the games not being defined by nerds and geeks anymore.
Instead they're defined by a boardroom, filled with soft game executives with nerves of tissue paper.
Most film execs would laugh at these pretend 'power players' - all the bullshit generated at big launches is a form of overcompensation.
Basically, if they smell certain things, like creativity or uniqueness, then their arseholes clench shut so fast it's like an implosion. Project cancelled, onto the next one.
The ones that get through have five hundred opinions thrown in, whose only effect is to weaken the whole. If someone's not on the dev team then they shouldn't try to be.
But the dev team typically gets paid peanuts in comparison so keeps their collective mouth shut when retarded ideas filter in from on high.
Sigh. I try to be cynical, I really do. But I still care about the games I make.
#17 posted by stevenaaus [110.20.5.66] on 2010/01/11 08:18:34
Modern shooter disease is the games not being defined by nerds and geeks anymore.
I might add ".. doing it for fun". Did anyone miss the photo of Broussard that's up at http://www.3drealms.com/news/2009/...
OMG
Modern Shooter Disease.
#18 posted by Shambler [86.25.221.231] on 2010/01/11 10:35:17
In one easy summation: Too slow and on rails.
About "modern" Shooters
#19 posted by Ron [86.80.123.127] on 2010/01/11 11:11:49
At the moment I'm replaying FEAR.
I like it, it's dark and you can kill a lot of stuff. But the pursuit of realism is just daft at times. It is just not possible in games. Here you have this He-man type guy who killed over 200 enemies, but he can't move a fucking crate or barrel. Neither can he climb fences or do other things that I, with my limited murdering skills, can do in real life. Realism in games sucks because it's still very much unreal.
The games I truly love are Quake, Unreal, Half-Life and DooM. And there babies like Painkiller and Serious Sam, who brought the same gameplay with much better graphics. But of the first four I mentioned, I think Half Life has done it best. The sequels are very much like the original.
Quake 2 was decent, but has fuck all to do with Quake. DooM 3 was fun (sort of), but it didn't feel for one moment like DooM. Unreal II was one of the saddest releases ever, it should have been done by EA, that's how bad that was ;) !
At the moment I've stopped playing new games.
I'm sick of having to buy a new video card for every game that comes out. I don't understand it either, how come I can play Half-Life 2 very well, when other games stutter like hell ?
Are these gaming companies taking the piss or what ?
I'm very happy that some of you manage to give me something new to play every now and then. I think I must have played all the mods that there are by now. And I replay them too, sometimes. No, I don't think I'll ever get bored with playing Quake ...
#20 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/11 13:47:39
You guys ever get the feeling that you've fallen into a rip in time or something? :) Seriously, there are TONS of great games available today - shit, I barely have time to keep up with all the kick ass games I have on my 360.
Yep
#21 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/11 13:49:26
It's why we're all still here.
EEK !!!
#22 posted by Ron [86.80.123.127] on 2010/01/11 14:14:34
360 ! Console Alert !!!
#23 posted by gb [89.27.206.34] on 2010/01/11 15:43:03
Whine, whine, whine.
Crysis Warhead
#24 posted by RickyT23 [86.139.120.56] on 2010/01/11 16:59:59
I keep going back to this when I want a shooter fix. The GFX are AWESOME!!! And once you have reduced all of the GFX details to a point where you get >30fps, the gameplay is pretty good! It is "on a rail" in a leteral sense, but you do get a lot of freedom as to how to tackle each scenario, and the scripted sequences are good also.
(Note - detail levels are low(?), "mainstream", "gamer" and "enthusiast". Switching all of the details to "mainstream" but putting the sound and objects to gamer and the shaders to enthusiast looks very very cool, and runs nice on my mediocre PC)
Interesting debate though - I will be upgrading to an ATI Radeon 5850 so that I can play Aliens vs Predator in February :D (as long as it doesnt get axed) DirectX 11 dude - yes please!
This Quake4 episode - I havent tried it yet, but I will, but bare in mind that the Berzerker Quake2 mod kinda does a similar thing to the whole of Quake 2, via just being a mod.......
Will be interesting to see how this plays with Quake4 strogg though :D
Willem.
#25 posted by Shambler [86.25.221.231] on 2010/01/12 10:13:33
I like a lot of modern shooters too, for different reasons that I like older ones - variety, graphics, spectacle, themes, story.
Any modern shooter that combined those with exploration, solid control feel, and visceral action would be ace.
#26 posted by Willem [24.163.61.78] on 2010/01/12 11:57:07
"I like a lot of modern shooters too, for different reasons that I like older ones - variety, graphics, spectacle, themes, story."
Yeah, many of them are really good. I just don't understand the need to refer to modern shooters as having some sort of disease. It's ridiculous. Modern shooters are great!
"Any modern shooter that combined those with exploration, solid control feel, and visceral action would be ace."
I haven't played it but I've heard that STALKER is kind of like that. Large environment, open world-ish, but still a solid shooter.
#27 posted by Spirit [141.22.131.109] on 2010/01/12 15:32:28
and so buggy that I sold it a couple of days after buying. Last game I bought btw...
#28 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/12 15:42:53
Pretty sure it's patched by now. Guys are always talking about playing on it other boards that I visit.
Modern Shooter Disease...
#29 posted by mh [137.191.242.106] on 2010/01/12 18:20:24
...began with Half Life, then Counter Strike, then continued through further military/tactical ops/WW2 sims. Somewhere in there the sense of fun got lost, along with the wacky gonzoid OTT designand the sense that anything could be done even if it didn't thematically fit.
Pre-Half Life the sky was the limit, you could design anything, and as long as it was a blast it was cool. Post-Half Life things got serious. Everything had to accurately reflect the real world to some extent. Insane crap was no longer welcome.
And that's Modern Shooter Disease.
#30 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/12 18:31:32
Having actual settings is a good thing. Far Cry 2, Fallout 3, Bioshock - these are all games that are far better for having a cohesive environment.
Wolfenstein, Doom and Quake have cohesive themes too, BTW. You just happen to like them. :)
STALKER
#31 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.113.195] on 2010/01/12 20:22:40
I recently bought STALKER for £2 in the steam sale, having quite enjoyed what I played of it at a friend's house. It is quite a good game, but the 'exploration' factor is achieved by setting it in a huge sandbox world rather than by cunning level design that invites the player to look round dark corners or follow mysterious sounds.
As far as cohesive environments go, they're all well and good until you get half way through the game and find yourself bored shitless because the designers were far too constrained by 'cohesion' to add any surprises or interesting deviations. TBH, I got bored of Bioshock's environment before I even owned the full game! It was a great design, but it was their ONLY design.
Hang On
#32 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/12 20:33:23
Quake doesn't have a cohesive theme at all . . .
#33 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/12 20:56:51
Sure it does. Cthulhu mythos + army bases with slipgates. It's not a GREAT theme, but it does exist.
Spose So
#34 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/12 21:08:51
But it's very loose indeed - castles and knights, boxes of ammo everywhere, the player having shotguns an Ogre with a chainsaw and grenade launcher.
I'd say its alot less cohesive than most games out there.
I Think We're Saying Similar Things
#35 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/12 21:11:08
But:
Q: Why am I in this dungeon with a rocket launcher?
A: Because you came through a slip gate.
Isn't something most modern games would be able to get away with.
And:
Q: Why does that Ogre carry those weapons?
A: Because it's cool and works for the gameplay.
#36 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/12 21:11:30
Certainly it's looser but they definitely tried to have SOMETHING there that made sense, on some level.
Even
#37 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/12 21:12:38
Spawn / Tarbaby's would either be removed or handicapped so that someone higher up who played for a short span of minutes wouldn't die.
I Mean
#38 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/12 21:13:21
It all needs to be explained now.
#39 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/12 21:19:35
I would have removed the fucking tar babies myself had I been on the team. Worst enemy ever. :)
Hah
#40 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/12 21:34:00
you're not going to like tarbaby v2 ;)
Quake Has An Excellent Theme.
#41 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.113.195] on 2010/01/12 21:38:01
Your mistake appears to be in assuming that a 'theme' has to have something in common with 'reality'.
Not to get too personal or anything, but one of my gripes about RMQ is the health vials in medieval levels. To me, that's just trying to force a sense 'realism' on something that's better without.
Probably One Of The First They Made!
#42 posted by RickyT23 [86.27.86.36] on 2010/01/12 21:38:58
Just a blob really - not bad for experimental modelling techniques ;)
S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is a good game, very deep game infact, and once it gets going pretty enthralling. But it was buggy as hell out of the box. Weird really I dont understand. 1 thing - Mr SPIRIT - if you were to re-aquire a copy of stalker for very little money which it costs nowadays, install Oblivion Lost mod - basically this repairs the game. What I dont understand is why there are mosters in the packs includuded with the game which had been seemingly programmed out of the game just before release (!). Oblivion Lost mod (2.2 i think is the most recent one) also fixes the gameplay - gun accuracy, as a major part! It also puts "blow out" events back into the game (which AFAIK were meant to be in the vanilla version too but never made it at release.
Wierd. Very weird. Its like someone sabotaged the game just before its release. badly.
Is It
#43 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/12 21:43:45
Because the vials look bad (they do) or just that they're replacing in the first place?
Nehahra did the same (not saying that let's us copy whatever we want from them with auto-justification) - did you have the same opinion there?
In any case, complaints are usually useful. Not always in the way the complainer intended, but there you go :)
Msd
#44 posted by stevenaaus [110.20.20.212] on 2010/01/12 22:04:43
...began with Half Life
Hmmm...nice theory. So , by it's excellence , HL1 spawned an army of imitaters.
Ijed
#45 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.113.195] on 2010/01/12 23:04:48
The vials look absolutely fine and I have no problem with the notion of replacements where they're needed. My issue with them is that for me, a big part of Quake's theme/atmosphere is the mixture of tech, medieval and gothic. If you start differentiating completely between the three prevalent Quake themes then you lose the feeling of a vast multiverse that's been slowly bleeding together to become one inexplicable Lovecraftian nightmare.
Ok
#46 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/13 00:52:37
I get what you mean now - it's under discussion.
Ijed Is The Master Of Tarbabies.
#47 posted by grahf [76.104.21.196] on 2010/01/13 03:22:23
Heh, my love-hate relationship with the fuckers reached a whole new level after the 'Pain Maze' in warpc ;)
About the health powerups - I think having tech powerups in a medieval setting absolutely does break the cohesion, it's just that we're somewhat desensitized to it after 13 years. Text_fish's explanation for the stylistic blend is interesting - I'd always semi-unconsciously assumed that the stuff had been teleported there by your Marine superiors back on Earth - a leap of logic which doesn't make a lot of sense either.
I don't think it would damage the integrity of the Quake Universe to differentiate worldtypes with different powerup styles. If anything, I'd say go all the way and do it for ammo too, if possible. Given that the ogres carry grenades and sometimes nails, it's logical for them to be there. And come to think of it, what human would invent a fucking nail gun? That's obviously something the quake marine found on his otherworldly travels. And spinning floating guns? Yes, very realistic. Don't think about this stuff too hard folks, there's no point except fun.
Super Annoying Music?
#48 posted by iART [96.54.4.77] on 2010/01/13 04:00:22
i thought the soundtrack was the best thing about Q2.
stalker was great. stalker - call of pripyat was how the original should have been... had the publishers not had the upper hand.
i did enjoy quake 2 , but if you are going to remake it in Q4, then for christ's sakes add the atmosphere that it was lacking in the original.
IART!!
#49 posted by nitin [203.202.43.54] on 2010/01/13 04:03:54
first ziffon, now iart, next we will see elek return.
Re:nail Gun
#50 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.113.195] on 2010/01/13 11:01:14
Humans did invent nail guns, albeit not as weapons. Perhaps Earths forces were so depleted by inter-dimensional warfare that they resort to modifying domestic items for use as weapons. How likely is it that humans would equip modern day soldiers with huge axes, afterall?
Though to be honest, I came to the conclusion some time ago that most of the story of Quakes invasion of humankind played out long before we set foot in the slip-gate complex. The human forces have been scattered and defeated and any that remain will simply spend the rest of their lives jumping from one dismal realm to another, surviving merely for the sake of survival. Occasionally they may find themselves back in what was once human territory, but that is now as hostile to them as anywhere else so they just keep moving. There's no beginning, middle or end to this story and that's what I find so beguiling about it.
Qed
#51 posted by stevenaaus [110.20.55.48] on 2010/01/13 11:35:32
and perhaps that's the problem with modern games - there's nothing left to the imagination.
#52 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/13 13:46:51
Again, there's that misnomer. Modern games don't have a "problem". Modern games are fucking awesome!
#53 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/13 13:48:06
Tezt_Fish
That's kind of how I think of Quake. Like you're being dropped into an existing universe after most of the larger fighting has already subsided. Levels that you download are pockets within that universe - independent of the whole, but still tied in through common monsters and items.
#54 posted by gb [89.27.247.116] on 2010/01/13 15:19:43
How likely is it that humans would equip modern day soldiers with huge axes, afterall?
Very likely.
Modern-day Tomahawks designed by the late Peter LaGana included wood handles, a hatchet-like bit and a leather sheath and were used by select U.S. forces during the Vietnam war and are referred to as "Vietnam Tomahawks".
American Tomahawk Company's "VTAC" ("Vietnam Tactical Tomahawk") is in use by the US Army Stryker Brigade in Afghanistan, the 172nd SBCT Team based at Fort Wainwright, the 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division out of Fort Lewis, a Recon Platoon in the 2-183d CAV (116th IBCT)(OIF 2007-2008) and numerous other soldiers.[6][9] The VTAC was issued a National Stock Number(4210-01-518-7244) and classified as a “Class 9 rescue kit” as a result of a program called the Rapid Fielding Initiative; it is also included within every Stryker vehicle as the “Modular Entry Tool set”.[6][9] This design is enjoying something of a renaissance with US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan as a tool and in use in hand-to-hand combat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomah...
US forces were equipped with axes during world war II. I would guess the same goes for other nations' troops.
Why not? Multipurpose tool, can be used in hand to hand combat (countless historical examples), put one in every car.
My pioneer unit was having similar stuff in their vehicles. When you're unexpectedly up against zombified humans and other monstrosities, a soldier might just grab one of those.
I find that pretty understandable.
Quake's axe has a full metal handle and looks pretty tactical to me. It's not a tomahawk, and even if it isn't standard issue to every space marine, there are any number of scenarios in which Qguy could have acquired it, similar to Freeman's crowbar. That's how I see it. Perhaps he just grabbed half of the standard rescue kit before he left. Whatever.
Even crossbows have modern versions that are employed tactically.
You guys can be so tight-assed sometimes. Chainsaws are OK, yes?
I Stand Corrected!
#55 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.113.195] on 2010/01/13 17:25:11
Chainsaws are alright in theory, but I often find the noise a bit annoying and it's difficult to get the feeling of 'contact' correct.
Quake 2 For Quake 4
#56 posted by lizard [69.2.30.30] on 2010/01/13 18:21:04
I like this game so far. Playing as corporal and in the 3rd level,open the elevator door and you're going to be busy. These guys worked 4 years on this and it's free. Lets give some thanks. Thanks.
Ron post #9 I agree with you on the older games and I'm tired of having to upgrade everytime a new wave of games come out too. Lets ad rtcw and undying to that list. My thoughts are if they still made games like quake,half life,unreal etc and sold them for around $30 everyone would be rich. And please give us another Rune. Yes I'm on the list.
Willem can you give me the names of some of the tons of games you can play on a 3.0 GHz processor Nvidia Geforce 5700 128 mb memory and with a with a gig of pc memory or anyone else?
Shambler glad to see you pipe up once in a while. I remember your Quake reviews although you said you quit because you couldn't stand anymore quake. That hurt.
Lets face it not many shooters have themes. Half life and Unreal are a couple exceptions.
I think the Quake 2 music is annoying too but you can turn it off.
#57 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/13 18:52:04
"Willem can you give me the names of some of the tons of games you can play on a 3.0 GHz processor Nvidia Geforce 5700 128 mb memory and with a with a gig of pc memory or anyone else? "
Dude, please. If you're rocking an outdated PC, there's nothing I can do for you. Play old games.
#58 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/13 18:52:41
BTW, I was referring to consoles when I said there are tons of great games out there days. I don't game that much on my PC.
Willem
#59 posted by lizard [69.2.30.8] on 2010/01/13 21:32:48
Dude, please. If you're rocking an outdated PC, there's nothing I can do for you. Play old games.
Dude. We were talking about older games. Remember? This is a PC forum Dude
Q2Episode1 For Quake4
#60 posted by lizard [69.2.30.8] on 2010/01/13 21:35:59
I stand corrected on turning off the music. Probably can take the file out with a pk ripper.
#61 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/13 21:37:48
"Dude. We were talking about older games. Remember? This is a PC forum Dude"
No, we were talking about modern shooter disease, weren't we? Modern would imply new games.
Heh
#62 posted by Spirit [213.39.223.153] on 2010/01/13 21:57:17
Comparing PC gaming to console hints at a huge part of the problem actually.
Hmm
#63 posted by nonentity [79.72.72.28] on 2010/01/13 22:23:24
That the problem is based on an elitism surrounding PC gamers being unable to accept that a mass produced console can be a platform for beautiful, involving and highly enjoyable (both through gameplay and interesting challenge) games?
No
#64 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/13 22:29:02
The problem is that all who prefer playing on console are going to hell.
Well
#65 posted by nitin [203.217.65.141] on 2010/01/13 23:03:41
not all of us are rich enough or inclined to spend money upgrading our comp every 6 mths to play each new game.
Having said that, on my now 5+ yr old rig with 1.5 yr 9800gtx, I can play most things except GTAIV which ran like a dog.
Err,
#66 posted by megaman [188.109.37.160] on 2010/01/14 02:09:19
we're not seriously arguing whether there's a huge difference between console and pc games, are we?
And I agree, console shooters took a large part in spreading modern shooter disease.
Console Gaming
#67 posted by Jago [84.249.95.211] on 2010/01/14 22:05:10
There is no problem with console gaming per se. The problem are the drooling fuckwits telling everybody how playing FPS with a controller instead of a keyboard and mouse is supposedly not a handicap at all and that its actually better. You have a mental and/or physical disability, I get it, but not everybody does.
#68 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/14 22:08:36
It's not a handicap in the console environment where everyone is doing it - what's the difference? It's an even playing field and it works fine.
Sure, you can't compete against someone with a mouse/keyboard combination but since that isn't going to happen anytime soon - why the rage?
Hahahaha
#69 posted by necros [99.227.133.158] on 2010/01/14 22:08:56
wasn't there a shitstorm a little while back about that? some fps game was playable on both PC and xbox and console gamers were bitching because PC gamers had an edge.
#70 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/14 22:20:17
That would take a special kind of retardation to do that. I'm not saying that controllers are superior but they're perfectly fine when you're playing against other people who are also using controllers.
WIllem
#71 posted by Jago [84.249.95.211] on 2010/01/14 22:20:30
That's horrible logic, the fact that EVERYONE is handycapped is not a valid excuse. If I am a healthy person who wants to have some fun and compete, I am not going to strap myself into a wheelchair and take part in the special olympics.
#72 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/14 22:29:08
Eh, you're obviously locked into your mindset on this so there's no point in arguing it. Just know that millions of people find shooters on consoles to be fun so .. *shrug*
I Actually Have A Theory
#73 posted by Jago [84.249.95.211] on 2010/01/14 22:37:56
that the reason so many people enjoy FPS gaming on consoles is because they are utterly horrible players. At first, they had no choice, if they wanted to play multiplayer FPS, they had to do it on the PC, where people with ridiculous reflexes using keyboard, mouse and a fast rig repeatedly mopped the floor with them for months and years on end.
Over time, people realised that some FPS games also exist on consoles and they gave that a go and found it "fun". The reason they found it fun is because everyone is handicapped, artificially setting a lower barrier to one's top performance in a game. The bads still lose, but instead of getting raped 50 to -5 all day long, it's now 30 to 5 and they can feel good about themselves after getting a few lucky kills.
And
#74 posted by Jago [84.249.95.211] on 2010/01/14 22:39:44
I am not saying it's a bad thing. If someone enjoys console FPS gaming more than PC FPS gaming, by all means, let them have their fun! What I have a problem with is these people trying to come up with ridiculous justifications as to why think console FPS gaming is better.
#75 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/14 22:58:57
I think both have merit (PC and console FPS gaming). No need to get all angry about it - play whichever one you want.
#76 posted by Text_Fish [94.169.113.195] on 2010/01/14 23:25:43
I don't think I've ever met somebody who would attempt to claim that consoles are a better platform for FPS's, even if they happen to be a fan of goldeneye/halo/turok/whatever. They're just different.
I do think it's true that console FPS's have to be dumbed down skill-wise, not because the players are dumb but because the controllers are less capable. And yes, I do think that some of that dumbing down has crossed over to PC games as well which is unfortunate, but it's not really the fault of consoles or console gamers.
BUT THEY GO TO HELL
#77 posted by ijed [190.20.85.68] on 2010/01/15 02:10:49
I'll troll you one day Willem, see if I don't.
#78 posted by dfsp_spirit [85.183.147.130] on 2010/01/15 08:33:33
The problem with at least some of the boring shooters for PC is that they're lousy ports from console games. (That's obviously not the fault of console gamers, it's rather related to ignorant developers.)
The new Wolfenstein is the worst example I've seen so far. You can't even assign keys for the weapons it seems because the controller of the stupid console it was developed for doesn't have enough keys for that. :O I really regret I bought it.
All the other stuff you may need to add for the usual technicial situation (and audience?) on consoles (auto-regeneration of the player to fullhealth in secs, arrows telling you where to go, shimmering items so you can distinguish them from the background easier on low-res screens, respawning enemies, ...) were simply left in the game. Feels like you're playing a console game on some console emulator instead of playing a PC title. Even the design of the box says 'console game'. :x
Wolfenstein is not the only example though. Noticed that more and more 'modern' games tell you not to turn off the machine while saving? Guess why. :p
#79 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/15 14:02:40
"The new Wolfenstein is the worst example I've seen so far. You can't even assign keys for the weapons it seems because the controller of the stupid console it was developed for doesn't have enough keys for that. :O I really regret I bought it. "
Well, a bad game is a bad game - that's a platform agnostic problem.
"on consoles (auto-regeneration of the player to fullhealth in secs, arrows telling you where to go, shimmering items so you can distinguish them from the background easier on low-res screens, respawning enemies, ...)"
See, and I think a lot of that stuff was added because that's what players want.
For example, players didn't want the goofy floating and rotating guns/pickups anymore so developers laid them on the ground. Then they weren't visible enough, so they added some shimmer to the material. It's not really a console issue, it's a design issue.
That's also an issue with environments becoming much more dense with detail so individual items are harder to pick out with your eye. This works fine in games like Fallout3 where it fits the game design but in something like Gears of War you need that shimmer because you don't want to miss those grenades as you're passing through the area.
Personally, I'm all for HUD indicators that tell me where the next objective is. I don't have to go there right away but when I'm ready to move ahead, I don't have to run around looking for an area I haven't been to yet. Besides, most games give you a config option to shut that off if it really bothers you.
And auto-regeneration, while a point of contention for many shooter fans, is a good thing IMO. Fuck health packs. :) Anyone complaining that it makes games too easy needs to go to the next difficulty level.
Play Gears of War 2 on Insane and tell me how easy auto-regen makes it. :)
Yeah
#80 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/15 16:53:54
We added an auto-regen to RMQ and everybody seemed to like it, one of the few features that wasn't bitched and moaned about.
The way we did it may have been better (only on less than 25 health, damage bonus while active, screen tint also) but it is a genuine gameplay +
I'm thinking of a new gameplay mode which removes the ability to quicksave. Quicksave was only ever a developer function that got passed over into the regular game. The idea is to replace quicksave with resurrect artifacts (hello Nehahra) but just make this a mode that can be turned on by the player.
Being able to save the game constantly removes most of the challenge, oft-times resulting in abusively difficult gameplay becoming a standard.
These are design advances that get made as games in general progress - like Willem says, medkits become recharge.
HOW some of these features is implemented is terrible. In general I don't like health recharge or quicktime events in modern games because they're introduced in a lowest-common denominator way, the intentions of the game designer marginalized. Or just the designer not being very good at their job.
So:
#81 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/15 16:55:40
Quicktime events = good idea
Health regen = good idea
Implementation of the above in 90% of games = bad
But that's just my opinion.
#82 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/15 17:05:24
"HOW some of these features is implemented is terrible. In general I don't like health recharge or quicktime events in modern games because they're introduced in a lowest-common denominator way, the intentions of the game designer marginalized. Or just the designer not being very good at their job."
Can you give examples? Most of what I see is that you stop getting hit for a few seconds and your health recharges. Are there other implementations?
Not Off The Top Of My Head
#83 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/15 17:21:01
But generally I find that the recharge rates are aimed at someone with a low skill quota. Granted, skill settings should fix it.
Been a while since I played any console shooter now, probably the last was Halo a few years ago.
Other implementations should exist . . .
A Similar Health System
#84 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/15 17:25:41
Left4Dead - the revivial by team-mate, also mentioned in a Star Wars game over on the OtherPcGames thread.
L4D has an inverted health system (fitting the survival theme) of pills and adrenaline shots that give a temporary health boost.
It's not recharge, but if we call it 'non-Quake1 health system' with Quake1 being pretty much a standard then it makes more sense.
So we have a few different recognisable health mechanics - 'Halo recharge' for example.
Got A Vague
#85 posted by ijed [216.241.20.2] on 2010/01/15 17:26:34
Recollection of a vampire health recharge - killing enemies to recover your health. Been in a few games I think.
STALKER Does The Opposite! :D
#86 posted by RickyT23 [86.139.120.56] on 2010/01/15 17:42:38
Get shot once, escape to safety, slowly bleed to death :)
Requires different tactics all together, either plan your attack carefully so as not to get hit at all (hmm - realism much?), or make sure you have plenty of bandages to stop the bleeding. Make sure you have decent armour, or whatever.
Stalker IMO is a great game! "Realism survival horror" genre.
Another Thing
#87 posted by RickyT23 [86.139.120.56] on 2010/01/15 17:44:36
Atleast Crysis has a semi-believable explanation for how the players health can re-charge so easily. The suit idea has been used in many games, but in few I think it is implemented as well as in Crysis.
#88 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/15 18:07:47
"But generally I find that the recharge rates are aimed at someone with a low skill quota. Granted, skill settings should fix it."
It gets tricky. If you don't have health packs then the regen has to happen quickly enough that it's not boring for the player - i.e. they have to sit and hide for 30 seconds while their health recharges. It has to take a few seconds, max, or it won't work. IMO.
Well RMQ
#89 posted by ijed [190.20.119.250] on 2010/01/15 18:13:45
Tends to leave the player staring at a health pack until their health has risen to around 20 or so from whatever it was, before they grab it.
#90 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/15 18:25:03
What do you mean? You have to look at a health pack to regen?
Interrupted -
#91 posted by ijed [190.20.119.250] on 2010/01/15 18:46:26
No, what happens is it's 1 health per second when rising until it reaches 25. Whilst rising Rage is active, which causes the player to deal 125% damage.
But because it's relatively slow, players are occassionally faced with a health item that they don't want to pick up just yet.
It the flaw in the design, but so far doesn't seem a bad one.
Hmm
#92 posted by nonentity [79.72.11.15] on 2010/01/15 18:47:22
http://www.reuters.com/article/idU...
#93 posted by onetruepurple [89.75.203.25] on 2010/01/15 19:04:44
Whilst rising Rage is active, which causes the player to deal 125% damage.
150%...
Yes, That
#94 posted by ijed [190.20.119.250] on 2010/01/15 19:58:11
And the various rates are all skill dependant.
Q2Episode1 For Quake4 Problem
#95 posted by lizard [69.2.30.71] on 2010/01/15 21:40:52
I have a problem loading the map after installization2. bunk1.
Map Initialization
Map: bunk1
idRenderWorldLocal:: Init:From: maps/bunk1
...............Game Map Shutdown......................
.....................................
..................................
Error: couldn't load maps/bunk1
Anyone else have a similar problem or know how to fix it?
I sent an email to the address in the readme but haven't heard from them.
#96 posted by Spirit [213.39.214.161] on 2010/01/15 21:47:14
I am pretty sure that is supposed to be the ending. Maybe more maps will come later.
#97 posted by metlslime [173.11.92.50] on 2010/01/15 22:34:48
i agree with willem, the recharge rate is the wrong thing to tune for skill settings. It's not "harder" to wait in a dark corner for an extra 10 seconds.
Probably the best thing to tune is the amount of health that can be regained. For example, on easy, you recharge up to 50% health, on medium up to 25%, on hard up to 10%. And on nightmare you don't recharge at all. (Or slowly lose health at all times? That would be nice and evil.)
That's
#98 posted by ijed [190.20.96.137] on 2010/01/15 23:40:54
What we have, basically. At what low quantity of health does it start to recharge and the Rage effect begin.
It's always slow (1 per second) I thought this'd be too irritating, but like I say, it seems alright.
Inversion
#99 posted by Preach [94.169.109.218] on 2010/01/16 02:23:58
And on nightmare you don't recharge at all. (Or slowly lose health at all times? That would be nice and evil.)
Isn't that what they did in Doom 3? Although they equpped you straight off with that nonsensical cube weapon which gives you back health when you kill people with it. So the idea was as long as you killed 10 monsters a minute, you could keep your health topped up. Pretty sure it never dropped you below 25 either, but I didn't bother to play it for long, so I could be remembering wrong.
#100 posted by necros [99.227.133.158] on 2010/01/16 02:52:40
you must be thinking of another game. the soul cube gives you health back, but you never just loose health constantly.
Yeah
#101 posted by ijed [190.20.96.137] on 2010/01/16 03:12:24
Although I did like the artifact idea. At least something stuck from Q1.
The health lying around was alot less after gaining the cube.
Another health mechanic then.
#102 posted by metlslime [173.11.92.50] on 2010/01/16 03:18:47
you must be thinking of another game. the soul cube gives you health back, but you never just loose health constantly.
The "Sanguinoch" or whatever it was called from Zerstorer was like that, if you had monsters around it would suck their health, but if you were alone it would start draining yours instead, i think.
Q2Episode1 For Quake4 Problem - Thanks
#103 posted by lizard [69.2.30.26] on 2010/01/16 03:51:47
I am pretty sure that is supposed to be the ending. Maybe more maps will come later.
Ok thanks. I thought it was the whole game but now realize it was only episode 1
#104 posted by Spirit [213.39.187.229] on 2010/01/16 09:42:42
http://img.moronail.net/img/7/1/22...
Doom3
#105 posted by [88.70.243.26] on 2010/01/16 11:26:22
You do lose health on Nightmare. Can't remember if it counts down to 25 or 1, but that's the very reason you start with the Soul Cube.
I Just Checked
#106 posted by necros [99.227.133.158] on 2010/01/16 21:16:04
it counts down to 25. i never played on nightmare, i had no idea there was a different gameplay mechanic.
Health Regen Like In Halo
#107 posted by megaman [188.109.34.142] on 2010/01/17 15:40:03
essentially sets an upper limit on the rewards for player skill. Suddenly it stops being important how efficient you are, because all that matters is that you don't die.
So it helps players that have handicaps, like console controllers, and/or players that only play the game for the story; it makes it less interesting for players that are interested in interesting game mechanics instead.
Obviously, it's a shortcut for the devs, because testing becomes much easier.
What are the implications of games that feature specific places in the map where you recharge health/ammo?
#108 posted by Willem [24.163.61.78] on 2010/01/17 15:50:59
Why is pixel perfect shooting such a revered skill? That's about the only thing you can't do with a gamepad so I wonder if it's just a hold over of the "pc vs console" war. Why is that skill so important in order to be able to enjoy a game for PC players?
My $0.02
#109 posted by pjw [75.128.249.127] on 2010/01/17 18:02:52
It's not that it's "so important"; it's just another skill. But it's a skill that's had a lot of use and a lot of focus in gaming (especially PC gaming) for a long time. Accurate aim is linked to success in many games, bragging rights, and obviously penis size. It's the traditional tool of success in many shooters, especially old-school shooters, and...well...look where you're posting.
It's important because all skills are important, because skills are a big part of what most gaming is about. Games are partly (mostly?) about challenge, and learning and using skills is what helps to overcome challenges.
In an alternate universe, I could see us having the same conversation about movement controls:
Why is pixel perfect movement such a revered skill? With PCs, sure, you can move exactly where you wish, but with [arbitrary controller] you just move sort of where you want to, and that's close enough, and can be compensated for on the game design side, so why is it so important?
A Bit More
#110 posted by pjw [75.128.249.127] on 2010/01/17 18:10:48
Why is that skill so important in order to be able to enjoy a game for PC players?
Because if you've spent a lot of time using an old familiar tool that does a task (aiming) better than another tool, and then you try to use the new tool, you have to deal with the double whammy of working to learn the new tool while knowing full well that no matter how much effort you put into it, this tool will never work quite as well as your old one.
That tends to make people cranky.
Good Post
#111 posted by ijed [190.20.113.246] on 2010/01/17 18:10:59
#112 posted by Willem [24.163.61.78] on 2010/01/17 18:15:11
I guess where I take issue with it is where these things are used as vectors to attack those who dare to enjoy games on consoles. It's silly.
Notice Me Not Arguing.
#113 posted by pjw [75.128.249.127] on 2010/01/17 18:27:50
There's elitism and scorn on both sides to some extent (e.g. PC players are living in the past, etc.), but in my experience it's much more common to bash on console players as not being "real gamers" and that kind of shit.
I was heavily into NES/SNES, but the last console I bought was a PS2. I get tempted every now and then by some of the great games I see that are console-only...
#114 posted by gb [89.27.218.177] on 2010/01/17 19:24:30
OK, on topic -
I don't think this works.
I think it would have been better if the mapper put in the time to remake the levels from scratch, with Q4 textures, and just used the normal Q4 enemies. It would have needed a lot more playtesting - for example I couldn't jump up through the hole in the ground where the shotgun is because the brushwork is from Quake 2, but the q4 guy can't jump that high. Stuff like that should be avoided. The running speed is too low for these relatively open maps.
It would need a complete rebalancing with the new enemies, ie completely new item placement.
The water doesn't look right.
When And Where Did We Start Talking About Aim?
#115 posted by megaman [188.109.33.232] on 2010/01/17 19:30:50
I certainly wasn't.
Console analogue controllers don't allow you to make fast rotations, and are less precise (for budget reasons? compare the feel of a typical analogue stick with something like a flightstick http://www.chproducts.com/retail/j... is it only the size that causes this?). The first is always an issue for fps games, although it could be argued that it increases realism (but I can turn my head pretty fast...!), the latter only is if the game is designed in a way that pixel-perfect aim gives you an advantage. Most games do so.
It's really bad when console games limit your options, like limiting your ability to look up/down or allowing strafing only under certain conditions. Even if it works fine 90% of the time, those are the games that i feel really limited in. Metroid Prime was like this... half-way through the game i still miss jumps because I jump late-I can't look down when jumping to see where on the ledge my 'feet' are.
The regeneration discussion is way more interesting imho ;-)
Gb
#116 posted by RickyT23 [86.27.6.171] on 2010/01/17 21:28:35
Have you tried Berzerker Q2?
#117 posted by gb [89.27.229.197] on 2010/01/18 15:10:33
tbh I don't care much for "graphical updates" Ricky :)
I might.
It Doesnt Just Change The Graphics To
#118 posted by RickyT23 [217.42.132.38] on 2010/01/18 15:29:46
Parralax mapped beauty, it also adds a few smart features such as wierd little bots which come and dispose of the bodies of dead foes, stuff like that :)
This post was flagged as spam.
#119 posted by a spammer [196.207.198.211] on 2010/02/10 16:45:56

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