Darkplaces Inconviences

[foq]

* Grenade Jump doesnt work. When I fire a grenade, it bounces behind me and bounces around rather than straight in the air.

* vispatch works on water and slime, but not lava.

* I don't like the way Darkplaces handles lag. It seems like bad FPS, not bad ping.

* can't record demos on the fly.

* I was getting stuck in q1edge alot near the Swamp.

* I don't like the new sounds in darkplaces (RL doesn't sound right)

* The ability to write ` in the console (That's how I close the console)

Some things I DO like about Darkplaces:

* .pk3 support

* The menu isnt cluttered anymore.

* It looks pretty much faithful to GLPRO without fancy settings

* I get solid 60FPS on GLPRO looks

* If you are useing a lower r_wateralpha and the map isn't vissed, it shows up like regular water and not the transparent water that looks messed up.

* The r_wateralpha control in the menu overrides Gunter's fvf shit

[Canadian*Sniper]

* Grenade Jump doesnt work. When I fire a grenade, it bounces behind me and bounces around rather than straight in the air.

I'm sure you can find the answer if you look under my posts

* vispatch works on water and slime, but not lava.

Since when do you need to see through lava in quake?

* can't record demos on the fly.

yeap

* I was getting stuck in q1edge alot near the Swamp.

That's more of a yourbrain inconvenience, not darkplaces fault you can't swim.

* I don't like the new sounds in darkplaces (RL doesn't sound right)

Darkplaces didn't alter any of the sounds. So the RL sounds like it should sound in Quake

some useless text for sole

[foq]

GLPRO never got me stuck in Swamp
Frankly, GLPRO is far superior in the fact that it doesn't have one problem that darkplaces has. GLPRO's only fault is the ugly water if the map isn't vised and no pk3 support (which only saves space on my hdd, and today's hdds are cheap and large enough to support 50 extra megs by useing .pak files in place of .pk3 files in Quake)

[Baker]

* Grenade Jump doesnt work. When I fire a grenade, it bounces behind me and bounces around rather than straight in the air.

Fixable, there is a cvar that turns off that fix. I don't remember the name.

* I don't like the new sounds in darkplaces (RL doesn't sound right)

Fixable via adding -sndspeed 11025 -sndstereo to the command line. I agree that this doesn't sound to me either because I'm used to the standard Quake sounds.

* The ability to write ` in the console (That's how I close the console)

The current beta has changed it so "tidle closing console is default behavior".

In the version you have, do con_closeconsoleontoggle 1 (or something like that) in the console and that is fixed.

[Baker]

GLPRO's only fault is the ugly water if the map isn't vised and no pk3 support (which only saves space on my hdd, and today's hdds are cheap and large enough to support 50 extra megs by useing .pak files in place of .pk3 files in Quake)

GLPRO is nice in that it does what it does well, but GLPRO can't:

1. Change the resolution via the menu
2. Doesn't have mouselook in the menu and if you want mouselook permanently on, you have to edit a config file (how primitive).
3. Can't undo vertical sync to get more than 60-72 FPS
4. Must set FOV in ProQuake via a config file (also primitive)

Those weaknesses of GLPRO doesn't make these DarkPlaces these differences go away, but some documentation and discussion help.

/Very good thread, I'm thinking about setting up a DarkPlaces FAQ because your experience with DarkPlaces was not any different than my first experience, but I think the information on these topics is a lot more free flowing than when I had this experience.

I get solid 60FPS

I don't always -- even with everything off. It fluctates from 30 FPS to 250 FPS and I can even provide an example map where I get only about 40 FPS on average (the Undergate), which is weird because that is a full bright map (no lighting!).

[scar3crow]

Frankly, GLPRO is far superior in the fact that it doesn't have one problem that darkplaces has.

Frankly DarkPlaces is far superior in that it doesnt have one of the problems that GLPRO has, namely stuttering motion, a lack of mouse precision, a false sense of security due to exclusionary modules, it can actually change resolution, isnt imprisoned by v_sync and is quite customizable in look while being tasteful.

vispatch works on water and slime, but not lava.

Im glad for this, lava is an opaque dense liquid. Id go so far as to say it should max the allowed alpha of mud textures to 50% as well, because its silly otherwise. But why would you even want to see into lava? If your opponent can survive in lava, I dont think being able to see to shoot them is going to matter - and it will just look odd.

It looks pretty much faithful to GLPRO without fancy settings

Do you mean GLQuake? Im sorry, but I cant accept crediting GLPRO for the "looks" of GLQuake, which looks... like WinQuake with some polyblend and nicer filtering on the textures, and soft round particles rather than ATHF's mooninites.

I get solid 60FPS on GLPRO looks

What kind of system are you running? Mine is from 2002 and I get 60 easily in DarkPlaces "looks", with everything on except for real time world lights (real time dynamic light entities is enabled). In smaller areas that can go to around 200, and hit 400 when Im looking at a surface. The only time Ive seen it dip below 40fps (which it rarely reaches that low in the first place) is on Masque of the Red Death - which is apparently a miracle because that map doesnt run well in DarkPlaces for LordHavoc himself. Maybe my old gf4ti4200 has some kind of miracle chip in it.

[Baker]

Frankly DarkPlaces is far superior

"Superior" isn't a quality of an engine, it is a conclusion!

There is no such thing as a superior engine, unless it gets higher FPS and performance, crashes less, is more thoroughly debugged, looks better and has more features AND works on more machines and systems!

I have met no superior engine thus far in Quake that wins in all of those categories over every other engine.

If there were, it would be used by all.

This is why, among other things, I consider JoeQuake 0.14 superior to Qrack and JoeQuake 0.14 superior to JoeQuake 0.15 (a couple of really annoying bugs exist), as an example.

The only superior engine I know of is Enhanced GLQuake, which is in all respects superior to ID software's Quake in all categories.

[scar3crow]

Baker - the language I used was a direct derivation of f0qer's language. Look at his statement and mine, I turned it around and listed the reasons why I find GLPro to be a less wise choice with DP being available.

[Baker]

Yeah, he did use the word "superior" (but I'd take in context as he is barely out of middle school )

I think FOQ's point of view is very valid in the sense that he is describing what he sees as an average player without special knowledge of features of the engine.

I guess I am reminded of some of the past DarkPlaces vs. Your Engine (TM) arguments.

Here are some things I know, at least I think I do:

1. You can't argue someone into liking or preferring an engine. You can only educate and explain.

2. Beware the "market of one". This one is worth reading twice! The "market of one" is a concept in both marketing and philosophy that if you like something or that if something works well for you (knowing what you know <---), that it does with everyone. In this case you have experience and effectively special knowledge/familiarity of the engine.

This is FALSE. Only thru understanding and addressing others points of views can you "win".

3. Terms like "superior" and "more advanced" detract from a goal, rather than achieve a goal. From my perspective, if you want to achieve X -- in this case, more widespread use of DarkPlaces -- the presumption of "superior" and "more advanced" to me equate with "perfect", and "perfect" in this case equates with "everyone should be using the engine as it is, knowing what you know."

I think DarkPlaces is a great engine and while I have not been using online much, I have been using it in single player a great deal lately and have been increasingly "falling in love with the engine."

And, as you can tell, I support the engine and think the features are great and I can say I see a LOT of things that I didn't see in the past. I like the fact it does not use replacement media and that it simply renders Quake with the existing "assets" (hate that word) but better.

I worry about the troubles DarkPlaces has with ATI cards or possibly better described, if true, the troubles that the ATI OpenGL drivers have with some of the OpenGL calls that DarkPlaces uses. This affects universality. I also worry about those dreaded Intel Integrated Media cards. FOQ, by the way, has one hell of graphics card -- just like Monster -- and could certainly use DarkPlaces full-time.

I also worry about the FPS thing and hope that I am in the minority with my equipment, but Quake has rather low computer requirements compared to most other games.

Those 2 things are beyond my control, but at least currently my mindset is focusing on information and documentation to address the questions.

Long winded post, for sure, but that's how I think.

Short summary: I should make an FAQ! Heheh

[scar3crow]

The only ages I know around here are those of personal friends - at least a region of their age.

I think FOQ's point of view is very valid in the sense that he is describing what he sees as an average player without special knowledge of features of the engine.

I guess my fault comes from considering myself to be below average when it comes to knowledge of Quake. I think this is a side effect of having LordHavoc, FrikaC, Sajt, and Lardarse as some of my closest friends...

Response to 1: This is why I list my reasons for not using other engines, rather than just going "nuh-uh!" or going "I have my reasons..."

Response to 2: Yup.

Response to 3: The term superior to me implies a statement of an array with values assigned, and one possessing a higher value than others. Not perfection, as it exists well within time and thus can change. However you mentioned knowing what I know, which is also a condition of time, and so yes, with my education level, I would consider DarkPlaces to be the best choice at the current moment. I think it should be assumed with any statement based upon someone's experiences that they also bring with them the framework of that experience (my knowledge, my system), and this framework can be theoretically imposed upon others stereotypically depending on self-perception. I assumed myself to be average or below average in this department. I might be wrong, in either direction.

I heard of ATI's woes with many OpenGL things, before even specifically of DarkPlaces' problems with it. I wasnt surprised when DP had difficulty with them as well.

A FAQ would be good.

[Baker]

I've tried to write this post several times and just gave up because no matter how I wrote it, it didn't look right or looked negative/defensive so I scrapped it.

I like DarkPlaces better than any other engine by a margin that isn't even close. These latest changes with the easier menu made things so much easier and in the past where I would get frustrated trying to break-in DarkPlaces, it does not happen now at all (except r_glsl 0 and cl_bob 0 not saving to the config! Other key cvars should be looked at to see if they save if the default value isn't 0).

Even though I like the engine, GLQuake is remarkable for running solidly on a wide diversity of machines and systems and doing it with very high performance. ProQuake is a very mild modification, really, to GLQuake and so it can run on very diverse set of machines.

DarkPlaces needs a more powerful machine (video card and RAM for sure) than the standard Quake engine and because the equipment being used by existing players is so diverse, DarkPlaces isn't right for everyone but as time goes on, the average machine gets more powerful making it an increasingly viable option for players on the whole.

My current desktop, for example -- not necessarily typical, is a 2.0 Ghz desktop that runs everything well. It does not have any AGP or PCI-e slots, limiting my options for a graphics card to PCI ones. Buying a new computer is easy! Transferring applications is absolutely impossible and transferring data is a pain. My Geforce 5200FX doesn't perform well enough for steady online play and every once in a while, I lag in single player too. I blame Microsoft for retarding the computer upgrade process, especially since all new computers (including my laptop) come with Vista. Vista is horrible compared to Windows XP.

Maybe this is why people stick with a computer for longer and longer. I love my desktop, it is perfectly setup and does everything ... *cough* except for DarkPlaces @ 200 FPS in a tough battle */cough*

/Sigh

[Baker]

* Grenade Jump doesnt work. When I fire a grenade, it bounces behind me and bounces around rather than straight in the air.

Try "sv_gameplayfix_grenadebouncedownslopes 0" and see if the that changes this.

[R00k]

Actually, Baker that's a server side command (unless he is playing single player gameplay it won't affect him), which is something i patched into the wqpro.exe running on rage, about 8 months ago. I found it odd for grenades to "stick" on a ramp, and LordHavoc had the proper solution.
So, if that's a problem for him trying to grenade/rj on a ramp that would be my fault, not DarkPlaces.

[Baker]

Actually, Baker that's a server side command (unless he is playing single player gameplay it won't affect him), which is something i patched into the wqpro.exe running on rage, about 8 months ago. I found it odd for grenades to "stick" on a ramp, and LordHavoc had the proper solution.
So, if that's a problem for him trying to grenade/rj on a ramp that would be my fault, not DarkPlaces.

I thought he might have been doing it offline since a client can't affect behavior of grenades on a server.

However! It is possible that because DarkPlaces defaults to full pitch (you can look farther up and farther down), that maybe he was throwing the grenade up in the air at a different angle than what would happen in ProQuake.

[=peg=]

However! It is possible that because DarkPlaces defaults to full pitch (you can look farther up and farther down), that maybe he was throwing the grenade up in the air at a different angle than what would happen in ProQuake.

im sure that was the issue.. in_pitch_max 80 and in_pitch_min -70 should fix that.. or if it doesn't.. use C*S's insane floating point values