Operation: Overload

[Baker]

Nope, below is a quote from the Quake engine source release. The QC was released earlier. I don't want to search for it now. Maybe someone else has more knowledge or links or files.

The QuakeC license is pretty clearly non-GPL unless someone wants it to be. Otherwise any mod created after whatever date would have to be GPL.

Personally, I think any talk about licenses is a non-issue anyway. It's boring, doesn't solve "people problems".

Once a project goes from statements like

2006

Trinca told me you ( I'm sure he said it was you and mwh ) were asking after the Quoth source to make it QW compatible? Is it the compatibility at issue?

2006

obviously though, if you guys don't want anyone to see these cheat catching code fixes, then you won't want them in quoth, as we usually release the source code later on.

2008

The source code will not be released.

And with no explanation of this change in intent and a clear indication that no discussion of the matter would be accepted.

Obviously at some point a benign community project transformed into a deceptive evil one. With such a trust violation, the license matters little at such a point.

It's like a Hamlet moment where Hamlet attempts to catch the conscience of the king; evil revealed. And once that happens, what more do you need to know?

[MH]

Nope, below is a quote from the Quake engine source release. The QC was released earlier. I don't want to search for it now. Maybe someone else has more knowledge or links or files.

I would have said "yes, actually". The QC source certainly was released earlier under a different license, but it was also subsequently re-released (after the engine source) under the GPL. As per John Carmack's .plan file entry I posted the link to above.

The .qc files for quake1/quakeworld are now available under the GPL in source/qw-qc.tar.gx on out ftp site. This was an oversight on my part in the original release.

Unfortunately the situation is slightly complicated in that there was a pre-GPL release that it could be argued was used as the source base for any given mod. I don't know the legal position (and it would probably take an experienced licensing lawyer to untangle it), but keeping a QC mod closed source is certainly not respecting the intention.

That aside, I do understand the reason why something like Quoth would be closed source. If I read things correct, it's to prevent fragmentation of the code base and to ensure that there is a single consistent version of Quoth that everybody is using. That's cool, but all the same, legally it's a helluva grey area and a place I would prefer to err on the side of caution in (and would prefer even more not to even go there).

[Baker]

I would have said "yes, actually". The QC source certainly was released earlier under a different license

One thing I do think is highly weird for a closed source is to have actually used undisputed GPL code in the project -- or at least this appears to be the case (added that qualifier; I don't want to rush to judgment).

Quoth strongly has the appearance of having Pox's Extras R4 source code in it. Pox's Extra's license agreement is:

In mid 2002 nostalgia and boredom drove me to write some interesting QuakeC hacks. The result is this "Extras" mod, which aims to provide extra stuff for Quake mappers. It features honest to goodness func_water, and func_ladder entities...

GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
Version 2, June 1991

Copyright (C) 1989, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA
Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies
of this license document, but changing it is not allowed.

Preamble

The licenses for most software are designed to take away your
freedom to share and change it. By contrast, the GNU General Public
License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change free
software--to make sure the software is free for all its users. This
General Public License applies to most of the Free Software
Foundation's software and to any other program whose authors commit to
using it. (Some other Free Software Foundation software is covered by
the GNU Library General Public License instead.) You can apply it to
your programs, too.

It is an interesting idea that Quoth 2.1 could borrow func_ladder off of Pox Extra's and somehow not need to use that code under the license that Pox Extra's was released under.

This makes Quoth even far more smelly -- if this is in fact the case, like it would seem, although perhaps an alternate explanation exists.

[Neil]

wtf is Quoth?

[Baker]

To JPL:

After further thinking, I agree with your point of view.

I disagree with the way Quoth was handled and I do think mappers that support Quoth are misguided, but I was looking at some of the screenshots of the architecture of some of these newest maps at Quaddicted and 2 wrongs do not make a right.

Next news item: Great architecture Quoth maps.

I shouldn't be biased against the Quake works of mappers even using an "expansion" [limitation] pack that I believe has been handled extremely poorly.

Besides, all these things work themselves out.

wtf is Quoth?

Signs Of Koth

[Neil]

oh nvmd its single player and therefore has no meaning in my life. Baker is a smart guy, you should all listen to what he says.

[spooker]

well, socio-cultural issues aside, is quoth fun to play?

[Neil]

i saw some videos on youchube, looks decent.

[JPL]

Originally posted by Baker:

I disagree with the way Quoth was handled and I do think mappers that support Quoth are misguided, but I was looking at some of the screenshots of the architecture of some of these newest maps at Quaddicted and 2 wrongs do not make a right.

Well, again it is a matter of point of view. Quoth owners wants to preserve their ownership for sure... that limits their creativity, and enclose the mod in "what they want to add only", that for sure will not please everybody in a sense that it will always miss A feature....
On my side, if I use Quoth it is because first I don't have the knowledge to build my own qc mod, and second because there are enough guidances here (Quoth: Mapping Tutorial) to help for mapping.
Anyway, we could discuss the pros and the cons of Quoth for centuries, I doubt we would find a decent agreement at the end... though ...



Originally posted by Spooker:

well, socio-cultural issues aside, is quoth fun to play?

There are plenty of maps now that have been released "under quoth mod umbrella"... check it out either at Quaddicted (Quaddicted.com: Quake Singleplayer Maps) or at func_ (Func_Msgboard: Forum)
BTW, I made also my latest maps based on Quoth (http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/) <= self-advertising

Enjoy !

[Baker]

Anyway, we could discuss the pros and the cons of Quoth for centuries, I doubt we would find a decent agreement at the end... though ...

^^ Remember this statement.

There will come a day when you will concede you were all wrong and didn't get it and say "Gee, Baker. I can't believe how wrong I was!"

And you will owe me 5 large beers.

But it will be ok! As your consolation prize will be that you are world famous, at least among gamers that have a clue -- not that there are many of those.

[Baker]

well, socio-cultural issues aside, is quoth fun to play?

Play either ...

The Slime Refinery Complex (weenies not welcome; very hard and you'll die a lot) or The Hand That Feeds (you'll die a lot but not as bad).

Since you have plenty of coop experience, I'm sure you'll do fine. Other than Warpspasm, in my opinion the first map that really did something amazing with Quoth was The Hand That Feeds. distrans made an evil super-harsh Quoth map using JPL's Doom3 converted texture set and ijed made an evil "Fiend-in-the-back" Quoth map (Spacehulk 256).

Use Google to find.

[lxndr]

That is a very good idea, I sent a mail to aguirRe (he made a nice engine limit list) and asked if using it for the Quake Wiki ( Main Page - Quake Wiki ) would be alright.

Thx for the link, I didn't know there were already a Quaki. It'd would great if there were more people involved. I gonna registered.

http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/readmegl.txt
It's quite impressive indeed ! I feel very small right now

[Spirit]

Speaking of creativity, it could be interesting to list all the limitations that quake mappers can face, on the engine side, on the level editor side, etc.. and then try to address them.

It could start like a new thread or a "readonly" forum, or better, a wiki. No discussions, just raw stuff (ex: 255 colors palette, model textures stretched, Quark not running on Linux, player can't crouch, etc...). It's not bugs, but things that could enhanced everyday life if they were solved, giving more freedom to create.

With aguirRe's base I created Engine Limits - Quake Wiki for the plain "numeral" limits.


edit: Heh, you posted while I worked on it. The wiki is pretty hidden sadly, I recently grabbed quakewiki.org to use for it. Just need to get hold of the quakedev.com admin and Sajt (who's account the wiki is on) to make it work.

[JPL]

Baker....

And you will owe me 5 large beers.

Well, I'll have to pay 10 beers, as I don't like to let people drink alone generally

[Baker]

Well, I'll have to pay 10 beers, as I don't like to let people drink alone generally

Sometimes real life writes better and more ironic stories than a writer could ever imagine.