KCPN WIP Download

[damage_inc]

LOL!! ... yeah brah make sure that you do at least one creative thing. @ KillPixel

fyi - kp is a professional graphic artist. He PM'd me some of his portfolio, pretty good stuff.

Okay, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe that wasn't the best choice of words... BITE ME! Baaaaaaaaahahahaha

[Guest]

I got this in my TODO list... keep the good work!

[golden_boy]

Warning, Spoilers.

Here comes some fresh-off-the-presses feedback. As usual, don't let any of this discourage you! Perhaps you can distill something useful out of this.

File names and readme

I couldn't initially load the map until I went and renamed the pak file "pak0.pak". It seems some engines don't load pakfiles with random names.

I couldn't find the readme after installation because it's not inside the mod folder. I suggest placing the readme file next to the pak file and naming it something more descriptive than "readmeh".

Good things

The brushwork and environment art (as far as Quake has any) is good looking and interesting. (This may seem like a short statement compared to the rest of this post, but in fact you did very well there and it deserves a lot of praise.)

The lighting is good in the places that are lit - I think the map is too dark though, see below.

Good use of ambient sounds, but I would like even more of those.

The various effects (lights turning on etc) are pretty cool. But there is a risk of over-planning and over-scripting, see below.

Playability: Too Dark, Lack of Resources

Map is often too dark IMO. Some enemies appear pitch black because the floor below them is black (this is how models are lit in Quake, they take their light value from the floor beneath them so black floor == black monster).

By far not enough health and ammo. You often place ammo behind enemies, as if it was a reward - when in fact it is a requirement. Health and ammo (at least shells and nails) should not routinely be presented as a reward, they are REQUIRED for the player to keep playing. (EXTRA ammo such as rockets can be used as a reward of course, but consider giving the shells to the player BEFORE the fight instead of afterwards -- he may otherwise be dead before he gets to them.)

I ran out of ammo very quickly. Remember health and shells are the fuel that keeps the player running. Give them enough fuel.

In one of the first rooms you are giving the player a large pack of nails, but they don't have the nailgun yet. So this seems like mockery. Perhaps do the obvious thing and give them a pack of shells instead.

Intro punishes respawning players

The intro, while cool to look at, gets annoying when you die and respawn - the more you die, the more you have to watch the intro. Eventually it feels like a punishment, because when I get killed in a game, I want to enter the gameplay again ASAP, ideally where I left off, instead of having to watch the intro again every time. So I guess I better start to quicksave often.

The same goes for the lift and the slowly opening doors at the beginning -- they are very cool the first time around, but the more the player dies, the more they turn into an extra punishment. Being on a long lift ride isn't really very interesting - this is something that Doom 3 and Quake 4 are guilty of, a lot of unnecessary "lift riding time". It's a stupid mechanic because nothing actually happens while the player is on the lift - you're in the game, so it counts as game time alright, but nothing is actually happening except the walls are whizzing by. Long lifts are a bit pointless especially if the player has to ride them every time he got killed.

Item placement: secrets vs non-secrets

Stuff like the green armour and the super shotgun are somewhat hidden in badly lit spots. This is a mistake; if you want the player to have an item, especially a weapon (because you're counting on this with your combat design), place it in such a way that they must notice it. Only secrets should be harder to find. So if you have an item that is easy to miss, make it a secret; if you want the player to have it, make it easy to notice. There shouldn't be too many in-betweens.

Monster placement and combat design: Scripted ambush-rape

Monster placement is often done in a way that makes it look like you WANT to kill the player. For example, the player is in that locked room, and then a door opens and an ogre fires his grenade into the little room. As soon as the player steps out of it (to avoid the grenade, naturally) a dog immediately mauls them. In this case, the player is punished for doing the right thing - they try to avoid the ogre, only to have a dog in their face. This is a typical newbie mistake. You don't have to set the player up to get killed; they will manage that all on their own! You'd be surprised. Anyway, don't punish the player for doing the correct thing (evading the first monster).

The mindset of "how can I attack the player (via monster placement)" is problematic. The job of monster placement is not to ambush, attack or kill the player. It is to give the player something to shoot, posing a mild challenge, and making them feel good when they prevail. The art is to make the player feel like they overcame a serious threat when in fact there wasn't much of a threat at all. Remember, as a mapper, you're never out to kill the player -- you want them to LIVE (so they play all of your map instead of smashing their keyboard) while feeling like a hero. Don't try to rape the player.

The tunnel with the fiend: The problem I see here is that in Fiend combat, you pretty much have to strafe to avoid the pounce (this is inherent to the monster's design), but in a tunnel, you cannot. So this is another situation where it feels like you're taking options away from the player in a scripted ambush sequence, basically again trying to kill the player by putting them at a disadvantage. Much the same problem applies to the ogre that you fight in the same area. Not enough room to evade.

Falling back down to the lower level near the fiend tunnel requires the player to do a lot of backtracking; it would be good to provide a lift or another shortcut that becomes active once you reach the upper level.

Room with zombies and fiends: I was low on health when I entered this room, and then I took fall damage, reducing me to below 10 HP. You might want to provide some health kits next to the grenade launcher instead of 1 behind the zombies (see rewards vs requirements above). After I killed the zombies, several fiends entered the smallish room and my health was still below 10. The floor here is also almost black, so the fiends are very hard to see. Needless to say, this sucked. If one enters the blind pipes here for supplies, one gets pinned by fiends without an exit. Again, removing options from the player.

This room is followed by another tunnel with a fiend in it; see above. Then you get health AFTER the fiend - again, confusing rewards with requirements.

Another shambler attack that turns out to be no attack; and I fall into a pitch black hole with 8 health left. The architecture here is very cool; but it is so dark that I can't see what is attacking me. By now, I am quicksaving after every single fight. After the lift, another pitch-black ogre in cramped spaces. Then a room with a machine in the middle - and a pitch black fiend that jumps me before I even have a chance to spot it. Game over again.

In the section with the vores and the enforcers, again the player is caught in extremely narrow corridors so there isn't really any option to strafe, much less circle strafe. That first vore practically fills the corridor, so the only way to kill it is to either hug the corner or bounce grenades around it. It feels like vore combat could be so much more - that monster is basically a mobile turret shooting homing missiles, but here it is reduced to a stationary obstacle that can be attacked from 1 direction.

Next scripted sequence; I get transported directly in front of an attacking fiend - but didn't get any ammo and not nearly enough health before that. I get pummeled before I can realistically react. Of course the next few times, I know what's coming - reducing the challenge to "run from hungry fiend with very little HP left and no place to dodge". This while playing on "Normal". Hmm.

The shambler ambush - I have 37 HP and 4 shells left. The confusing fight after that - not really doable with this few resources. From the monster counter, I assume this is the end.

Verdict: Good art, bad design.

Very cool architecture full of interesting effects, but darkness, lack of essential resources and merciless, often unavoidable scripted ambushes out of the darkness make the actual gameplay hard to enjoy. Monsters aren't used well (fiends in narrow tunnels?) and options are constantly removed from the player, such as the essential option to move and dodge. Over-reliance on scripted events; give the player more room to breathe. You hit the player with one scripted situation after another; the level can be described as a sequence of scripted events. Why not allow the player to explore the game world freely, getting the drop on unsuspecting monsters? As a result, the level feels 100% linear. The comparison that comes to mind is Quake 4.

maybe ease up

My advice would be to ease up on the scripted rape ambushes; allow the player to explore several alternative routes without being constantly attacked; and most of all, don't over-think and over-plan the gameplay so much, because it feels like the player is on a leash at all times. Even doors usually only open after the player triggered something.

Now I'm not saying that I am perfect; I make much the same mistakes and I constantly need to remind myself of the same things. The problems I have with this map are perennial issues that we can spot in many games.


Freedom!

Additional connections between main areas in the game world that the player can explore without constantly being teleported would go a long way to help this. Additional interactivity such as breakable crates, pushable items, more buttons and switches, the ability to use traps against monsters etc. would also help.

In general, the player is always on the receiving end of the ambushes here; why not let them roam the world and create some ambushes of their own, against monsters. Patrolling monsters for instance allow the player to plan an attack themselves.

[MadGypsy]

Wow, great post g_b! I just learned a bunch of stuff. I still haven't played this version of his map yet, but I played a bunch of it when I was helping him with the QC and I concur about scripted events and having a sense of "this is impossible". I also agree about it being far too dark in areas.

To be fair, though. This is his first map and in my opinion, for a first map (maybe even a second or third map) this thing is amazing. KP's geometry made a lot of sense to me and there never was a time where the map seemed to be becoming stale or redundant. There is always a lot of atmosphere and interesting detail that made me feel like I actually was somewhere that was possible.

In my opinion this map made (many) original Q1 maps look like a sad attempt to just make up a bunch of areas to play in. Keep at it KP! You just need to rethink some monsters, lights and items and you'll really be on to something.

[KillPixel]

Nice, gb! Talk about some feedback! This is will very much come in handy moving forward. I found it not at all discouraging, as it pretty much affirms most of my conclusions, save a couple points.

I figured the concensus would be “looks neat, but is too hard and/or boring and frustrating".

I would like to address gb’s critique more or less point by point, as his input is pretty detailed.

File names and readme

I’ll be sure to call it pak0 from now on, I released this on a whim and payed little attention to the package, as it’s just a “playable” compile for the peeps here on quakeone.

Good things

Good use of ambient sounds, but I would like even more of those.

Indeed, I will be placing them after the map is complete. I would like to have a custent *coughMadGypsycough* that will allow me to point to custom sounds so I can really craft an interesting and immersive soundscape.

My intent is that the music is used for this map, as the sounds are simply supplemental at this stage.

Playability: Too Dark, Lack of Resources

First, I’d like to say that as I was figuring out the overall difficulty I was playing the Plutonia Experiment and some of the other more difficult wads for Doom II. Also at that time I was getting banned from every crackhouse server in CSS for hacking. For the record, I’ve never touched any cheat for any MP game, ever. So, from where I’m coming from the map still feels way too easy, this is by far the easiest build (some early versions where psychotic, trust me).

Because I knew the map, giving me a great advantage, I had to make up some sort of hard ‘n fast formula for setting up the difficulty. This is basically what it was (not strictly, though): Get hit once by every other enemy, miss one shot every other enemy, pick up all items. Doing this should allow you to still beat the level.

One night I invited my younger brother over to play test it and I realized that it may be just a tad too difficult for most people. I didn’t have him play test much after that, as a play tester is really only valuable on his or her first play through, hence, this release.

Map is often too dark IMO.

Yes, I agree, often it is too dark, but intentionally (see overall design plan at end of post). Only the first 3rd (or less) of the finished map will be too dark. You may notice the map so far brightens up the further you go.

By far not enough health and ammo. You often place ammo behind enemies, as if it was a reward - when in fact it is a requirement.

I see, in my personal play tests ammo shortage was not a real detriment and did not interfere with the actual killing of enemies, it simply created some challenge and suspense by causing you to spend ammo wisely. In that context, the ammo being given after battles was a non-issue.

In one of the first rooms you are giving the player a large pack of nails, but they don't have the nailgun yet. So this seems like mockery.

YES! That is exactly what I was going for. The level is the antagonist of this map (or the cartographer, a character that will be be more fleshed out in the final version).

Intro punishes respawning players

I never really took dying into account because it very rarely happened, plus I tend to quick save a lot anyway. But, I STRONGLY agree with this point, as it is one of my biggest peeves in gaming. I believe Thomas Grip had some great insight on this topic when discussing the water monster section in Amnesia: The Dark Descent (one of the most well crafted games ever IMO).

Item placement: secrets vs non-secrets

Stuff like the green armour and the super shotgun are somewhat hidden in badly lit spots. This is a mistake; if you want the player to have an item, especially a weapon (because you're counting on this with your combat design), place it in such a way that they must notice it. Only secrets should be harder to find. So if you have an item that is easy to miss, make it a secret; if you want the player to have it, make it easy to notice. There shouldn't be too many in-betweens.

Hrm. I felt this SSG was incredibly easy to find. It was placed in a slow paced section under a spotlight in its very own cubby. Also, you are basically led by the nose to the green armor; door opens directly in front of you and is the only item in a very short hall. I’m not sure, but this may be a matter of taste because I seriously doubt anyone would ever miss either item.

Monster placement and combat design: Scripted ambush-rape

Ok, this is the main issue and is what I think causes the other issues to seem masochistic.

Monster placement is often done in a way that makes it look like you WANT to kill the player.

It is never my intent to kill the player, in fact, I hope they make it through without dying once. But, I want the player to die if they don’t actually play. Without incentive to play it’s not a game, just a ‘walking through a space station’ simulator.

The art is to make the player feel like they overcame a serious threat when in fact there wasn't much of a threat at all.

This, to me, is a very tricky concept and one I feel is always attempted but never really pulled off... ever. An actual threat in the game world is the main force that pulls you out of your bedroom and into the game. I feel a feigned threat is far too easily spotted and shatters immersion almost instantly. You can, however, pull of a faux threat if you’ve already established that this game will kill your ass if you mess up. That way the player is always on his toes and will perceive everything as a threat, even though it isn’t. System Shock 2 is an excellent example of this (another masterfully crafted gaming experience).

The tunnel with the fiend: The problem I see here is that in Fiend combat, you pretty much have to strafe to avoid the pounce (this is inherent to the monster's design), but in a tunnel, you cannot. So this is another situation where it feels like you're taking options away from the player in a scripted ambush sequence, basically again trying to kill the player by putting them at a disadvantage. Much the same problem applies to the ogre that you fight in the same area. Not enough room to evade.

I specifically chose to place fiends in cramped tunnels, that way they are actually a threat. In quake, you just strafe a foot or two and you have a window to put in a couple shots or just kill it outright. Boring as hell and easy even on nightmare. You may notice, if you back up you won’t get hit by either tunnel fiend, not even once. I would also like to point out that in two of the three fiend tunnels you can strafe to avoid being hit, but the area you can strafe to is cut in half by the pillars. It’s ok to get hit by enemies, that’s part of their job. The mechanics of this game are so simple and easy to play against that I feel that sometimes you HAVE to increase the probability of taking damage one way or another.

In the section with the vores and the enforcers, again the player is caught in extremely narrow corridors so there isn't really any option to strafe, much less circle strafe. That first vore practically fills the corridor, so the only way to kill it is to either hug the corner or bounce grenades around it. It feels like vore combat could be so much more - that monster is basically a mobile turret shooting homing missiles, but here it is reduced to a stationary obstacle that can be attacked from 1 direction.

Yeah, the vore in the hall was placed there one a whim, mostly to act as a scare. I agree that both battles are highly limited and thus, very boring.

the level feels 100% linear. The comparison that comes to mind is Quake 4.

I agree entirely. But, it will make sense in the final version. I think now is a good time to discuss the overall design of the final version which will put all of this in context.

The full version can be visualized as 3 pieces:

Opening area (spawn to blue door).

I want the player to start on the back foot and be filled with caution, hence darkness that is “too” dark, seemingly unavoidable damage, scripted events, almost mocking item placement and limited resources. Here, there will also be some neat effects that are really just head games, giving a feeling of increasing insanity by the hands of the cartographer.

Blue area (blue door to yellow door).

The map is now far less linear feeling and player is given the next tier of weaponry (SNG and Rocket launcher). The environment becomes more open, well lit and more focused on combat and not oppressing the player. The environment will be more of an actual threat/obstacle than simply mood and mind games. A platforming section will be introduced and the gameplay will be more of the classic ‘jumpetty shoot shoot’ than ‘walk, something happens, walk, something else happens’. This section will boost morale of the player, giving him the feeling that he is growing stronger and is becoming the hunter and not the hunted.

Yellow area (yellow door to end)

This area will be the epic crescendo of the whole map. At this point, the player will have the entire armory (aside from the LG), have mowed down well over 250 enemies and has gone from scared little nancy to hardened monster killer. The section will be a very carefully balanced, challenging slaughterfest incorporating most elements of the previous sections but on steroids and well crafted.

Think of this map as a one and a half hour game, not just a level.

Summary

The post may seem to be a hard counter point to gb’s thoughts, the reason is that there is no point in parroting what gb already said, as I largely agree with him.

I think the issue is knowing your target audience and balancing accordingly. I personally feel it is better to make a game a little too hard than a little too easy. I DO NOT want to make CoD, Skyrim or RAGE... or most of the games that are out today, which are simply designed for the lowest common denominator. Luckily, quake offers four, count ‘em, FOUR different difficulty selections that I plan to make FULL use of... I’m talking totally different layouts for many areas.

My ‘better to be too hard’ approach may seem to be exclusionary, but it’s simply erring on the side that doesn’t defeat the defining attribute of a game. If ANYONE could be good at soccer or hockey, boxing or wrestling, skydiving or ping-pong, these things would be experienced and perceived very differently.

Looking back, my response was more broad than I anticipated, but I think I expressed my thoughts well enough. I’m taking ALL points raised in this thread into careful consideration and will be referring to this post throughout the making of this project right up to completion.

Thanks gb for the input, it’s a big help and will really contribute to the success of this project.

[KillPixel]

In my opinion this map made (many) original Q1 maps look like a sad attempt to just make up a bunch of areas to play in. Keep at it KP! You just need to rethink some monsters, lights and items and you'll really be on to something.

Thanks bro

[MadGypsy]

Did I hear someone cough my name? [looks around] You? Again?

hahaha JK

Be more specific, I just had an epic fail with sound in the trigger music thread. Not saying I can't do it, cause I can, even if I can't, but I need more info on what you want exactly.

[MadGypsy]

This, to me, is a very tricky concept and one I feel is always attempted but never really pulled off... ever. An actual threat in the game world is the main force that pulls you out of your bedroom and into the game. I feel a feigned threat is far too easily spotted and shatters immersion almost instantly. You can, however, pull of a faux threat if you�ve already established that this game will kill your ass if you mess up. That way the player is always on his toes and will perceive everything as a threat, even though it isn�t. System Shock 2 is an excellent example of this (another masterfully crafted gaming experience).

I agree with you about disagreeing with GB on perceived threats.

I know g_b knows his stuff 7 ways from Tuesday but I don't believe that his opinion on this is valid. It actually seems like an alternate possibility to the many other possibilities.

Consider if you are playing MP and someone is kicking your ass. Are they supposed to stop kicking your ass and start acting like a percieved threat so you will continue to play? Of course not. Some things are just hard and that's just a fact people need to live with. This is not a game for the Angry Birds crowd. Pong is not a game for the CS:S crowd...point being it is all a matter of taste.

Some will be thrown off by the complication of it all and others will be immersed in it. To claim "this is how it should be", in this case, is too final.

[JDSTONE]

i just started playing this one yesterday i havent made it far but its been fun. i like the opening with the title. i seem to be getting my ass handed to me at the start i ran out of shells and then a shambler poped up with nothing but an ax but then he was gone! i like all the cutouts in the wall and you can see other rooms. ill keep playing and see if i can make it to the end. like seven im not a big base map fan but this one is better then most it has a nice spookie feel to it.

[FifthElephant]

I really enjoyed the map, it does seem similar to some stuff I did with my deck16 map in that there were a lot of monster closet ambushes, tight spaces and big dark areas.

I found that a lot of players will be divided over this type of map for its unique gameplay and design decisions. I personally enjoyed many aspects of the map, I especially loved getting teleported to a shambler in a dark corridor very briefly (and having the spooky little girl show up).

My main criticisms would be that it was very tight on ammo in some spots, I ended up going toe to toe with a shambler with just an axe at one point. I also didn't like the gigantic teleporters used later in the map, teleporters used in this way can be a crutch for poor connectivity, good use of teleporters can be seen in some of Sock's maps (Midnight Stalker is a great example). There were quite a number of moments where you also had to go to a door, turn around to kill some dudes and then go back to the door, this was an overused gameplay device. Lastly I thought that the map could have used some big rooms to break up all the corridor action.

But overall the map was very solid and I hope you get around to finishing it up

[KillPixel]

@JDSTONER - Cool, hope you're able to make it through ok, seems like the initial balance is a bit on the challenging side

@FifthElephant - Glad you liked it so far, I agree the gameplay seems to be a bit divisive. I was wondering if anyone would actually see the little girl. In earlier drafts she was an antagonist of sorts, but it felt like a FEAR rip off so I ditched her.

I also didn't like the gigantic teleporters used later in the map, teleporters used in this way can be a crutch for poor connectivity

excerpt from my rant in the first post:

BTW, the sections between the falling shambler tunnel and when you fall from the ceiling are just ideas for later places in the map, I just put them in the players path for this release so you could look at it. The areas are marked by big teleporters and very few monsters, as well us just being unrefined.

More ammo is something that's first on my list as far as balance goes. I appreciate your input, I think people will be pleasantly surprised by the final version