Quake vs QuakeWorld

[Zalon]

Hello fellow Quakers!

I was just browsing this forum as I often do, and since I was working on the media section of qw.nu I ended up at a topic about the release of Dag Def Extreme 3

On the second page of that discussion it changes into a bit of Quake vs QuakeWorld drama, and it got me wondering... Why do some people prefer Quake over QuakeWorld?

I know, the same question goes for QW players, why do we stick with QW, when we could be playing Quake Live, as it got a larger playerbase, etc etc. However, QL differs a lot more from QW than QW does from NQ (Don't know if I'm allowed to call it that here ).

Now, I'll personally keep playing QW as long as there is someone to play against, and I'm sure that the same goes for you guys in regards to NQ. But with the limited differences between the two variants of Quake, I would definitely play NQ if QW was totally dead, and NQ was not.

I know that this site is kind of a mashup of Single Player and Multiplayer, so I'm sure that a lot of you play Quake because it's the most pure version for the single player experience.

So my question is more towards the players who plays multiplayer deathmatch, and no, this is not me trying to promote QW over Quake, or in someway a bashing of Quake. It's just me being curious to why you prefer your version over ours

[wicked_lord]

Quake exsisted before QW was ever thought of. So its what im accustom too. Been playing it since its beta release. Ive tried qw. The physics kill the game imo. Also QW was designed to help the HPB level of game play.. now with almost everyone on broadband qw is no need. But most got usef to the physics and stayed with qw.

[Mr.Burns]

Hi zalon

Welcome to Netquake . I must admit I've not really invested a lot of time in testing QW (no offence spike) as I made the following observations from the little I have played:

• As Wicked has already aluded to, QW seemed to have a very different "feel" to the movement, I'm not sure if this was due to the changed physics but it took a lot of adjustment from what I'm used to and this seemed to detract from the game (a little).
• The gameplay on the particular server seemed a little too "frag at all costs" for my liking (but that may have been just my perception). True you also get that with some NQ players but personally I just play a sporting game for fun with likeminded players (pol, Peg, Jer, Henry, Fuzzy, etc).
• I've always been a little unsure as to what this "prediction" is that is so often mentioned. I'm a bit anal about playing fairly and squarely and not having any form of player aids so I'd be interested to hear just what this is all about as the initial concept certainly didn't attract me.

On the plus side the clients looked good, even on my antique rig, had lots of features including a well populated server browser and was problem free to install and connect to a game. So +1 gold star to Spike

/* Just my humble opinion....
Personally, with a limited playerbase I would hope that there will soon be meeting of the minds such as Spike, Baker, MH, Rook and LH with a view to enabling QW and NQ players to use their usual clients to view and play on both kinds of servers seemlessly, adjusting to the server type automatically. Obviously there should be a "you are joining a QW server " health warning first
I don't know if this is ever likely to happen as I suspect it may not be an attractive proposition to the engine coders, or even if it is technically possible but in terms of picking up games and keeping the game going it could be a good thing if done properly
End of humble opinion */

Kind regards

Monty

[Spike]

@Mr.Burns
You can set up a qtv proxy to connect through. This enables an NQ client to connect to a QW server, or to view a qtv game/mvd demo. However its an extra layer of awkwardness as you first need to connect to the proxy THEN connect to the game.
I did have a go at getting an NQ client connect via an in-process version of the proxy so its basically transparent (by implementing the proxy as an alternative option to the udp/ipx driver already in most nq engines), but the NQ engine authors need to add this stuff to their own engines.
I'm not going to lie, it can be improved, but the core functionality is there.

FTE should already be able to host games for both protocols, and connect to games using either protocol. DP also can connect to either game, but can only host using a single protocol (generally its own).

@Zalon
I would imagine that a large part of it would be down to mod support, the communities that keep you playing one over the other, and that quakeworld is not technically quake and thus generally not the first that people try.
Also, NQ engines tend to be much more faithful to quake by default (like the lack of bunnyhopping and general appearance), which I expect leaves people feeling that QW is 'wrong', compared to what they're used to. Uncanny valley and all that.

[Mr.Burns]

...FTE should already be able to host games for both protocols, and connect to games using either protocol...

Thanks for responding Spike, I was in discussion with a much more knowledgeable player than myself recently and the ability to "advertise" servers to both communities seemed to be a very attractive proposition. So you've kindly outlined the NQ client ---> QW server connections but just to be clear, if we theoretically ran for example a DP/Proquake engined server what would be required to advertise the server to QW players and allow them to connect using the clients they are familiar with?

You mentioned a potential limitation on mod support. Do you happen to know if FTE supports running servers for Runequake, Painkeep (I know PK supports QW)? CRMod and Deathmatch Plus?

My apologies Zalon, I had no intention of slightly derailing your first thread thread and am feeling guilty for unintentially doing so [Shame Mode on ] , it was just an interesting bi-product of the discussion and might be worth exploring if it could help foster a better relationshp between the 2 communities. Others, please feel free to chip in here with your views on Zalon's question

Kind regards

Monty

[Spike]

Mr.Burns:
Notice that qtv supports mvd/qtv->nq and qw->nq but not nq->qw.
Thus if you want a proquake server listed to QW clients, your QW client first needs to understand the NQ protocol. FTE does. ZQuake has an nqconnect command to connect, as I believe ezquake also does, but other QW clients do not.
FTE's server browser pokes a few NQ master servers, including servers.quakeone.com, so if its listed on this site, it'll be listed in FTE, so for FTE's sake its already done. For DP, you'd need to list the server on at least one of the dpmaster servers that DP checks. For zquake/ezquake, I really have no idea. Either way, they require an 'nqconnect' command to connect to an NQ server and thus simply adding your NQ server to the QW master servers cannot work. Really this is a general problem for the NQ protocol, and its lack of a well-defined master server protocol.

FTE should generally be able to run any NQ mod which does not a) depend upon qccx hacks, just like DP. Use extensions instead. b) depend upon entity ordering (sv_nomsec 2 can fix that). c) does not use too exotic writebytes. Use builtins/extensions instead.
You will usually get QW physics from FTE running an NQ mod, even with NQ clients to keep things fair. Use pm_bunnyspeedcap 1 to disable bunnyhopping if you wish to do so.

Note that pm_bunnyspeedcap exists in both mvdsv and fte, and if set will throttle bunnyhopping. You can still rocketjump for extra speed, but you'll loose it again when you turn around corners. Its not quite authentic NQ physics, but it kills all bunnyhopping and should remove that point of contention - at least for the NQ players, QW players will moan like crazy that they can't bunnyhop on that QW server...

Either way, the main problem with large changes is that people hate them. You can't force everyone to play the way you/'the community' want. And trying to force them risks splitting the community and loosing members entirely.

[Mr.Burns]

Either way, the main problem with large changes is that people hate them. You can't force everyone to play the way you/'the community' want. And trying to force them risks splitting the community and loosing members entirely.

I agree completely. That was the main point of my question, to see what is possible so at least we have the facts before deciding on any course of action. Thanks for the info Spike - interesting reading to say the least, and you cleared up at least 2 questions that were raised outside of this thread. Much obliged


[Mr.Burns leaves the room stage right - Spotlight now well and truly back on Zalon ]

Kind regards
Monty

[Mindf!3ldzX]

Hello fellow Quakers!

I was just browsing this forum as I often do, and since I was working on the media section of qw.nu I ended up at a topic about the release of Dag Def Extreme 3

On the second page of that discussion it changes into a bit of Quake vs QuakeWorld drama, and it got me wondering... Why do some people prefer Quake over QuakeWorld?

I know, the same question goes for QW players, why do we stick with QW, when we could be playing Quake Live, as it got a larger playerbase, etc etc. However, QL differs a lot more from QW than QW does from NQ (Don't know if I'm allowed to call it that here ).

Now, I'll personally keep playing QW as long as there is someone to play against, and I'm sure that the same goes for you guys in regards to NQ. But with the limited differences between the two variants of Quake, I would definitely play NQ if QW was totally dead, and NQ was not.

I know that this site is kind of a mashup of Single Player and Multiplayer, so I'm sure that a lot of you play Quake because it's the most pure version for the single player experience.

So my question is more towards the players who plays multiplayer deathmatch, and no, this is not me trying to promote QW over Quake, or in someway a bashing of Quake. It's just me being curious to why you prefer your version over ours

NetQuake, Clan Arena , 5-0's I tried Quake Live, and detested it.Perochi convinced me to re-install it,and I played a handful of games.(and fell to my death a few hundred times,wtf they butchered the Q3 map) My rocketlauncher feels more like a Nerf Launcher.

[monoz]

I would like to see some Q3/QL multiplayer maps ported to NQ

[Mindf!3ldzX]

I would like to see some Q3/QL multiplayer maps ported to NQ

I really really enjoy the CTF space map with "symmetry".

Warzone = symmetry
Red Alert = Symmetry
These are the maps that I think are the most awesome.I'll play CTF anything except matchmode, I even play CTF on FN Dirt3 the car game w00h00.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ8G2g_RTds]DiRT 3 Capture the Flag Gameplay - YouTube[/ame] and I rock at it too,obv.

[golden_boy]

There are already Q3 (and Q2) multiplayer maps ported to Q1.

TBH for me as a level designer, making multiplayer maps for Q1 is extremely unattractive, because no one plays them. Everybody wants to play DM3, in the case of QW they also play it with pink textures. Multiplayer people have no appreciation for pretty visuals, lighting or details (in the case of QW, I believe some even use fulbright or lego quake settings), which again makes it pointless to create those, which takes the fun out of mapping.

And I can't create any trickmaps because I myself can not test them - I'm a level designer, not a speedrunner.

Than made a gorgeous remake of DM3, and not even that found any players. It's pearls before swine.

[Baker]

Hi Zalon.

Back in the darkest days of NetQuake, I tried to convert to Quakeworld. Which is why I accumulated a rather significant number of Quakeworld friends (viva diversity).

And I gave Quakeworld a more than fair shot. And I often enjoyed playing Quakeworld, grew to admire the Quakeworld community (i.e., how you guys work together, NetQuake still tends to fight against itself here in the USA), etc.

There isn't a way to relate this: have you played NetQuake multiplayer?

I know this is heresy for me to ask this, but I bet if you played 10 games on the Bigfoot server (Zalon is European, obv) you might ask yourself why you prefer Quakeworld. (if you can adapt to the lack of the "easy" bunny).

I'm just saying, NetQuake feels better. If someone's ping is bad, Quakeworld does work better, but this isn't the modern age.

[Mr.Burns]

Hi Zalon....I know this is heresy for me to ask this, but I bet if you played 10 games on the Bigfoot server (Zalon is European, obv) you might ask yourself why you prefer Quakeworld. (if you can adapt to the lack of the "easy" bunny)....

I would recommend playing people like Peg, Polarite, Dude and Jer somewhat later in the evening for a more positive experience.

Kind regards

Monty

[Zalon]

have you played NetQuake multiplayer?

Yeah, we used to play NetQuake on LAN back in the day, at school etc. But we quickly moved to QW as that was what people played online, and what was used at LAN tournaments etc.

I know this is heresy for me to ask this, but I bet if you played 10 games on the Bigfoot server (Zalon is European, obv) you might ask yourself why you prefer Quakeworld. (if you can adapt to the lack of the "easy" bunny)....

Hehe, I know why I play QW, the main reason is the community, apart from that, it's what I "started" playing. Since the NetQuake community is kinda non-existent in Europe, there really isn't much that would attract me to NetQuake today.

But as I wrote in my original post, if there were no active QW scene in Europe and NetQuake had one, I would probably be playing NetQuake.

However, I was mostly interested in hearing why you guys play NetQuake, and not why I do not

[Mindf!3ldzX]

Yeah, we used to play NetQuake on LAN back in the day, at school etc. But we quickly moved to QW as that was what people played online, and what was used at LAN tournaments etc.


Hehe, I know why I play QW, the main reason is the community, apart from that, it's what I "started" playing. Since the NetQuake community is kinda non-existent in Europe, there really isn't much that would attract me to NetQuake today.

But as I wrote in my original post, if there were no active QW scene in Europe and NetQuake had one, I would probably be playing NetQuake.

However, I was mostly interested in hearing why you guys play NetQuake, and not why I do not

I'll break this down short and sweet

NetQuake = NFL and you're the Quaterback, Throwing the ball to "WHERE THE GUY IS" = INCOMPLETE PASS. Imagine you're about to throw the ball to a wide reciever, understand you gotta over-throw to compensate the distance the reciever has TRAVELED from the time you throw the ball ,and during the balls flight time,and it lands in the recievers ARMS where you PREDICTED he would end up being.

If you can understand THAT above,then whats below will make much more sense.....


NetQuake = The Original Package
-Lead your aim requirement.
-Shooting where your opponent currently IS = possibility of MISS
-Opponents in motion make it more 'realistic' in the fact that just because I aimed at you and pushed the button does not mean I hit you.
-Real opponents don't stand still (This is how PREDICTION in QW acts to me, if you was "Where my crosshair was when I pushed the button" = A HIT???? Complete bullshit.