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Posted by Tigger-oN [202.134.241.213] on 2010/01/21 11:35:50

Ahhh... maps! A number of great maps in this update. The Dreadful Place was ShadoW's entry in the recent NoGhost Map Comp and was a fine submission. Return to the Cistern is Tabuns re-make of Quakes DM5 and Tech Edge is a map full of detail - and plays well too.
* The Dreadful Place by ShadoW - DM/TeamDM 4 - 8 players
* Return to the Cistern by Tabun - DM/TeamDM 4 - 8 players
* Tech Edge by fKd - DM 3-5 player
* Dark Reign by id Software - DM/Tourney/CPMA 2-6 player
* Ciudad de Torres by Guille - DM/TeamDM 8 - 16 players
30 second videos and 360 degree panoramas for all are available.
On a side note, I have very little details about the id Software map, Dark Reign. It appears to me to be a 'work in progress' that has somehow made its way online. If anyone has any more details to its origin, let me know so I can include the information as a note on the review.
..::LvL - http://lvlworld.com/

#1 posted by metlslime [98.248.107.212] on 2010/01/21 11:43:28
That DM6 remake looks pretty nice.
Also...
#2 posted by metlslime [98.248.107.212] on 2010/01/21 11:43:56
is that one map really by id Software? THE id Software?
Pointless
#3 posted by Baker [99.54.146.62] on 2010/01/27 02:08:24
I'd take a crappy Quake 1 single player map over a nice looking sterile DM3 map 365/24/7.
What are you supposed to do with these maps?
Yeah this is a little sarcastic, but deathmatch against bots is mighty lame.
Yep
#4 posted by pjw [75.128.249.127] on 2010/01/27 04:00:52
I too, cannot imagine anyone enjoying something that I myself don't enjoy.
Can we be sarcastic asshole buddies?
Well...not "asshole buddies"...not like that; I'm just looking for someone to threadshit with.
Single Player Isn't Everything
#5 posted by Baker [99.54.146.62] on 2010/01/27 10:25:21
But it's so damn close.
That's why I've been trying to push for enhanced Quake 1 functionality (a Half-Life like map format that allows more color), rotation and such.
These kinds of mappers could be using their talents to make something other than "look at my screen shot" maps that aren't actually going to be played by anyone.
It's a resource allocation problem. Seriously. You can make wonderful looking maps in Q3, but you can't do single player.
I find it ironic the whole gaming industry doesn't seem to understand the idea of user created single player levels.
#6 posted by Spirit [213.39.146.225] on 2010/01/27 10:33:40
You are forgetting that it is much easier to make a "nice to look at" map than to make a good singleplayer experience. Also I think that it is not uncommon for the remaining q3 mappers to just love building the architecture and looks and not care about much else.
The Root Of The Problem
#7 posted by sock [78.131.32.151] on 2010/01/27 12:05:41
is the compiler tools. Why doesn't the tools understand detail brushwork or cope with properly lit models? I don't want to build boxy maps or wait 1 month to compile something that could take 5mins with Q3 tools. I want to build complex shapes, spice up locations with models, add terrain and plants.
Even thou Q1 has an awesome script language, many different engine flavours, high res texture support and many other cool features, is does not matter because the core compiler tools are dumb. Why would anyone new to the Q1 scene spend days or weeks waiting for a map to compile!?!
Detail Brushes
#8 posted by ijed [190.20.97.8] on 2010/01/27 12:19:27
I want.
Model lighting would be good as well.
Hmmmm
#9 posted by fKd [219.89.206.18] on 2010/01/27 22:31:37
brutal reception here....
"These kinds of mappers could be using their talents to make something other than "look at my screen shot" maps that aren't actually going to be played by anyone."
yeah... thanks bud
"I find it ironic the whole gaming industry doesn't seem to understand the idea of user created single player levels."
retarded statement is retarded...
#10 posted by Willem [24.199.192.130] on 2010/01/27 22:41:05
Good opener, I see great things for you here.
#11 posted by necros [99.227.131.204] on 2010/01/27 23:03:47
brutal reception here....
no, it's just baker. he drops in from time to time to cover us in his vitriol.
I'm Not Critiquing The Maps
#12 posted by Baker [99.54.146.62] on 2010/01/27 23:41:24
I'm critiquing the idea of the maps.
Quake 3 has far better mapping tools than the game is actually fun to play.
My point is that talent does exist to be used and to create and the outlet of sterile Q3 DM maps is a waste of that talent, generally.
If Quake 3 had single player, some of you could make some terrific single player episodes that people would really enjoy playing.
But Quake 3 doesn't have single player and these maps are architecturally beautiful -- and for the most part -- for the purpose of looking at the screen shots.
It may not be popular to say, but it's true. It is not meant to be taken personally but more of a general philosophical statement.
Ugg
#13 posted by fKd [219.89.206.18] on 2010/01/28 00:13:43
sorry man, but you seem like you have no idea at all... i was going to go into detail as to why most of what you are saying is retarded... but whats the point?
carry on
#14 posted by metlslime [173.11.92.50] on 2010/01/28 00:53:01
baker, are you saying these maps have little multiplayer value (i.e. layout sucks, bad item placement, etc.) or are you saying that there is no Q3 player base so nobody will ever play them?
I'm pretty sure some of the recent q3 maps are fun to play, whether there is anyone to play them with is debatable, but if the art and design are good enough, I personally enjoy fighting bots for 15 minutes while I appreciate the layout, brushwork, texturing, lighting, etc.
#15 posted by necros [99.227.131.204] on 2010/01/28 00:55:43
but it's true
except it's not. (hey look, i can assert things too!)
#16 posted by Willem [24.163.61.78] on 2010/01/28 01:08:36
"sorry man, but you seem like you have no idea at all... i was going to go into detail as to why most of what you are saying is retarded... but whats the point? "
It would be nice to get your opinion on the matter once you're done huffing and gnashing your teeth. You clearly feel that he's wrong, please express why.
#17 posted by fKd [219.89.206.18] on 2010/01/28 01:40:48
sorry, did not mean to come off as being mad etc... but ok, i'll give it a shot...
"Quake 3 has far better mapping tools than the game is actually fun to play."
subjective, i and and lot of others strongly disagree about the gameplay, but the tools for idtech3 which have had lots of development through great peeps like yadar etc are amazing, i agree with you there.
"My point is that talent does exist to be used and to create and the outlet of sterile Q3 DM maps is a waste of that talent, generally."
thats just offensive... or am i reading that wrong?
"If Quake 3 had single player, some of you could make some terrific single player episodes that people would really enjoy playing."
with quake live and the old school community still going strong i dont understand this statement. quake 3 is a multiplayer game... thats the point of it. i find heaps of maps fun to play, both with bots, but especially with humans. i would hope ppl get some kind of enjoyment from playing my maps as well..
not liking the fact its not singleplayer again is just your preference... why even comment on a game you clearly just plain dont like?
or something...
[/gnashing]
#18 posted by pjw [75.128.249.127] on 2010/01/28 03:09:01
My point is that talent does exist to be used and to create and the outlet of sterile Q3 DM maps is a waste of that talent, generally.
Some people (metl, fKd) have already touched on this, but there are two apparently obvious things that you seem to be missing.
1) There are a lot of people who enjoy MP in general. There are also some people who enjoy playing MP with bots. Those people are getting enjoyment from these maps, and the authors are happy to be feeding that enjoyment. Hardly a "waste".
2) I look upon map design as an art form (among other things), and I would be equally irritated if you were to comment on, say, a Rembrandt with "what a waste; that talent and time could have been used to create something that people could interact with--where's the utility?!"
Nothing says that you have to like these creations, but to dismiss them as wasted effort via an offhand comment about "maps that aren't actually going to be played by anyone" is really ignorant.
Until
#19 posted by ijed [190.20.102.101] on 2010/01/28 03:29:21
L4D2 came out three of us in the office played Q3 every day, was always nice to run around inside good maps for visual or gameplay merits.
They didn't buy L4D, so play chess now instead.
It's Just My Opinion
#20 posted by Baker [99.54.146.62] on 2010/01/28 06:32:42
It's just my opinion. Feel free to disagree. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong.
I have my own guiding principles and who knows maybe I shouldn't have posted my opinion. Sometimes I click submit when I shouldn't; sometimes I don't click submit when I should.
And life goes on ...
@metlslime
I'm just saying that Q3 has a massive number of beautiful DM maps that adding some pebbles to the heap in general seems unnecessary.
I was struck lately by loading up the Simpson's Q3 map and thinking how much work it was to make, how beautiful it was and how really the only thing I did with it was walk around it a few minutes out of curiosity and then exit.
An Apology
#21 posted by Baker [99.54.146.62] on 2010/01/28 06:56:31
I wasn't looking to offend the author's of the maps. I loaded up Sock's map lately in DarkPlaces (which supports Q3 maps) and was trying to imagine it with single player.
I've had the growing feeling of something that is missing which is the single player equivalent of Nexuiz or Open Arena.
I am, ironically, biased against multiplayer as sort of entry level mapping and a complain that you sometimes hear in various pockets of the internet is that there are hordes of free multiplayer games (Nexuiz, Open Arena, Sauerbraten, Enemy Territory) and really nothing that is a basic high quality single player equivalent (Sauerbraten can't qualify; the licensing essentially makes it solely an engine).
Sometimes I see Q3 maps that look like they'd could be great single player fodder and I sort of sigh thinking the main purpose is to shoot Sarge and Major a few more times.
I wasn't looking to offend any of the authors of the maps; the first post comments were -- perhaps unwisely --- posted on a whim when I looked at the themes, thought about how great they looked and pondered the purpose.
Count Me As +1
#22 posted by nitin [203.202.43.54] on 2010/01/28 07:05:27
for playing maps with bots.
And fkd's map is damn nice both visually and gameplay wise.
Completeness ..
#23 posted by Baker [99.54.146.62] on 2010/01/28 07:08:10
I might as well say I've played an interesting single player Q3 map for DarkPlaces:
http://forums.inside3d.com/viewtop...
And yes, I was wrong to rant here. Somewhere else would have been more appropriate than to offend the authors of hard-made map releases.
My apologies.
Baker
#24 posted by quakis [95.148.243.226] on 2010/01/28 15:03:38
I can definitely see where you were getting at and I've even had similar thoughts about DM maps in general. I'd see these really nice looking maps and imagine how they would play if they were a singleplayer experience.
But that's only because I don't play multiplayer games - besides a small bit of TF2 here and there; which I get sick of quickly - so I feel like I'm missing out because I don't enjoy them much (mostly because I'm awful at them).
Baker
#25 posted by pjw [75.128.249.127] on 2010/01/29 03:13:20
I'm impressed. <--Not sarcasm. :)
I don't see apologies on the internet very often. I think that's because when someone is not face to face with another human being, it's easier to just shrug and say "whatever".
I, in turn, am sorry if I read more into your comments than you really meant or intended.
I thought this was well-put:
a complaint that you sometimes hear in various pockets of the internet is that there are hordes of free multiplayer games...and really nothing that is a basic high quality single player equivalent
There are single-player games out there that you can build for, but most I've seen are either (a) too dated for many people to appreciate (b) handicapped by horrible tools, or (c) too complex, and require too much work and/or too much of a learning curve to get started.
I'm hopelessly addicted to building tracks for Trackmania, which is an excellent arcade-y racing game with a simple modular track editor (and a free version, if you're curious).
While the Trackmania people (Nadeo) are supposedly working on both an FPS and an RPG, I haven't seen any details. I'm hoping that they take their simple-but-deep modular approach to their FPS--it could be amazing, if they do.
Sp And The Quake 1 Engine..?
#26 posted by fKd [219.89.206.18] on 2010/01/29 03:21:26
well put pjw.
on a flip side... i am thinking about trying to make a quake1 sp level... not an episode as that would require a lot of work... so, how complex can the brush work be in quake? can i just go nuts or will the engine just conk out and break? (vanilla quake)
thats something i've been impressed with in the idtech3 stuff... i seem to be able to just keep on going and going.. as long as i keep an eye on caulking and detail brushes it just does not break. (much)
Fkd:
#27 posted by metlslime [173.11.92.50] on 2010/01/29 03:39:32
you will definitely hit some limits if you go hog-wild. There are two types of limits:
1. soft limits: high complexity can trigger bugs in the compilers and/or extend vis times exponentially. Aguirre's tools have fixed a lot of the bugs, but the exponential vis times are inherent in the way quake vis is calculated.
2. hard limits: there are various numeric limits (number of leafs, nodes, faces, etc.) which can prevent the map from loading in a stock engine. However, many of these limits have been lifted by some of the popular engines, which means there is a viable audience for limits-breaking maps. (but it's still a smaller audience than if you were compatible with all quake engines)
Engines that support high limits (As far as I know):
Fitzquake - http://celephais.net/fitzquake/
AguirRe's engines - http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/
Darkplaces - http://icculus.org/twilight/darkpl...
DirectQ - http://mhquake.blogspot.com/
Check out some popular recent SP maps to see what is possible, that might help guide your expectations since you are used to Quake 3 mapping. APSP2, Marcher Fortress, Day of the Lords, ne_tower, A Roman Wilderness of Pain, etc. (check the news archive on this site for map releases)
Fkd
#28 posted by nitin [203.202.43.53] on 2010/01/29 03:49:43
I'd bet it be a tech level :)
Who Me? :D
#29 posted by fKd [219.89.206.18] on 2010/01/29 04:03:50
lol indeed. ha, will have to call on my old doom mapping styles.. tricks and traps yo :D
Shots
#30 posted by Baker [99.54.146.62] on 2010/01/29 04:24:30
http://www.quaddicted.com/feature/...
http://www.lunaran.com/images/maps...
http://www.lunaran.com/images/maps...
http://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/...
http://quakeone.com/~images/news/l...
Map download directory @ Quaddicted:
http://www.quaddicted.com/spmaps.h...
Convert Quake 3 to Quake with the click of a button:
http://forums.inside3d.com/viewtop...
Although there are a lot of engines that might get used for single player, FitzQuake 0.85 is by far the dominant one.
Wow
#31 posted by ijed [190.20.66.158] on 2010/01/29 04:27:34
People treating each other like people on the internet.
Good luck on the level - just throw it together and it'll be fun.
The wierd thing about Quake1 is the more you try, the less happens. You end up stuck on piddling details... but that's me.
Limits
#32 posted by RickyT23 [217.42.132.38] on 2010/01/29 13:31:27
Well I really touched the limits of the standard Quake engine with my last large SP map starkmon. If you want to see what is possible without breaking any limits then take a look! :)
There are some really massive maps out there which break many limits too, and they did get a lot of play. I always thought it would be cool to just make an absolutely huge map, like a whole episode in one map, with several different areas and levels, using as much of the useable space as possible. Coloured lighting would be out though because if the Tyrlite tool not supporting more than roughly 2000 entities to be in a map. And I dont mean just light entities. But AguirRes light tool would allow more entities than that, so it could be done.
I See...many Lights!
#33 posted by Preach [94.169.109.218] on 2010/01/29 17:53:20
Ricky, did you have over 2000 lights in the map, or just 2000 entities in total? You could probably get around the Tyrlight restriction in the former case by removing any non-light entities from the map with an entity ripper, then restoring them after the light pass was complete. I suppose you would want to be able to do it from a batch file, to allow for incremental builds, but that should be possible too...
Hmmm
#34 posted by RickyT23 [82.20.47.17] on 2010/01/29 19:00:46
Well it was entities. I think theres a hard 2048 entity limit in Tyrlite.
Removing all of the other entities for the sake of doing a light pass sounds like an arduous task, but did not try that, and I can see how it might work. I guess.
Somebody really clever could re-work the tool maybe ;)
@Ricky
#35 posted by Baker [99.54.146.62] on 2010/01/29 20:21:35
Well it was entities. I think theres a hard 2048 entity limit in Tyrlite.
Unless there is something else preventing that, the tool's limit doesn't matter that much because the tool is Open Source.
1. You download Tyrann's source:
http://www.disenchant.net/files/ut...
2. Open bspfile.h and find this
#define MAX_MAP_ENTITIES 2048
3. Change the number
4. Open free Visual Studio C++ Express Edition ...
http://www.microsoft.com/express/v...
and recompile Tyrlite ;)
Interesting
#36 posted by RickyT23 [82.20.47.17] on 2010/01/29 21:47:51
That sounds doable :)
What About The Mh Light Tool
#37 posted by meTch [64.148.48.167] on 2010/01/30 02:01:17
by mh?
Mh Light Tool...
#38 posted by metlslime [173.11.92.50] on 2010/01/30 02:02:36
the one that colorizes your lighting? I don't think that uses light entities at all...
@Ricky
#39 posted by Baker [99.54.146.62] on 2010/02/01 14:37:31
Here is Tyrlite recompiled with 8192 as the max entities. Let me know if it works, it's entirely untested.
http://www.quake-1.com/files/devel...
(I noticed it wouldn't compile in Visual Studio, I ended up getting "Cyggy" with it. No you don't want to know ...)
Cool Man
#40 posted by RickyT23 [217.42.132.38] on 2010/02/01 15:08:32
Now all I need is a map with >2048 entities and coloured lights in it to compile ;)
No, seriously though, I will be keeping a copy of this tool very well backed up and stored on my HDD for when need it :)
I could run some sort of test map too though I guess....
This post was flagged as spam.
#41 posted by a spammer [196.207.198.211] on 2010/02/10 16:45:42

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