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Posted by Tronyn [24.78.41.15] on 2009/01/09 12:25:24

This thread may be gratuitous - and I take no offense if it disappears. But regardless here's my concept:
I actually basically decided to finish all of my "stuck" maps. Part of that was NSOE, part of that was Arcanum, part of that was Roman Wilderness, but even with (or without) that, a big part was the idea of just doing it.
But, I don't give a fuck about that. It's all about doing THAT, whatever that may be - feel free to question me - in the moment.
First, inspirational:
Have you ever had a map (or episode) that was 2/3 or 3/4 done - say, soul of evil? Anyway, that could suck... I don't even know how people like tyrann (ye gods) or elek (I never denied that moby had talent.. nor did I ever deny that he was a dick)
I'm actually (if you can believe it) a bad person to start a thread with this subject,because I actually believe I will (somehow, with enough vis hours) get 75% of my unfinished Q11SP architecture/maps out there in some form that, at least, aguirRe's engines will... tolerate.

Lol
#1 posted by Tronyn [24.78.41.15] on 2009/01/09 12:28:03
k I admit it
I may have had something to say, in a thousand years... but not the way I currently phrased it, nor the way I went for it
anyway removing this is a favour. And that guy knows that - and knows what he is, for even asking it, regardless.
Weird
#2 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.18.236] on 2009/01/09 12:52:30
but beautiful
Err
#3 posted by nitin [124.168.27.36] on 2009/01/09 13:22:09
what?
Tronyn
#4 posted by spy [92.47.244.187] on 2009/01/09 13:22:38
i'd like to look at romanian wilderness scraps:
#5 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2009/01/09 15:29:36
I have a few scraps sitting around. It's funny how you get an idea, start pounding away, get a few rooms done and then suddenly and without warning your interest and drive sort of ... evaporate. So you put the map aside planning to return to it one day. But often times that day never comes.
Rewind...
#6 posted by Shambler [82.47.201.98] on 2009/01/09 19:31:32
...and rephrase, selecta!!
Are You Asking
#7 posted by necros [99.227.108.217] on 2009/01/09 19:34:48
about how we feel about finishing half-finished maps? or why we abandon those maps in the first place?
That Arcanum Map I Sent You,
#8 posted by HeadThump [4.136.90.25] on 2009/01/09 19:44:55
Big Time Stuck.
Hmm
#9 posted by nonentity [87.194.146.225] on 2009/01/09 21:34:16
Surely the maps aren't truly 'abandonned' in a lot of these cases, but the ideas re-thought and intergrated in later works. Scraps are merely the equivalent of a sketch book...
I Don't Like...
#10 posted by JPL [82.234.167.238] on 2009/01/09 22:06:12
.. to abandon something started. so no scrap left on the road for me ;)
#11 posted by M. [90.156.126.189] on 2009/01/09 23:48:48
The SHIFT + DEL method is best for that kind of thinking ;)
Re: Headthump
#12 posted by Tronyn [24.78.41.15] on 2009/01/09 23:55:39
heh I was actually about to email you asking about that map
I meant stuck as in, little or no progress for, say, five years. Lol. I VOWED not to start anything new, because this was my mapping pattern:
1) build something large, cool, and difficult to finish.
2) bah, this is boring.
3) repeat #1.
#13 posted by Tronyn [24.78.41.15] on 2009/01/10 00:04:23
I'm basically wanting to know about all the maps that I saw screenshots of a damn long time ago, that never came out - one example, is Kell's weird metal/arabian palace thing with the purple skybox. However I do think Roman Wilderness probably takes "most epic lag" - it's like the DNF of Q1SP.
Well
#14 posted by RickyT23 [82.20.37.149] on 2009/01/10 01:27:48
Im sick to death of my bloody map, but I'm just gonna bang it out and start-a-new.
If it suck it sucks. If anyone ever wants a mapsource btw then thats fine!
But I just think that if a map is 95% done then get it into alpha, and just get it working and release it, and move on. But hey - er, I dunno, I was gonna finish with something then but its gone....
One Solution
#15 posted by Tronyn [24.78.41.15] on 2009/01/10 02:34:01
one solution that may be interesting, is what we did with OUM
Apollo had left the project, and left a map that was 80% done, oum2 (needed gameplay tweaks, bug fixes, and a finale area). I meanwhile was sick of my map (the egyptian one). Neither was going anywhere; Tyrann (I think) had been assigned to finish Apollo's map and (quite rightly) found the meticulous bug fixing annoying. The solution was, we swapped maps. I took oum2, Tyrann took toum - and I got the better end of the deal here. Incidentally, we both got to build a boss arena in a style we hadn't been working in before (ikbase for me for oum2's finale, egyptian tomb for tyrann's toum finale).
If you finish what you start immediately, good for you. I've had maps sitting around 90% done since 2003, and only in the last couple years (thanks PM for mod and inspiration) have I had the will do all the boring, problematic work (and endless compilation) required to release them. I'm curious as to how many other mappers have the same problem - maps that are 75% or more done, that have sat around for years. I really think it's worth finishing them. Tyrann's idbase map is a good example.
Btw
#16 posted by Tronyn [24.78.41.15] on 2009/01/10 02:37:28
btw Necros I did actually do some work on the Unforgiven scraps you left. At one point Mike Woodham even had a look (he is the solution to this problem! We are like a fishtank, and he's (no insult intended lol) the shark, that eats corpses and converts them into useable energy).
Eventually though I decided that I was - yet AGAIN - building a new map, new architecture, etc - instead of finishing stuck maps (nsoe, arcanum, etc). So I quit on principle.
#17 posted by MadFox [84.26.168.11] on 2009/01/10 03:15:43
I mapped a year to get a greek map untill it gave me more than 5 days vising.
I started from scratch and now I have a solid map that need 9 houres vising.
Still two homs kill my interest to release it.
It means working again on a wellknown course that can end up desperately repairing, not the same amazed playing with brushes as it started.
But the same urg to finish it can also create an amusing map.
Agree
#18 posted by ijed [190.20.101.201] on 2009/01/10 15:43:41
When stuck; collaborate.
I Mean
#19 posted by ijed [190.20.101.201] on 2009/01/10 15:47:00
Someone else looking at your map with fresh eyes won't be in the same mental cul-de-sac you've painted yourself into. The add a few brushes, mess with some stuff and when the map comes back all the new possibilities will jump out at you.
Tronyn, sorry about the failed Wilderness attempt. Now I'm embroiled in this RQ thing and I find myself collaberating with myself a fair bit 8 maps in progress, 1 finished :P
#20 posted by onetruepurple [83.30.41.79] on 2009/01/10 16:18:54
I find myself collaborating with myself a fair bit
I get this visual image of ijed mapping drunk/in his sleep, only to wake up later, open the editor and think "I don't remember making this!"
Or Just Sat In A Dark Room
#21 posted by RickyT23 [82.20.37.149] on 2009/01/10 16:56:47
with empty coffee cups dotted around a computer, gesticulating wildly, frowning and tlking to himself..... :P
My Mapping Mirror
#22 posted by ijed [190.20.101.201] on 2009/01/10 17:19:13
Comes in handy.
Mind you, I find myself thinking "Which idiot made this leaky crap?" A fair bit.
Hmm
#23 posted by nonentity [87.194.146.225] on 2009/01/10 19:28:33
I like working on stuff I'm stuck on intoxicated. You have to make sure you save a new file version and spend time fixing all the technical errors once sober, but it can be a surprisingly good way of coming up with new ideas or a solution to a problem...
Mapping Requiem
#24 posted by MadFox [84.26.168.11] on 2009/01/10 22:28:00
16 months to develope the map
3 seconds to embarres the crap
3 months from scratch and retreat
19 nervous break on 2 new heaps
this wheel has finaly got me round
kill my cpu after that homs I found
Uhm
#25 posted by MadFox [84.26.168.11] on 2009/01/11 07:46:14
Now I have myself a good computer, comparing to the vis session with the Kona map I found myself thinking.
Ten years ago a mapped with Thread, I had no internet, and didn't worry to much if I had to wait for eight houres vising. Sometimes the map leaked, but most times I had no homs because the compilers were more rough in breaking the integers.
Now I have a better computer , still make my maps, maybe a bit larger, but the time I find myself eight to ten houres vising is almost the same as ten years ago. So I guess I making no progress, just racing against a machine.
Vis Time
#26 posted by than [121.80.152.135] on 2009/01/12 02:43:38
don't know what your brushwork is like, but tidy brushwork can make a big difference. However, I suspect that in your case it might take a long time to vis because the areas in your maps tend to be large.
My latest map is 8500 odd brushes, but it only take 6 minutes to compile everything. I suspect it is mostly because the areas are not particularly huge, but also because the brushwork is quite clean.
I wonder how long Marcher or masque took to compile. I think Tyrann's still unreleased base map was taking him around 2 weeks to fully compile or something crazy like that.
Hm
#27 posted by ijed [190.20.123.105] on 2009/01/12 03:51:12
Alot of the spaces in warp had the classic flaw of wide open areas - they should have been shrank so the detail wasn't so lonely.
The biggest area I think was maybe half the size of Marcher's open canyon / fortress frontage (warpd) but I didn't really suffer any slowdown on compile. Less than half a day, I think.
The low detail definately helped, but I think that the vis-blocking was the big factor. That same level in warpd originally looked alot more interesting because there were arched windows everywhere, until I saw the projected vistime, that is.
#28 posted by Willem [71.70.208.255] on 2009/01/12 11:23:43
Yeah, one of the biggest advancements in Quake2 was the concept of the detail brush. Taking small detail brushes out of the VIS equation helped SO much. Of course we ate all that time again on the radiosity lighting but what-ev-ah!
Quake 1 Version:
#29 posted by RickyT23 [81.157.18.236] on 2009/01/12 12:37:31
Use func_illusionaries for details of any kind of complexity. If the details are "out-of-the-way" then put a simple clip brush over them to stop monsters and players from walking through them. If they have to provide cover then use another model as a func_wall and use a skip tool to make it invisible.
The only problem is that after you put a load of these in you can hit the "efrags" limit, and you get annoying messages on loading the map like "too many efrags" and some of them will dissappear some/all of the time.
But thats only if you use fucking loads of them, and they tend to be made up of spread out brushes. The further apart the components of the func_illusionary are, the more likely they are to cause the efrags bug.
Stuck
#30 posted by gb [89.27.230.158] on 2009/01/12 13:39:17
I don't map very long, but I have a couple maps that I just abandoned. Most notably the qexpo map. Sielwolf, negke and ijed, iirc, tested it and basically found it acceptable - but somehow I can't be arsed to sit down with it. It's Quoth, with relatively hard combat (Trinca: "Impossible") and it's a fun doom-style blast, but not more. It uses some hackish stuff with info_notnulls etc. and that's just a horror. I'd code a proper switchable teleporter and marshlight for example, but obviously I can't. Also, after activating that angled ammobox function, most items fell out of the map, and replacing them all is apparently non-trivial. I can't go back to the old way easily, because I already replaced a large amount... not always successfully...
and then I just got pissed. :)
#31 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2009/01/12 15:07:15
"Use func_illusionaries for details of any kind of complexity. If the details are "out-of-the-way" then put a simple clip brush over them to stop monsters and players from walking through them. If they have to provide cover then use another model as a func_wall and use a skip tool to make it invisible. "
The trouble is that func_'s don't cast shadows and you can only have a certain number of them in a map. The detail brushes were way handier.
Well
#32 posted by ijed [190.20.70.86] on 2009/01/13 01:21:15
The solution is to put a simplified normal brush inside your func'd complex geometry that casts the shadows.
So an organic/bulbous pillar would have a jacket making the organic effect but a simple cylinder inside to cast the shadow.
Not perfect, but I gauruntee most people wouldn't notice.
Yus
#33 posted by [Kona] [118.92.181.198] on 2009/01/13 04:15:26
madfox, what kona map? anyways yeah i'm surprised that quake vis times, 13 years on from the crapass computers we used to use, are still huge. 2 weeks vistime? that would have been like 6 months back in 1996. surely these levels aren't THAT much bigger now? maybe we need to stop pushing the boundaries on map size all the time, if its meaning we're not completing it?
oh back to topic, i want to see all your almost finished mappage please tronyn :D
i never really had unfinished map problems, i basically released everything i made, apart from 5 or 6 maps with just 2/3 rooms. oh and a halflife episode which i got 4 maps into. but hl is horse piss. you've just got to be tough on yourself and stick to those 80-90% complete maps... do one map at a time and don't leave it until it's finished. and for the love of god don't start a new map lol
#34 posted by MadFox [84.26.168.11] on 2009/01/15 22:33:36
Kona - I was reffering to a map post#8007 in mapping help of the vis test fom Spirit.
He used a map called Koohoo, so my scraggy mind made it a kona map.
Le Sigh...
#35 posted by grahf [76.104.21.196] on 2009/01/17 07:29:36
I've got something like 10-15000 brushes of unfinished work that's accumulated over the years, spread across several maps of densely occluded medieval city architecture. The oldest parts are at least nine years old, there were screenshots on the old Pipeline, and I may have shown a few parts on #terrafusion at one point or another. I map slow, real slow.
Will it ever be finished? Maybe someday, I honestly haven't laid a brush in months, it's gotten so complex that my brain hurts every time I look at it. I'm not sure what exactly the point of this thread is, but inspiration is good, I'll grant that.
...
#36 posted by PuLSaR [91.203.96.42] on 2009/01/18 14:46:50
Unfinished maps appear when you (or anyone of us) plan to make a giant map. I think small or medium maps almost never stay unfinished cuz they cause less problems and do not take that much time to bore you. But there are some people who make mostly (only) large maps. Therefore they always have a lot of unfinished projects. As for me, my arcanum map was started in the mid 2004
Broken Roads
#37 posted by MadFox [84.26.168.11] on 2009/01/19 12:57:02
The oppertunity of making a map more interesting by adding parts and sections is a chance the game gets more exciting.
Bad part is the enhancement can give hard compiling time and errors.
The hardest part to me is keeping in mind that the world I'm creating is unique and becomes a part of my own investement, a place that really excists for me. The time of construckting can make it a ruined proof of my patience, but it also keeps me on my toes for accomplishing it.
And that has brought me on many deadend strees, with a leak here and a hom there, and my scraggy stubborness to complete what I have started.
Well
#38 posted by Nynort [24.78.143.88] on 2009/01/23 22:22:44
I guess not that many people have stuck maps - I'm surprised, I suspected that plenty of mappers had quite a few 90% maps that had been sitting around for years. I do, but they are being finished.
Masque actually took under a week to compile; if you can believe it I could have cut the fullvis time to about two days, if I was willing to sacrifice the rocketlauncher window. But I figured whatever, I want that sense of vertical progress. Masque was very neat and tidy, in contrast the NSOE maps were very messy (they had to be, there was no way around it with all that manual brushwork for rocks and terrain) - thus the two worst offenders, nsoe3 and nsoe6, both topped 300 hours for fullvis.
Before I just make another thread, I want to know if this is a good idea: obsessive themes. I say this because I kind of assumed that people would be able to relate to stuck maps, but most people are smarter/more reasonable/productive in that case. But anyway, my idea (maybe I could just change the subject of this thread) is a discussion of themes that as a mapper (or even a visual artist, writer, musician, etc) you keep returning to. My first example in my own case, is Soul Of Evil - I couldn't leave that theme alone, apparently.
Boats And Zerstörer
#39 posted by HeadThump [4.136.90.48] on 2009/01/23 22:35:06
During Christmas holidays, I visited some family. My nephew is a hard core dice and character sheets type of roll play gamer. One of his paper bound modules had a very nicely detailed schemata with a lot of game play ideas for a haunted pirate ship. I grabbed a dozen sheets of paper and spent the next few hours copying the schemata and noting those ideas that interest me.
I don't think I am through with either boats or Zerstörer as far future mapping is concerned.
#40 posted by [Kona] [210.246.24.237] on 2009/01/31 02:10:39
Yeah I keep returning to metal, I love it and still aren't sick of it - not until the ultimate metal map has been made!
Metal
#41 posted by necros [99.227.108.217] on 2009/01/31 04:21:52
(and runic) are, to me anyway, one of the best texture sets ever. it's incredibly versatile and can be draped over almost any kind of brushwork.
Metal
#42 posted by HeadThump [4.136.90.92] on 2009/01/31 04:40:01
is also such an evocative concept. I've often imagined the Netherworld extended to Quake 2 lengths where the Strogg are essentially replaced by an alien race similar to the Githyanki from the Fiend's Folio of the old AD&D rules.
#43 posted by Trinca [89.180.50.83] on 2009/01/31 16:06:14
the only map i had stuck i delete it!!!
because was to old and to noobish... was only 500 brushes, no big deal... 500 brushes is 2 hours of mapping is these days.
Metal
#44 posted by ijed [190.20.120.132] on 2009/01/31 17:05:55
Is a bastard.
With good points.
I have five metal betas.
Down You Go
#45 posted by HeadThump [4.136.90.157] on 2009/01/31 18:23:36
questions, you can thank spy.

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