reskinned enforcers...

[yhe1]

Does anyone know how many versions of reskinned enforcers there have been? and has any one tried making base maps with enforcers from different sources (Zer, Quoth2, etc...)?

[Baker]

lunsp1 has the best ones in my opinion and has the source code too in the lunsp1 download.

The Zerstorer ones have shields though.

You should play Forwards Compatible, the ending bad guy is a SNG wielding red enforcer. The source code is included in that as well.

[yhe1]

lunsp1 has the best ones in my opinion and has the source code too in the lunsp1 download.

The Zerstorer ones have shields though.

You should play Forwards Compatible, the ending bad guy is a SNG wielding red enforcer. The source code is included in that as well.

I read on the UnderWorldFan that his attack is bugged, and that he can't hit the player?

[Baker]

I read on the UnderWorldFan that his attack is bugged, and that he can't hit the player?

Well, let's say that's true.

It's open source so it isn't like that couldn't be changed.

[yhe1]

Well, let's say that's true.

It's open source so it isn't like that couldn't be changed.

Has there been any Maps which feature both the Mega Enforcers and the Quoth ones?

[metchsteekle]

hmm

maybe in hondo bondo's spdm duke nukem vs. the world

[Baker]

Has there been any Maps which feature both the Mega Enforcers and the Quoth ones?

Well, Quoth isn't open source so no.

But although I haven't looked, I'm pretty sure they are just reskins so you could add the Quoth skin into the the enforcer.mdl using QME.

[golden_boy]

You can't easily mix other stuff with Quoth.

If you ripped the enforcer reskins from Quoth, the mapping community would burn you at the stake for heresy I guess. If you happen to not care about that, legally it should be no problem, because the Quoth enforcers are of course based on id's as are Zerst�rer's and the rest.

Guncotton also has an enforcer reskin IIRC.

To my knowledge there is no map that collects them all, but of course you could make your own enforcer model with all those skins, then get any GPL base map, and on any Enforcer in the map, add a "skin" key and give it a value of "skin number". This would let you select the different skins.

You could also just use Quoth AND your own enforcer.mdl with additional skins plus the above method.

If you also wanted different attacks, you'd have to hack the QC (use your own mod). But then you run into the issue that Quoth is closed source.

Closed source Quake mods are theoretically possible because the Quake source (qc source) was released twice, once under an id license (I guess) and the second time under GPL (along with the tools). I don't know how the law is in such a case. I'd say that id clearly intended the qc to be under GPL, since that was the license used for the latest release, but you can always say "I used the old non-GPL release as a base for this mod" and since you don't have the source, and certain mods can't be decompiled because of compiler optimisations (and decompiling wouldn't be so enlightening either), you'll never really know.

Anyway, it's a bit ... unusual to not release your QC source these days. It's not rocket science, you know. Most entities exist in other (open source) mods already, like Custents and Extras, or are well documented in tutorials, or are simply taken from the mission packs, which are open source, too. So there's nothing arcane to it. Only thing you can't find elsewhere are the monsters, but coding new monsters isn't really witchcraft, either.

As we say in German, roughly translated, "they, too, only cook with water".

gb

[yhe1]

You can't easily mix other stuff with Quoth.

If you ripped the enforcer reskins from Quoth, the mapping community would burn you at the stake for heresy I guess. If you happen to not care about that, legally it should be no problem, because the Quoth enforcers are of course based on id's as are Zerst�rer's and the rest.

Guncotton also has an enforcer reskin IIRC.

To my knowledge there is no map that collects them all, but of course you could make your own enforcer model with all those skins, then get any GPL base map, and on any Enforcer in the map, add a "skin" key and give it a value of "skin number". This would let you select the different skins.

You could also just use Quoth AND your own enforcer.mdl with additional skins plus the above method.

If you also wanted different attacks, you'd have to hack the QC (use your own mod). But then you run into the issue that Quoth is closed source.

Closed source Quake mods are theoretically possible because the Quake source (qc source) was released twice, once under an id license (I guess) and the second time under GPL (along with the tools). I don't know how the law is in such a case. I'd say that id clearly intended the qc to be under GPL, since that was the license used for the latest release, but you can always say "I used the old non-GPL release as a base for this mod" and since you don't have the source, and certain mods can't be decompiled because of compiler optimisations (and decompiling wouldn't be so enlightening either), you'll never really know.

Anyway, it's a bit ... unusual to not release your QC source these days. It's not rocket science, you know. Most entities exist in other (open source) mods already, like Custents and Extras, or are well documented in tutorials, or are simply taken from the mission packs, which are open source, too. So there's nothing arcane to it. Only thing you can't find elsewhere are the monsters, but coding new monsters isn't really witchcraft, either.

As we say in German, roughly translated, "they, too, only cook with water".

gb

Well, I ask because I noticed there isn't many Quake maps that are "outdoor military", kind of like the Return to Castle Wolfenstein style. Most of them are like Doom 3, slow and dark.

[golden_boy]

The fact there aren't many large outdoor maps with lots of monsters in them is partly engine related. Bigger areas = lower FPS, and more monsters = edict limit, packet overflow. Faster machines can counter the FPS loss somewhat, and modded engines have higher limits, but there is also a problem with building the map. "Castle of the Dark Ages" is very outdoor-like, with walkable roofs etc., but took unbelievably long to vis. 50 days or something. This is just a huge PITA (remember you also have to build the map continually for testing.) Quake simply isn't the game for that.

Indoor areas, corridors etc. = higher FPS, short distance between player and monsters, short ways between player and items, short build times, less pain for everybody.

Ranged combat is also a problem in Quake. You have no rifles etc., but mostly projectile weapons. Quake doesn't have many "hitscan" type enemies, so distance is a limiting factor in combat. Most monsters are pretty useless at a greater distance.

Same goes for player weapons. Rocket launcher or nailgun at great distance = good chance for target to dodge; shotguns at distance = huge spread; shaft = 600 units limit, iirc (that's the size of a medium room in Quake). A railgun or sniper rifle would work, but we have none.

So there are technical limits as well as movement and combat problems in larger maps (lots of running around to get items/find enemies, projectile weapons, limited monster range). Unmodded Quake is simply a fast run and gun game, and when you make everything larger, you run into problems.

In typical indoor areas, IMO the gameplay is rather fast. Sadly, the monsters are stupid and most of them aren't really a threat, so you resort to horde combat if you want a challenge or wear the player down somehow (sniping, less health/ammo, pure numbers). More modern mods often have monster variants with higher damage, and maps don't give so much health and ammo, but that can get tedious.

For Remake (example), there are plans to do at least one storm-the-castle style map with a bigger outdoor area, and a base map just being overrun by monsters. But all those limits apply, hence it can only be approximated. The more monsters you have attacking in an area, the more stuff is flying through the air etc, gibs, projectiles, particles, dynamic lights for example, and it just bogs the game down. Knights are a pretty ideal mass attack monster, since they have no ranged attack and hence the amount of crap is relatively low. Replace 100 knights with 100 enforcers, and you have all these projectiles. Enforcers with nailguns, plasma guns, flame throwers, rocket launchers... even worse. They create a huge chaos that the poor engine has to render. It wasn't made for that. A stock engine will just crash.

[yhe1]

The fact there aren't many large outdoor maps with lots of monsters in them is partly engine related. Bigger areas = lower FPS, and more monsters = edict limit, packet overflow. Faster machines can counter the FPS loss somewhat, and modded engines have higher limits, but there is also a problem with building the map. "Castle of the Dark Ages" is very outdoor-like, with walkable roofs etc., but took unbelievably long to vis. 50 days or something. This is just a huge PITA (remember you also have to build the map continually for testing.) Quake simply isn't the game for that.

Indoor areas, corridors etc. = higher FPS, short distance between player and monsters, short ways between player and items, short build times, less pain for everybody.

Ranged combat is also a problem in Quake. You have no rifles etc., but mostly projectile weapons. Quake doesn't have many "hitscan" type enemies, so distance is a limiting factor in combat. Most monsters are pretty useless at a greater distance.

Same goes for player weapons. Rocket launcher or nailgun at great distance = good chance for target to dodge; shotguns at distance = huge spread; shaft = 600 units limit, iirc (that's the size of a medium room in Quake). A railgun or sniper rifle would work, but we have none.

So there are technical limits as well as movement and combat problems in larger maps (lots of running around to get items/find enemies, projectile weapons, limited monster range). Unmodded Quake is simply a fast run and gun game, and when you make everything larger, you run into problems.

In typical indoor areas, IMO the gameplay is rather fast. Sadly, the monsters are stupid and most of them aren't really a threat, so you resort to horde combat if you want a challenge or wear the player down somehow (sniping, less health/ammo, pure numbers). More modern mods often have monster variants with higher damage, and maps don't give so much health and ammo, but that can get tedious.

For Remake (example), there are plans to do at least one storm-the-castle style map with a bigger outdoor area, and a base map just being overrun by monsters. But all those limits apply, hence it can only be approximated. The more monsters you have attacking in an area, the more stuff is flying through the air etc, gibs, projectiles, particles, dynamic lights for example, and it just bogs the game down. Knights are a pretty ideal mass attack monster, since they have no ranged attack and hence the amount of crap is relatively low. Replace 100 knights with 100 enforcers, and you have all these projectiles. Enforcers with nailguns, plasma guns, flame throwers, rocket launchers... even worse. They create a huge chaos that the poor engine has to render. It wasn't made for that. A stock engine will just crash.

Isn't the grunt's rifle a hit scan weapon? What about a more powerful grunt as a type of sniper/riflemen? There would also be less stuff to render.

[golden_boy]

Yes, approximately. The grunt fires very fast projectiles, so in effect his shotgun is practically behaving like a hitscan attack.

There is some spread, but in stock Quake grunts are pretty effective at a distance. The other monster that's halfway effective at range is the vore, because of the homing projectiles. Same goes for Quoth's Rocketeer. You could have a battlefield map with rifle grunts, railgun enforcers, plus some sort of artillery or splash damage enemy to make it more interesting. You'd want to keep the number of gibs and particles low, perhaps using sprites for explosions etc. You'd also have to increase the falloff distance for sounds. If a grunt is far enough away, you don't even hear the shot. This happens sooner than you would expect.

The problem is that lots of sniping grunts tend to be frustrating for the player, same for vores at a distance. This is mostly because the player doesn't have good weapons to counter (slow projectiles, no sniper sight). You can zoom in Quake, but it's not really an option when you have a bunch of rottweilers in your neck.

Plus, the grunts don't aim very well, but at least they aim relatively well constantly, and are not afraid to die (ie stupid), while the player gets more and more frustrated. If the grunts had rifles, railguns or something, the balance would be totally off, unless you give the player a sniper rifle and the ability to hide, sneak and dodge. And then you have Counter-Strike with stupid monsters.

The main problem for Omaha Beach style maps in Quake is the gigantic vis time and the low FPS/engine limits stuff though. Someone has to make the map and slog through the compiling and endless testing. The more varied and interesting you make the terrain, the more impossible the vis/r_speeds situation gets. It's simply a technical limit. And the more extreme you make the fighting, ie explosions, blood, smoke, rapid fire weapons, the sooner the engine just quits. Not to mention the total lack of teamplay and general AI. For typical combat scenarios, you'd want teammates and halfway smart opponents. That just doesn't exist in Quake.

Quake is simply best when you're in a cramped, simplistic dungeon and monsters get in your face with chainsaws, and splash damage and projectiles just create some kind of blanket effect. It's not really a deliberate choice on the part of the mapper, it's what the technology does best.

[Dooomer]

well said, golden boy!

[yhe1]

I have another question and I'll just ask it here. Is the customer monsters and weapons created by Kona or Necros open source? Can they still be used to make maps?

Are there any plans to make Quoth open source? A half Quoth and Half Soul of evil episode would be great.

[golden_boy]

First, I am not a lawyer, and this is no legal advice.

If monsters are simply modifications of id's/hipnotic's/Rogue's models/skins (like black shamblers or blue fiends, or pink gremlins, or hellknights with lightning, or reskinned warhammers), you can reuse them because whoever modified them doesn't have more rights to them than you do. They are still id's. It's also common practice to do so.

If someone created a completely new skin or model, from scratch (like Quoth's Gaunt or Gug or the plasma gun), then you need their permission.

Most such mods will be accompanied by a text file which contains this information. Often the QC source will be included, too. If it's not, you have a problem.

To reuse a monster, you would need the corresponding QC source, although you can theoretically write your own, if you can take that much pain. This is much easier for weapons than for monsters, of course. Thus when you rip a monster from somewhere, you'll want the QC, which you'll only get if the mod includes the source, or you ask the friendly author, normally by e-mail.

I just checked n3sp03, ne_sp06, Rapture, Guncotton, and oum (on a whim) because I was also interested, and predictably all of them include modified content, but not the source. Guncotton's readme even says that "you may not use this level as a base to build additional levels", which is a bit funny, since both its monsters and textures use other people's content, and what's more, there are no .map files, so the possibility of someone doing just that is hypothetical. ;-)

A Quake monster or weapon consists of the model (and possibly headmodel), skin, and QC code.

To my knowledge, there are no plans to make Quoth open source. However, it can't hurt to e-mail the authors with what you want to do and see if you can get permission.

Nsoe (Indian Summer) is open source, and it includes a lot of new stuff. For custom map entities, like moving water etc., the mods "Custents" and "Extras" are where it's at (both open source). They have much of the stuff that Quoth has, minus the monsters.

For monsters, look at the mods "Cranked", "Dragons2008", the mission packs, Nehahra, Zerstorer, and lots of smaller mods. All of those are open source. Apart from that, it's not hard at all to create a nail ogre or a shotgun enforcer, just ask at Inside3d. It's also not very hard to recolor their skins.

You might inform the author, if he/she is still around, or you might not, but in any case you should give credit (blue fiend by so-and-so).

Good tutorials are at inside3d and gobs of old mods and content are here:

Index of /pub/idgames2
Quake Archive

Just read the .txt file next to every mod to decide if you want to try it.

It's not technically hard to have a couple grunt, enforcer, ogre and hellknight variations, plus new map entities etc., just a *lot* of work.

So, probably no to both questions. You could probably rip the skins (if they are that good as to warrant it) and code your own nail grunts etc. though. You could also mail the authors of these older mods and ask for the source - good luck