DarkPlaces vs. GLPRO Conversion Poll

[Baker]

glpro's cheat-free is only serving as a means to exclude other client quake engines from joining. The real reason we want cheatfree (I sure hope it is) is to reduce cheats.

This has never been phrased better.

I can see this thread ending with a "Well guess what? DP already has these features so what are you waiting for?"

I've talked with some real players and if the thread ends on that note I think this thread will be a failure.

Usually it goes almost exactly like this:

1. A player loads up DarkPlaces to try it.
2. They connect to a server to try to play.
3. They notice their FPS is low, they ask how to "fix" it.
4. They try to play and then notice certain things like the fullpitch (can look straight up) and the straight shaft ... both are considered "cheats" by the many ProQuake users.
5. They try to play and want to turn this off or that off because it interferes with their play or they can't see or can't aim well.
6. After a couple of minutes they quit and reload their old client, never to use DarkPlaces again because their impression was that they couldn't figure it out.

In the past and in present when I have seen this, I mention something to the effect of that they should provide feedback on the use of the client.

Almost without exception, they never do.

Therefore the development of DarkPlaces is denied feedback, feedback being a key element to the success of any project (in this case, widespead adoption of the client for online play, DarkPlaces has other communities like single player enthusiasts, Nexuiz, modders, total conversion standalone games, and so forth).

The reason for not providing feedback usually is either:

1. Too much trouble to do

But really it is usually #2

2. Don't want to be critical or sound like they are complaining.

This is normal. I hesistate myself. I hesistated providing input sometimes with JoeQuake. I hesistate critiquing some things that irk me about Qrack (but I do because I know I'm definitely in a very, very small minority on the precise topics of what irks me).

But in the end, if a project is denied feedback then the developers of a project at least cannot determine how to address issues that they are not told about.

The main loser is the Quake community. ProQuake was NEVER the most popular client in it's day. XQuake -- a client that did not follow the GPL and considered was a cheater Quake by old skoolers -- was vastly more popular than ProQuake.

I'm changing subjects here a little ...

ProQuake gained popularity primarily due to 2 things: 1. cheat-free mode because of all the cheaters, but mostly because 2. XQuake was GPL license violating client that did not release the source code, is hosted almost nowhere as a result of that stain and does not have an NAT fix and therefore can't connect to servers at all for maybe 35% of players.

In fact, ProQuake cheat-free early on was stunted by 2 things:

1. Players had to use "crappy" ProQuake instead of being able to use XQuake to play. XQuake was far more popular and some players said "to hell with that".

2. ProQuake 3.20 had cheat-free lag, that had a crippling lag effect on anyone with a dialup modem. This was fixed in 3.50 or so.

ProQuake cheat-free was almost terminally unpopular and unused until events that occurred on caplus.essentrix.net with widespread cheating accusations made by an unpopular (and probably unskilled) admin led to the server going cheat-free.

Soon this became the standard in CA, because no one wanted to play with cheaters and as ProQuake cheat-free got more use, eventually it was adopted in CRMOD and became pretty much the standard.

Meanwhile, around 2003 with broadband becoming widespread, router use started picking up. XQuake, like every Quake except ProQuake, could not connect thru the routers. This feature was added to JoeQuake very early on.

To compound things, by 2004 many broadband companies began to ship modems that were single port routers to support PPPOE connections (username and password requiring broadband connections) for non-PPPOE capable devices like XBoxes, Play Stations, etc. Neither XQuake nor GLQuake or WinQuake couldn't connect with those and these sort of problems compounded and eventually ProQuake was the only mainstream engine that could work properly for everyone for online play.

So XQuake and standard ID Software Quake were more or less snuffed out due to evolution, not for any other reason.

Which leads back to 2002 -- the most dominate engine was XQuake by a very wide margin.

XQuake had new particle effects, 24-bit texture support, brightness controls in the console, full keyboard binding support, customizable crosshairs, support for Quakeworld locs and the ability to remove vsync automatically (it was off by default, solely controlled by cl_maxfps).

No one that used XQuake wanted to use ProQuake.

So how can in 2007 can there be anyone saying that they truly want to use a washed out, ugly Quake like ProQuake when this wasn't even true in 2002?

No one who plays QW says "Hey, I wish our engines looked like dogshit!" and uninstalls ezQuake or FuhQuake and installs crappy old QW 2.30 so things can look like ass.

I think many of those that feel ProQuake is all they want is because they feel resigned to the fact that so far no "in-all-ways" superior engine has emerged to displace it.

[Canadian*Sniper]

I can't take credit for that cheat-free quote

[Mindf!3ldzX]

It needs two options in the options menu...

1:Sexy Graphics (mostly everything on..)
2:Fast Graphics (everything off)

It ****NEEDS**** to be able to completely use regular Quake models!
Lightning from the LG is non-standard,and currently cant be setup to use the LG model from regular Quake.

It lacks a FPS option (proquakes pq_maxfps,qrack's cl_maxfps)
It has permanently enabled the FULLPITCH (you can look straight up) , on servers that have this disabled,this causes problems while trying to look up and shoot/aim at players,it causes a major problem! IF there is an option to turn this off,its well hidden! In proquake or qrack it is pq_fullpitch (qrack might be cl_fullpitch.....)

Over all, in order for this engine to be a successful online-quake optional engine, it must first be able to completely grasp Quakes look and feel , 2ndly it needs to have an option to dull down the learning curve for setting it up.It's currently like buying all the parts for a vehicle and assembling it yourself,rather than just buying one from a dealership.

I tested it tonite in both CAx and RA, and had less than enjoyable experience with it due to the above mentioned issue's.I got a 12 ping in DP vs GLPro's 30-40 ping,but over all felt the same.

ps : While I dont expect DP to become "the next proquake" or, I dont expect DP to "be proquake" so to speak, considering ProQuake is the equivilant to a standard in Quake,if there is such a thing.... It should be able to completely preserve the ProQuake feel/look. the eye candy just becomes icing on the QUAKE so to speak

[Canadian*Sniper]

Lightning from the LG is non-standard,and currently cant be setup to use the LG model from regular Quake.

Effects:
- Polygon Lightning OFF
- Smooth Sweet Lightning OFF

It has permanently enabled the FULLPITCH (you can look straight up) , on servers that have this disabled,this causes problems while trying to look up and shoot/aim at players,it causes a major problem! IF there is an option to turn this off,its well hidden! In proquake or qrack it is pq_fullpitch (qrack might be cl_fullpitch.....)

this will help

in_pitch_min -69.60937118530272726999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
in_pitch_max 79.45312118530272726999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

[Baker]

This message has been deleted by Canadian*Sniper.

Now I'll never know!

It could have been "the meaning of life", the formula to McDonald's secret sauce or maybe just Canadian Sniper telling me to STFU *Sigh*

Was it a good post? Damn ... now I can't sleep

[Canadian*Sniper]

LOL! Speaking of sleep, I need some. gnite

The deleted message was the 2nd part of my response to mindz which I just edited into the previous post.

edit: oh ya, it also had the meaning of life. I try to screw with people's lives time to time

[golden_boy]

I think Darkplaces would gain a larger following if it would _default_ to standard Quake look and feel. The whole rest should be optional.

Personally I wouldn't like to have a second Quake folder just for it either. A quake engine should be a drop-in replacement.

I like that speed display that Joequake has, and the "maps" and "demos" menus. Those would be nice.

Make it look like stock Quake (initially), make it a drop-in replacement, make sure FPS are good, make it straightforward to use (for experienced Quakers), make the rest optional. I'm not buying a computer that can handle Darkplaces-with-all-extras anytime soon. Not enough pocket-money (what's the English word, allowance?) :-)

My next machine will probably be 4-5 years old instead of 10. I need something that will run on older hardware and cheap (and QUIET) 3D cards off ebay. That's my requirements.

I'm not willing to shell out for a "gaming mouse" with 16 buttons or a 19" screen, either. But of course I'm not the standard gamer. I don't go to LAN parties. I don't like Counterstrike. I'm over 30, too, and still remember playing Doom2 on a pentium 90 and liking it. That's what I go by in terms of user friendliness and enjoyment.

This is not to take away from you Lord Havoc, you do outstanding work. I like a lot of the features in your README. But I pretty much think that choice of engine should be left to people, and that choice is good. I don't want Joequake, Qrack, AguirRe's Quake or Fitzquake to die, either. I don't believe in "features=better game experience" at all. I'm a huge follower of the KISS attitude (keep it simple stupid.) My quake engine needs to be more like a land rover than a lamborghini.

:-) to each his own, and there are just widely varying needs out there.

And Proquake is probably the Windows 98 of netquake. Hard to beat. I actually installed it recently because it's nice to play mods like Malice with.

gb

[Canadian*Sniper]

Personally I wouldn't like to have a second Quake folder just for it either. A quake engine should be a drop-in replacement.

just a FYI that darkplaces doesn't do that I know that fuhquake based engines do

[scar3crow]

Personally I wouldn't like to have a second Quake folder just for it either. A quake engine should be a drop-in replacement.

I dont see what you mean by this... The only Darkplaces related folder I have is DPmod which requires DarkPlaces, not the other way around, and is a separate download. Well I do have a folder with the DP readme in it, but thats not quite the same.

The folders I do have for engines are joequake which thrusts things upon me, qroyale, but it is an engine for a specific mod by Rich, qrack which also has rather large files it installs, telejano, tenebrae, tomaz, and vr2.

The engines I have that dont create folders beyond basic readme stuffs is DP, proQuake, FitzQuake (thank you for spelling it correctly), fteqw, and various others.

DP to me is a drop in engine... seriously, you unzip a file and plop it into your Quake folder and double click. The rest is extra, particularly being as how the default settings run great on my 5 year old machine.

BTW if youre looking for an older video card to upgrade to, my GeForece4 Ti4200 64meg has been great for me.

I dont like ProQuake, it feels funky. I prefer DarkPlaces and FitzQuake because theyre closer in feel to the original Quake.

Sheeit I still remember playing Doom on a 386 and loving it =)

For me, DP is a follower of the KISS mentality - but it doesnt restrain you to simple if you dont want it to be.

[Baker]

I think what he means is that DarkPlaces uses c:\quake\id1\config.cfg and has to battle with other engines FitzQuake/Enhanced GL/ProQuake/etc. that also use that location.

As a result, no engine is ever setup properly if you ever use other engines at all.

Qrack/JoeQuake/EZQuake/FuhQuake all have their own folder, for example, and can co-exist.

I'm not sure what to think on that. I think having a folder for every engine is wasteful but yet having them all share the same config is a very problematic issue too.

I dont like ProQuake, it feels funky. I prefer DarkPlaces and FitzQuake because theyre closer in feel to the original Quake.

I think ProQuake is ancient and should retire into the sunset, but only a madman could call the engine funky or say some other engine feels more like the original Quake because it looks identical to GLQuake in it's entirety.

[scar3crow]

When I say feel I mean literally the player input and how the game reacts. ProQuake feels funky to me on that level.

[Baker]

I think for single player DarkPlaces feel more like Quake than Quake does.

[Baker]

this will help

in_pitch_min -69.60937118530272726999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
in_pitch_max 79.45312118530272726999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

I hope that works. I notice in DarkPlaces on servers with fullpitch disabled (very common) that I can look straight up and then server "corrects" my view to the acceptable max and the effect of that is a little annoying.

Where/how did you get those numbers? From engine source or something?

[Mindf!3ldzX]

I hope that works. I notice in DarkPlaces on servers with fullpitch disabled (very common) that I can look straight up and then server "corrects" my view to the acceptable max and the effect of that is a little annoying.

Where/how did you get those numbers? From engine source or something?

I am *not* going to make some fucked up work around for something like that my permanent solution for such a thing, this leads to the consistant "Yea,Im having problems,help me fix it" horse shit that currently plagues the newer engines in Quake.

Effects:
- Polygon Lightning OFF
- Smooth Sweet Lightning OFF

This does not work, do you think I launched DP and just started bitching at random ,and didnt bother try fixing it myself within the options? With all the LG options turned off,I get a straight shaft. NOT the original Lightning model. Get a clue, I test DP for an hour or two with Baker roughly,got frustrated with it,and wont open it again until a newer release has been issued that atleast corrects/alters the current issues plagueing it as a Quake Engine.

gg

ps : I still love you sniper,but your sleeping on the couch tonite bitch.

[Canadian*Sniper]

Well I turn off those settings and I get the original shaft. So sorry I tried to help you. I can't take this bullshit anymore. It's over Mindz! Go get yourself a new boyfriend!