Serious question... what side are you on, and give your reasons. No personal insults.

[omix2]

This is a littled bit on the retarded side>!!!!>>! I read for like 5 - 10 seconds and quit reading with the pre-concieved opinion that this was a fucking waste of my time and atleast 2 peoples time. This is irritating

I'm guessing you don't agree with it. In that case, lift a book, and start reading. Or, get an education. Then you can come back and tell me why it was "retarded."

Thing is its going to take you years to learn what you should've already been taught about the world to this day.

You just gave me another reason, by the way. The failure of our education system.

[golden_boy]

Five years ago, when I discussed with people on a whole other forum about these things (almost all of them Americans, because not the entire world has internet, you know?) they laughed at me because I was against the Iraq war. They called me naive, liberal (seems to be a negative word in USA?), left wing extremist, stupid european, and how the Germans were so bad that I had no right to complain, and they said the whole middle east should be turned into a parking lot. The worst thing was that the German media, apparently directly linked to yours (still) invented new hot words for people like me, for example "Bedenkentr�ger" ("Doubt-bearer") was fashionable for quite some time. It didn't feel good to be called names because you didn't buy into the hype. It didn't feel good at all, and it makes me angry to this day. It just makes me angry at stupid people who call me names based on some TV crap.

They prided themselves on the first Gulf war and how they "bulldozed those Iraquis into their graves" and that they were so civilized, and well informed, and I was so stupid.

ALL OF THEM had bought into the "weapons of mass destruction" lie that Mr. Powell had told to the UN council. And I was so stupid that I didn't know that. And then I dared to mention Hiroshima. Uh-oh. I should have known better...

And even if Saddam wasn't in Al Quaeda, "he was a bad guy" and thus it was right making war on him. It was for freedom, sheesh, that I didn't know that! Everybody likes freedom, yes?

When I saw the pictures on TV (when I still watched TV), how the Americans had pulled Saddam's sons out of their hideaway and butchered them, I grew sick. This shit shouldn't happen. This shit shouldn't be on TV. What century is this? Is this the oh so civilized country, the land of the free?

Seeing the pics of Lynndie England and her friends from Abu Ghraib almost didn't shock me anymore. It was kinda expected. Do you get the point yet?

And the government has really little to do with all of this. Those were normal American soldiers. Your boys and girls. You have a problem at home, in your society (yes, of course we do, too.) It seems to me that you (or your media, your school, culture etc.) promote aggressiveness and brutality, and simple-mindedness, in young people. Normal youth from the countryside don't torture prisoners. This is the part that most people don't get, or cannot stand to think about. There's this mental block.

Guantanamo is something that no civilized country should have. Prisoners dressed in orange overalls like dogs during the hunt, held in cages. No legal basis to give them a fair trial.

Boot camps for criminals (I admit I saw it on TV somewhere.) Sure, good idea! Make them ready for the army! Put criminals in the army? Uh wait, perhaps not so smart? Yes sir! No sir! Let's all be super-aggressive! (By the way, I was in the German army in the early Nineties, just after the fall of the Soviet Union. It was pretty sick, but not as sick as your boot camps.)

Yup, my image of the typical American has become more and more negative. I expect aggression, scorn, sarcasm, arrogance and mental short-circuits pretty much from the start, to the point where I can almost take no American seriously from the get-go. I was educated to value kindness though, so I give those I don't know the benefit of the doubt. 14 years of internet discussions (long and intense ones!) with mainly Americans did this to me. I started to automatically give Swedes, Indians, Japanese etc people more credit by default. I know it's wrong. I probably talked to the wrong people (or the wrong Americans had Internet.) And please notice how I learned rather good English, and am polite enough to use it, while the typical American thinks this is just normal, and OF COURSE he can expect everybody to speak his language, and doesn't even know where Germany is on the map, much less have any inclination to learn the language, apart from funny words like Kindergarten, Panzer and Auto. It is exactly this immesurable arrogance ("you should adopt our culture/religion/values, or you're retarded") that makes me super-angry and I suspect the terrorists, too. (I don't agree with them of course.) Retarded is probably the overused American word that I hate most. I heard it too often.

I know there are others, though. But you know, all your term limits and change talk doesn't mean shit to the people in Iraq. You can't just pull your troops out. You now have a responsibility for those people. You can't just wreak havoc in some country, then do some change talk, install some puppet government and pull out. You can't just forget about it all! You know what, I suspect there never was a plan for the time after the war, right? There just was no plan? Iraq has faktisk become part of your country, your problem. You can't just leave like that. If you do that, you'll lose all my respect eternally. It's just the cheap way out.

What you guys need is a plan to actually finish the war. Not just pull out and let them duke it out amongst themselves. That will just create more terrorists, and eventually Gulf War III. Hey, good excuse! That means even more money for the military-industrial complex (Omicron, you're an ass, but you did do your research.) Point 1: Your government must admit to the UN that the war was a mistake (and that they lied), and politely ask for help. Point 2: You must fully cooperate with the people that try to come up with a plan. Point 3: It would be nice if you would be so kind to join other international efforts, like the Kyoto protocol. People would be more willing to help. You know why the Germans are reluctant to help out in southern Afghanistan? Because it smells like you guys don't really have a plan, and we aren't entirely stupid.

Neither Hillary nor Obama has such a plan. (It's not popular probably.) So you should probably not vote for them (I mean that's your main problem right now.) Next time one of their peons comes to your house, ask if they have a plan to end the war. (No, pulling out isn't good enough.)

The way I see it, every single American is responsible for the chaos in Iraq. 99% of the population believed the WOMD crap (yeah, mobile weapon labs my ass, liar.) Just like 99% of Germans believed the Nazi propaganda. It's hard to accept I know. Both my grandpas were in the Nazi army (or even the SS, technically.) It sucks having that shit in your family or country. You have to accept it though. Accept that your country is sick. Welcome to the club. Let's move to Norway together.

Technically, the British government hangs in there, too, but AFAIR the majority of the public there was against the war very early.

To answer the question, I'm not on the terrorists' side. I believe killing civilians is wrong. I don't believe there are sides here at all, because this whole thing is just a construction. There are terrorists, yes. But they don't grow on trees normally. They come from somewhere. No one is born a terrorist. And, uh, there are US terrorists. So the original poll is moot.

I realize I wrote a lot of retarded liberal bullshit, but since you, Omicron, seem to be in the process of growing some balls, I thought OK, perhaps it's a good read for you. Most others can ignore this.

;-)

and would you consider finally deleting that signature? pretty please? Just let it go.

[omix2]

I don't see signatures at all, they are disabled for me.

Anyways, notice when some 13 year old dies, they always put it on the news. When we funded the Iraq vs. Iran war playing them against each other, all of the young men in those countries died, all of the teenagers died. Hundreds of thousands of people. Their male populations were DECIMATED, it was 75% women in the country alive after that.

We give these people 2 lines in our textbooks, for all their trouble that we caused.

Now you tell me this country has any moral standing, and deserves to even exist in the first place.

[Zop]

The food industry has gone pretty bad. I would strongly recommend not eating half the things sold in a major grocery store. Trans fats, high fructose corn syrup (corn has quite a story, including government subsidies), and MSG (or ingredients that contain MSG- check out http://www.truthinlabeling.org/hiddensources.html) are my avoidance priorities- as well as artificial sugar, but that's based more on principal. If a food company can't put chicken, noodles, and water together to make decent-tasting soup, then I don't want a part of it.

[omix2]

I've read that the MSG scare was a myth. I still don't know one way or the other. In some cases I've read that its only a small percentage of people that are sensitive to MSGs.

I'll avoid trans fats, large amts of saturated fats, lots of sugar (except in natural baked cookies), processed meats, nitrates, meat products in general except for chicken, non-organic milk, non-organic eggs, etc.

Its hard for me to get motivated to eat veggies. I'm a vegetarian, but I don't eat a lot of vegetables. Mostly bread, cheese, organic milk, grains / cereals, organic eggs, fruits, and white meat are 95% of my diet.

Maybe once every 6 months I'll have a good hamburger from fridays or applebees.


You know whats disturbing about cancer, disease, and obesity in this country, which are all linked, is that the food industry causes it, the government allows it to occur, and the pharmaceutical and medical lobby make BANK off of it all. Illness has become so profitable that we can't afford not to make everyone sick.

There's a lesson to be learned. You cannot have a private healthcare system. It will usually go the way of the USA's. I got a $15,000 bill for a one night stay at a hospital. You cannot apply free market principles to control of products such as food, you cannot allow interest groups to be able to sway congress and the white house.

[Baker]

I got a $15,000 bill for a one night stay at a hospital. You cannot apply free market principles to control of products such as food, you cannot allow interest groups to be able to sway congress and the white house.

This is true. Although I fear the government could make it worse.

I am less concerned that if Obama is elected that it would be all fucked up, than if Hillary were elected (guaranteed to be all fucked up).

Yup, my image of the typical American has become more and more negative. I expect aggression, scorn, sarcasm, arrogance and mental short-circuits pretty much from the start, to the point where I can almost take no American seriously from the get-go. I was educated to value kindness though, so I give those I don't know the benefit of the doubt. 14 years of internet discussions (long and intense ones!) with mainly Americans did this to me. I started to automatically give Swedes, Indians, Japanese etc people more credit by default. I know it's wrong.

I agree on a lot of this, I think America is a dysfunctional country. In my experience, Europeans are a lot nicer than Americans.

The "baby boomers" run this country and all the companies, and the country has been run (ruined) with pie in the sky 1960's ideals.

Effectively, due to demographics, everyone 50+ years old is the only voting block that matters.

And old people are not engaged with this world. They care about their social security, their property values, their stock values.

They don't care about the price of a college education, they don't care about the school systems in this country, they don't care about job sector in this country. It's like young are disenfranchised in this country almost entirely.

I can only imagine that since the government is smaller and closer to the people in Europe, you guys have avoided this problem somehow? Just a guess.

This is the country that found Microsoft guilty of having a monopoly and then ... well ... and then what? Nothing! Absolutely amazing!

[omix2]

This is true. Although I fear the government could make it worse.

I am less concerned that if Obama is elected that it would be all fucked up, than if Hillary were elected (guaranteed to be all fucked up).



I agree on a lot of this, I think America is a dysfunctional country. In my experience, Europeans are a lot nicer than Americans.

The "baby boomers" run this country and all the companies, and the country has been run (ruined) with pie in the sky 1960's ideals.

Effectively, due to demographics, everyone 50+ years old is the only voting block that matters.

And old people are not engaged with this world. They care about their social security, their property values, their stock values.

They don't care about the price of a college education, they don't care about the school systems in this country, they don't care about job sector in this country. It's like young are disenfranchised in this country almost entirely.

I can only imagine that since the government is smaller and closer to the people in Europe, you guys have avoided this problem somehow? Just a guess.

This is the country that found Microsoft guilty of having a monopoly and then ... well ... and then what? Nothing! Absolutely amazing!

They have a non broken system of government.

On election day in European country X, everyone votes. There are 15+ parties. Communist, socialist, nationalist, green, democratic, nationalist, republican, libertarian. Every person votes for the candidate of each party that he feels should be president. This person is just the "party leader," he is not really running to be president, he's just top dog in the party. Only the biggest percentage will have the "party leader" who becomes the #1 leader of the land. All parties get representation based on vote margin. At the end the votes are counted.
19% for communists
35% for nationalist
25% for libertarians
20% for nationalist, etc.

The #1 party who won, its party leader gets to be top dog. Then they make the congress / parliament.
[][][][][][]
19% representation for communist

[][][][][][][][][][][]
35% representation for nationalists

[][][][][][][][]
25% representation for libertarians,
etc.

These representatives are actually ACCOUNTABLE to the people. It will be their asses if they fuck up. And oh they're not millionares just because they're in politics (every single rep in the USA).

It is a system that actually gives people a voice. Which is why Europeans laugh at America and its fake democracy, as it tries to go around telling everyone else they're undemocratic.

*still waiting for guantanamo bay to come take me away*

[Spirit]

I support the side you called "terrorists", yet I would not call them that. I would rather call the USA terrorists.

[omix2]

I support the side you called "terrorists", yet I would not call them that. I would rather call the USA terrorists.

That's how I see it too.

[Baker]

They have a non broken system of government.

I think ours certainly is broke.

I have to say I'm thrilled that someone like Obama, who talks about issues, is running this year. But I acknowledge the only reason someone like him with so little experience is where he is is due to the fact that Hillary is god-awful candidate.

And the fact of the matter, no matter who becomes president, the system will still be broke.

The #1 party who won, its party leader gets to be top dog. Then they make the congress / parliament.

Our 2 party system works like this:

1) Split the public down the middle
2) Start into name calling
3) Demonize other party as some sort of stereotype

And wham! No issues get discussed.

Look at the 2004 election. John Kerry spent all of his time talking about Iraq. So did Bush.

Not one issue of substance was discussed the entire time.

These representatives are actually ACCOUNTABLE to the people. It will be their asses if they fuck up. And oh they're not millionares just because they're in politics (every single rep in the USA).

Yeah, everyone in Washington is a millionaire when they leave. Half of them are millionaires when they start.

And there isn't a way I can see to make them accountable because of the 2 party system because if both do it, we can't win.

/Sigh

[Trickle]

you know, I'm not too big into politics..but this is what I think. as far the the 2008 presidential election goes, John McCain is going to take it. why? because hes white. all southern states want an old white man, and to be honest..I would be way more comfortable with him than suspicious acting Obama. Hilary Clinton wouldn't seem too bad, but she seems like the type of person who would have too much of a singular focus on one issue(healthcare). I personally think that the middle east are a sort of threat(worship allah or die!) and George Bush is making this war slow. I think John McCain will get this done way more efficiently in that hes intelligent and seems like he thought things out well. I voted USA, because in some way in the end..we will be heroes to those individuals who had an unstable system and we will hopefully build McDonalds restaurants around those hungry kids. Lol

[rudl]

The world is not only black and white!!

I' don't support terrorists at all, Us-politics suck. The Usa is not a democracy, it's a two party system. I'm not on someone's side. There is no good side.

[Baker]

The Usa is not a democracy, it's a two party system.

It's a "democracy" in the same way the 1950's automobile market was a "free market" because you could choose between dangerous and unreliable vehicles made by Ford or made by General Motors.

[Fuzznut]

The old people in this country are like the plaque that builds up in arteries causing heart disease.

What?

[Baker]

The old people in this country are like the plaque that builds up in arteries causing heart disease.

We get to watch while the social security system combined with the $40 billion/year prescription plan and Medicare bankrupt this country.

It's really sad.

What?

^^^ The full quote would have been better.

Voting blocks vote for issues that directly matter to them. This is why the upcoming massive Social Security imbalance has not been fixed.

Older voters are not interested in the problems in school systems, problems with the job market or problems financing a college education.

Older voters are concerned with getting their Social Security check, their Medicare and their prescription drug benefits.

There is going to be a perpetual budget crisis within 10 years on the scale that makes the cost of Iraq war look like pennies. There will be a budget shortfall annually of about $1 trillion that increases about 7% per year.