Poll: To Cheat-Free or Not Cheat-Free

[LordHavoc]

One thing I like about cheat-free mode is that I know everyone is using a "clean" engine and that no special features are being exploited.

You know that someone told qsecurity.dll to check proquake.exe, you do not know that they are using that engine. This is one of the many flaws in qsecurity.dll.

For example, JoeQuake 0.14 and presumably Qrack have shadow capability where you can sometimes be aware of someone by their shadow that you couldn't see another engine. Maybe DarkPlaces? I don't know.

DarkPlaces could easily get called a wallhack client for all its mapping aids and debugging aids, some of which can be used as cheats (but are not designed for that purpose).

This is however of no consequence on darkplaces hosted servers that utilize the sv_cullentities_trace 1 feature, which makes wallhacks completely useless and reduces network traffic by up to 11x in outdoor maps as dpdm2, note this feature works even with the sv_protocolname QUAKE feature (which serves up normal quake protocol).

I consider server-side prevention of wallhacks to be a better method of 'cheatfree', especially as it reduces network traffic, note this also means that pak2 hacked player models don't show up until they are directly visible, so content hacks can only change the appearance of something, not whether it is visible when it should not be.

This is damage control.

Also, I know that in ProQuake when connected to a cheat-free server that no one can see underwater. I do not know if this is true for, say, DarkPlaces.

Actually that directly relates to whether the server bsp files allow water visibility, it has nothing to do with the engine used as server or as client, if the server does not send entities on the other side of the water surface, then the client does not receive them, and can not display them, hence there is no cheat here.

The worst that can happen is an entire player appears when his head bobs out of the water a little bit, no gameplay impact.

This was a known 'issue' with using glquake with vispatched maps on servers that do not have vispatched maps, it's nothing new.

That said, if the client has vispatched maps, they can get a slight advantage by being able to aim at the cave in e1m4 from the wooden platform, simply because they can see it, even if they don't know if anyone is there - but I do not consider this a significant cheat.

Anyone remember XQuake with the Quad/Pent glows thru walls thing? Perhaps the most hated feature of that engine.

Again, this is prevented by use of the sv_cullentities_trace 1 feature, which can be added to any engine pretty easily.

I think cheat-free servers prevent inadvertent cheating by client advantages -- intentional or not -- that are not readily recognized.

This is very true. Newbies tend to go for a "cheater Quake" (bot) and simply can't connect to cheat-free with one of those or a cheater pak2.

The only 'cheats' that plague Quake are:

• wallhacks, these can be prevented by the sv_cullentities_trace 1 feature. danger: high.
• aimbots, the most blatant wallhacks can be spotted, the subtle ones ('aiming aids' as they're often called, when they use only a small cone of autoaim, and can be turned on/off voluntarily) are basically impossible to detect. (Note: wallhacks are often part of an aimbot client, particularly for tracking people about to come out of a hallway, tracking them until the right moment to fire a rocket and catch them off-guard as they exit the hallway, but this is prevented as mentioned above) danger: extreme.
• textureless maps, these can actually harm a player's spatial awareness due to the lack of texturing and detail, but improve reflexes slightly. danger: low.
• fullbright players/items, these are universally helpful in dark maps, otherwise insignificant. danger: low - maps should not be dark to begin with.
• powerup respawn timers, these are often just modified sound files with a countdown near the time the item would respawn, they help newbies significantly but offer little benefit to veteran players who are already aware of when powerups will respawn. danger: low among veterans, high among newbies.
• straight shaft, this could almost be considered an upgrade, as the normal shaft is silly, but this poses little danger among veterans. danger: low.
• glowing player models with huge spikes sticking out of them in various directions, this poses less of a threat than a full wallhack but is similar in nature, similarly prevented by sv_cullentities_trace 1. danger: high.

My summary is: aimbots are dangerous, wallhacks are preventable, and everything else is minor.

qsecurity.dll does not prevent wallhacks because of the opengl32.dll wallhacks (some of them commercial).

qsecurity.dll does not prevent aimbots because they can be written as opengl32.dll hacks.

qsecurity.dll does prevent pak2 stuff.

qsecurity.dll can be bypassed.

All you can do on the technical side is try to prevent the newbie cheaters from playing with cheats (the determined cheaters are unstoppable), but this usually comes with consequences for the entire community, such as lack of engine diversity, as illustrated by this very discussion.

As I've said before, cheating is a social problem, not a technical one, ban cheaters for their actions, don't restrict everyone else.

Furthermore there are griefers (determined to ruin the game) and trolls (determined to spam the game with retarded messages, often hate speech), these can not be prevented by technical means, they can only be banned.

[Baker]

qsecurity.dll does not prevent wallhacks because of the opengl32.dll wallhacks (some of them commercial) ...

All you can do on the technical side is try to prevent the newbie cheaters from playing with cheats (the determined cheaters are unstoppable), but this usually comes with consequences for the entire community, such as lack of engine diversity, as illustrated by this very discussion.

I think the best short-term solution is to see if the admin one of the 2 main DM servers can be persuaded into dropping the cheat-free and then see what happens.

I know ra.clanhdz.com (rocket arena) used to be cheat-free and all that did was discourage people from playing there.

Maybe Yellow could persuade Vis to make dm.clanhdz.com non-cheat-free (it is on the same box as Rage) and see if more play there because they can use DarkPlaces or Qrack or whatever engine they prefer.

Long-term I wish every internet-worthy engine[*] (DarkPlaces, JoeQuake, Qrack, ProQuake) reported to the server what engine it is similar to how ProQuake reports the version number to the server (if someone connects to Rage, it will say "Baker connected with ProQuake 3.50" but if it is DarkPlaces or JoeQuake it will just say "Baker connected with a non-ProQuake client."

Yes that wouldn't be "secure" or anything, but the old crappy bot engines aren't coded for that and any engine that didn't report a version could be excluded from connecting.

[*] If an engine isn't NAT fixed, meaning if it sits there with "Connection Accepted" and does nothing behind an NAT router, to me those engines aren't internet worthy which is why only DarkPlaces, JoeQuake, Qrack and ProQuake are on my list. I consider that I severe defect in winquake/glquake.

[LordHavoc]

[*] If an engine isn't NAT fixed, meaning if it sits there with "Connection Accepted" and does nothing behind an NAT router, to me those engines aren't internet worthy which is why only DarkPlaces, JoeQuake, Qrack and ProQuake are on my list. I consider that I severe defect in winquake/glquake.

It's worth noting the NAT fix is in the server, not the client, and as far as I know JoeQuake and Qrack are rarely used as servers.

Any client can connect to a NAT-fixed server.

[Baker]

It's worth noting the NAT fix is in the server, not the client, and as far as I know JoeQuake and Qrack are rarely used as servers.

Any client can connect to a NAT-fixed server.

IHOC is the only server running a server-side NAT fix. DarkPlaces, ProQuake 3.40+, Qrack and JoeQuake can effortlessly connect to any server (almost all are ProQuake servers) even if the client is behind an NAT router, but engines like FitzQuake or vanilla glquake.exe cannot.

I'm not sure where the code is or how it works but it seems to be in the client side:

1. ProQuake 3.40 and 3.50 have the NAT fix; ProQuake 3.30 and below do not.

2. The first ever time I emailed Jozsef Szalontai back in 2003 I asked for this feature and he added it.

I'm not an engine coder but I know that JoeQuake 0.13A and ProQuake 3.20 clients get the "Connection Accepted" problem but JoeQuake 0.13B and ProQuake 3.50 don't.

And, just as another example, FTEQW isn't NAT-fixed (for NQ) whereas DarkPlaces is.

I have done a lot of experiments in the past on this particular problem and although I don't have the slightest understanding of the engine coding, this used to be a major problem which has almost been completely eradicated.

An example:

Tried it, looks nice, but for some reason, winquake would accept the connection to your server, but would go no further than saying connection accepted. I tried putting the pballarena.bsp into the id1 folder, even restarted winquake, still wouldn't work.

http://forums.inside3d.com/viewtopic...light=proquake

/JoeQuake and Qrack aren't used as servers anywhere that I know, although Rage runs sort of a Qrack server but I think that is a (more and more heavily) modified ProQuake server by Rook.

[Canadian*Sniper]

I would like to add that whitehot.quakeone.com has been using sv_cullentities_trace 1;
thanks to LordHavoc suggesting it via email

• powerup respawn timers, these are often just modified sound files with a countdown near the time the item would respawn, they help newbies significantly but offer little benefit to veteran players who are already aware of when powerups will respawn. danger: low among veterans, high among newbies.

Clever

[scar3crow]

Originally Posted by scar3crow View Post
You know why new players cheat? Because they get smacked down mercilessly rather than trained.

Originally Posted by =peg= View Post
very good point!

No that isn't a good point -- at all. The players that go for a cheat tend to be the ones that refuse to accept that playing well requires practice and experimentation.

You ignored the second part of what I said, and assumed there isnt a gradient in personality types either. Cheaters will cheat as they will, others are driven towards cheating when they get frustrated - which can happen at different times, and one of the ways to minimize this incident is to be kind to the less skilled players and offer them advice. If they refuse it, they refuse it, but dont dismiss all new players based upon your experience.

We must always be willing to reach out and help others in any field, be it Quake or anything else, and if they resist... so be it. This is the social problem.

It is more than cheaters and non-cheaters, especially among the new people.

[LordHavoc]

Clever

Powerup respawn timers are far from new, xUx (Unforgiven Gunmen - not to be confused with clan GUN) was accused of using them in the WWII CTF tourney in 1998, I don't know if they did or did not, but I don't consider it a significant cheat, honestly I wouldn't mind if a mod specifically added them in its official client pack, as it would give newbies a boost.

(and penalizing newbies for lack of experience is never a good thing for the growth of a community

[Baker]

You ignored the second part of what I said, and assumed there isnt a gradient in personality types either. Cheaters will cheat as they will, others are driven towards cheating when they get frustrated - which can happen at different times, and one of the ways to minimize this incident is to be kind to the less skilled players and offer them advice. If they refuse it, they refuse it, but dont dismiss all new players based upon your experience.

We must always be willing to reach out and help others in any field, be it Quake or anything else, and if they resist... so be it. This is the social problem.

It is more than cheaters and non-cheaters, especially among the new people.

I didn't mean new players, I meant those that cheat.

I think those that believe that others are cheating are the ones that are the most likely to cheat.

In my experience, most (but not all) of the ones that believe others are cheating are ones who you try to help a few times and they just don't want to listen; they want to play their way and if their way doesn't work they think it is YOUR FAULT they lose not THEIR FAULT.

Maybe they only use the keyboard, maybe they don't strafe, maybe they don't have weapon switching keys, maybe they use low mouse sensitivity and default FOV -- Sorry, but a lousy setup is just not going to work and over time others and myself have tried to help these various players (the ones who think everyone is cheating) and eventually you realize it is a waste of time.

And of course I believe in helping new players learn new the game, I'm referring only to the 2% that are serial troublemakers -- which are not new players for the most part.

[=peg=]

/agrees with both scar3crow and baker

[LordHavoc]

Perhaps a mod should be made that helps newbies in minor ways and adds some other nice features, it would be run on one or more servers, and would have the following changes:

• damage feedback sound (ala Q3)
• straight shaft model (this would be stored as progs/beam.mdl so it would not directly work a hack on normal dm servers, thus having this mod's pak installed in id1 would not interfere with proquake in any way)
• powerup respawn announcements (played throughout the level as an announcer voice)
• double/triple/etc kill announcements
• killing spree announcements
• a pack of good dm maps (to get people off the id maps now and then
• use of sv_cullentities_trace 1 on servers (so wallhacks and pak2 cheats would be useless).

Ideally most of these servers would run darkplaces with sv_protocolname QUAKE so anyone could download the client pack and play (and darkplaces clients would be able to auto-download the files).

Ideally this would also integrate admin menus and match mode and so on, but that's secondary to the damage feedback and other experimental features.

Basically this mod would make Quake a little easier to play and have some modern features but have the same gameplay, it would help out newbies, and veterans might prefer it as well (damage feedback is a very nice feature, and announcements of multikills and killing sprees can be entertaining for those who like fancy frags).

[=peg=]

sounds cool to me

[Canadian*Sniper]

killing spree announcements

I was thinking of adding "Double Kill", "Killing Spree", and "Royal Riot" announcements in whitehot. But I'd have to ask the public first as I see whitehot as the public's mod Making a mod that they don't agree with is no fun for me.

[Solecord]

If you really want a cheatfree dm server, why not just have whoever is hosting dm.quakeone.com just convert it to pure dm? You said no one ever plays there anyway so what's the difference? Stick the dm+ mod on a different port or just store the code away and bring it back in the future if wanted.

[scar3crow]

* damage feedback sound (ala Q3)
* straight shaft model (this would be stored as progs/beam.mdl so it would not directly work a hack on normal dm servers, thus having this mod's pak installed in id1 would not interfere with proquake in any way)
* powerup respawn announcements (played throughout the level as an announcer voice)
* double/triple/etc kill announcements
* killing spree announcements
* a pack of good dm maps (to get people off the id maps now and then
* use of sv_cullentities_trace 1 on servers (so wallhacks and pak2 cheats would be useless).

You went back to 1999 and stole this from Willit's .plan file didnt you? It just struck me how... all of this looks like a combination of Q3A and UT...

Baker - Im not saying youre wrong, I think we just focused in different directions on the subject matter. And Ive been in a pissy mood lately anyways.

[Baker]

If you really want a cheatfree dm server, why not just have whoever is hosting dm.quakeone.com just convert it to pure dm? You said no one ever plays there anyway so what's the difference? Stick the dm+ mod on a different port or just store the code away and bring it back in the future if wanted.

Yeah dm.quakeone.com almost never gets play, but considering dm.clanhdz.com which is on the same server almost never gets play and already is pure DM, why not de-cheat-free dm.clanhdz.com if Vis will do that.