Doom 3 Quake like maps?

[ezzetabi]

See this one.
Shamblers Castle for Doom3 - A Quake 4 mod using the Doom3 engine

I was wondering, why there is much work on Quake One and so little in re-creating the feel of Quake One on technically superior engines?
or I am missing something?

[golden_boy]

Well -

There are monster remodeling projects that produce high poly versions of Q1 monsters. You can find screenshots on this site. But I'm not aware of any finished hi-resolution Q1 monster/items set. As we all know, these projects have a tendency to be never finished.

The Q1 mapping community is relatively conservative; they like the classic look and feel they can get from engines like Fitzquake. A mapper would also possibly have to learn new tools to map and model for a newer engine, but a lot of people really cling to Worldcraft etc. and don't feel the need to switch. Plus, there is the lack of assets and related gamecode.

It is also not common to use high resolution textures etc. among Quake mappers. New features and eyecandy are often seen as unnecessary obstacles. It's clearly not in the culture of Q1 mapping to simply switch to newer tech. Even FTE and Darkplaces are not commonly used in the Q1 mapping scene.

And finally, there would be a large amount of new gamecode needing to be created. Newer engines don't use QuakeC. It would simply be a shitload of work.

Even more finally, creating maps and assets for idtech4 is simply harder and more time intensive than in Quake 1. High poly / low poly versions, baking normal maps etc. Also lighting is done completely differently in idtech4. The Doom 3 engine is also not really well suited for the largeish outdoor areas or the amount of monsters on the screen that you sometimes see in newer Q1 maps / would require much better hardware to run them. Another point, Doom 3 doesn't even have water that you can swim in. The entire game doesn't have real water. Q1 maps potentially have lots of water.

Then there is the copyright issue. To stay at least in the grey area copyright wise, a map/mod using derivatives of Q1 assets (otherwise it wouldn't look like Quake) must pretty much require the original Quake to function, otherwise it *could* be seen as a plagiate. But Quake 1 doesn't even run under newer engines so it would be pointless to require it.

So, technical, financial (time intensive but unpaid work), cultural/ideological, lack of manpower, and possibly legal issues. I think.

The best tech you can use for a Quake mod is probably FTE/Darkplaces, and look how many content creators (don't) use those.

Just my take on it. It's kinda hard to really put the finger on it though. I guess if people wanted that, it would already be happening. Do the math.

[Seven]

I was wondering, why there is much work on Quake One and so little in re-creating the feel of Quake One on technically superior engines?
or I am missing something?

First, what gb said.

Second: "technically superior engines" ? How else would you describe engines like FTE/DP/... ?
They can run almost everything that shambler castle can do.
A fully pimped (make fully use of their extensions) above mentioned engine will look almost like the shambler castle that you describe.

Quake is not Doom3, but mappers have the possibility to make use of the visual that you describe if they want.
Mappers usualy do not want this, because Quake is not Doom3 (just like gb said).
If they want to make a Doom3 map, they do it in Doom3, right ?

I am more than happy with the advanced engines that we have for Quake today.
They are far far far more "technically superior" like the ID1 tech engine was.
Possibilities with now introduced map formats are even breaking the wall and setting the limit even higher.

It is all up to the mapper how his maps will look like and what extensions it uses.
And again, Quake is not Doom3

But I'm not aware of any finished hi-resolution Q1 monster/items set. As we all know, these projects have a tendency to be never finished.

Hello gb,
You surely know Ruohis�s models.
He covers all models except some monsters.
But as we see in current threads, he even is taking the pole and makes the monsters. His quality is very high and always faithful.
I am very sure you know those already. Just wanted to mention it for others.

Best wishes,
Seven

[talisa]

to add to what seven said...

not to mention OoPpEe has also taken the time to port the monster models from that mod over to quake:
http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-mod...axe-added.html

OoPpEe also ported over an enforcer model made by tabun:
http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-mod...-enforcer.html

and OoPpEe also rigged and animated a model by M00 for the grunt and player model:
http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-mod...yer-model.html
http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-mod...n-choices.html

and andrew joll made a very faithfull and amazing looking hi-poly shambler model:
http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-mod...drew-joll.html

and here is the thread seven meant about ruohis monster models:
http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-mod...-monsters.html
he has made scrag, fish, spawn, vore

and just a bit ago ruohis also finished a new hi-poly player model:
http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-mod...yer-model.html

and lastly, lets not forget this beauty... as we speak teamonster is very busy working on an amazing-looking new hi-poly ogre:
http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-mod...tml#post114372

[talisa]

and lastly.... try watching this on 720p ....
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z5Mv5zueqY&feature=plcp[/ame]

a clip i made myself, showing how a fully pimped up quake looks like in darkplaces ; )
looks just as good or, dare i say, even better then doom3 if you ask me : D

[golden_boy]

I'm just thinking about stuff idtech4 can do that FTE/DP can't. There isn't much really, certainly nothing that most Quake maps would use.

Major things I can think of are spline based movers (the monorail, some of the weird machines) and ingame GUIs (touchscreens).

Physics maybe, although DP/FTE support ODE. Portals and gravity shenanigans (Prey uses idtech4) are another thing.

By the way, about the "pimped Quake" videos: These often look messy - too bright, shiny and overdone in appearance - and seem to scream "Look at this effect!" Some more visual understatement and stuff like proper colour combinations wouldn't hurt. Like, intensely red torches with huge flame sprites and glossy green floors don't go together so well. I guess what bugs me about those is mostly the completely overdone lighting and the extreme normalmaps even in cases where the diffuse map simply doesn't justify so much bumpiness.

[Spike]

ezzetabi, people like the simplicity of quake compared to its derivatives.
to achieve things under their own steam, and stuff like that.
porting quake to a more recent engine wouldn't give any advantages, and would take away the feel of what makes quake quake, and not just some D3/Q4/etc mod.

Seven/gb, it really doesn't matter which engine is technically superior or not if there is no clean easily configured mod upon which to base your work. The more advanced q1 engines can do a whole range of things, but if there's no mod actually making use of that then its fundamentally pointless. If you have to code lots of stuff in QC to use lots of extra features, you're really not far off just coding it directly in to the engine.
Technical superiority is irrelevent if you cannot actually use those features that make it superior.

You can do ingame guis using polygons, but its not exactly pleasent as it would likely depend upon polygonoffsets.
You could do a spline-based mover using a movetype_push constantly given new destinations to aproximate the curve.
Portals(warpzones) exist in xonotic.
You can do gravity shenanigans via supplying custom player movement/prediction code, and/or moving things via QC instead of the default movetypes (see csqc, which generally lacks movetype support).

I fully agree with gb's comment about overdoing effects. You'll never get an aesthetic result from just throwing everything at the screen and hoping it doesn't get obscured by everything else.
A classic example is q2's yellow lights. YAY! we can do coloured lighting! EVERYTHING MUST BE COLOURED!!!
That's my opinion, anyway.

[bluntz]

And if you want a players opinion,nothing is as fast as Q1!

[Spike]

faster even than quakeworld with its bunnyhopping for that little bit more speed?

[bluntz]

CTF NQ is still the fastest REALTIME game I know of.QW only appears to be faster because it has prediction like all those supposedly technically superior games.Faked 1/2 second lag does not impress me and I never understood the appeal so many others enjoyed.

[ezzetabi]

Thanks for all answers, but I was not thinking about bringing Quake One and put in Tech4 just because.

I was thinking about the style, what is that make Quake One great? Surely gameplay and physics, but also the weird mixtures of styles in the levels. This last point is something a mapper should be able to bring in other engines...

[Seven]

Hello Spike,

Thank you for your post and very interesting words/thoughts.
I would like to comment some of them.

... The more advanced q1 engines can do a whole range of things, but if there's no mod actually making use of that then its fundamentally pointless.

Yes, that is fully correct I once thought to myself:
"Why are the devs putting more and more features into their engine, if ID1 and custom maps dont make use of them ?"
But beeing a very interested reader of inside3d I quickly learned that these engines are used as base for custom games many times.
DP for example goes into games Nexuiz/Xonotic or Chip�s new game uses it and so on.

For vanilla Quake maps, the power of these engines is used only 20% i think.
But it gives on the other hand the possibility to add many additional replacement things. Which is very welcome for some people.

... If you have to code lots of stuff in QC to use lots of extra features, you're really not far off just coding it directly in to the engine.

Not long ago, I replied to a similar topic, that I would love to (but am not intelligent enough) to do engine coding. There are so many OS-depending things that you must know if you once entered the halls of engine coding, which are complex.
But then I would like to mention a quote from Baker too:
He said, that we should shut up whining and bite our teeth into engine coding if we want to be real men.
Not exaclty his words, but you get the point

...Technical superiority is irrelevent if you cannot actually use those features that make it superior.

That is where I want to mention the "small mod compilation".
I try to bring some extension features into original quake and custom quake maps.
Due to the fact that I am no engine coder I make use of the auto_cvar massively to get at least a breath of engine-flair into the mod.
It is fully up to the individual user if he wants the full breeze or just slight additions.
I myself use not all of the features, but my task was exactly what you said:

"Bring some of the features of more advanced q1 engines into q1 maps"


I think our opinions do not really differ much and I am happy about your post.

============

Thanks for all answers, but I was not thinking about bringing Quake One and put in Tech4 just because.

I was thinking about the style, what is that make Quake One great? Surely gameplay and physics, but also the weird mixtures of styles in the levels. This last point is something a mapper should be able to bring in other engines...

Hello ezzetabi,

If you are looking for more "Quake-ish" maps for the Doom3 engine, there is no way around Doomi�s "In Hell - Directors Cut V.1.1"
This is not just a map, this is a complete adventure in a really wonderful fantasy world, which is many times really "Quake-ish". It�s scope/lenght is as big as original D3 was.
You should try it if you havent yet ! Download + screens

Other maps, that you most probably will like, are:
Pathways Redux by Brendon Chung: Download , screens
HELL ISLAND by David"DaveTheFreak"Scholze: Download + screens

Kind regards,
Seven