Models: ethics, etc

[ajay]

For my current mod, I need models (surprising eh?), the type I need are not commonly available in Quake compatible models, and I can't find any free ones that fit.
Therefore I've looked at buying ones. There's no licencing problems; I'd be free to use them in non-profit mods/games and convert them, and I'd obviously give credit. They're also reasonably priced.
My question is whether it's a frowned upon thing in mods? I ask because it the distance past I'm sure I remember some people commenting on it not being in the spirit of modding.
What are people's views?

[Krymzon 45]

Hard to say.

As long as you are using the content for non profit and are still giving the respective owner complete credit and not merely trying to steal their work and credit it all for yourself I don't see it as a bad thing. It's one thing to just rip some content off of a site and throw it in a game and say hey I made this and try to attempt to sell their work than saying hey these look badass may I use it in a free nonprofit mod and give you full credit. All in all it's just really what you feel is right or wrong in this situation.

[Seven]

[...] My question is whether it's a frowned upon thing in mods? I ask because it the distance past I'm sure I remember some people commenting on it not being in the spirit of modding.

Hello ajay,

I know what you mean and I also know that people do exist that commented what you wrote above.

The answer should be rather simple though.
There are a lot of mods (= modifications) available for every game. The author himself decides whether to put 3rd party contents into his mod or not. He also decides if his mod will turn into a "stand-alone" game. But even then he will most probably use 3rd party contents in it (example the engine in most cases).

So, in my opinion, it is unlikely for a single person, which has skills in many but not all categoriez, will do something totally based on his work.
You should not try to do so, as it will lead to frustration, because you will feel yourself forced to do things that you do not like...
Some people can do mapping with ease and great fun, other can do sound effects, or models or coding or etc. But most people will have their weak point (like Spike in texturing ) and nobody forces people to create content which they feel really bad about. They�d rather spend their time in doing things they like and are quick in.
You are doing this in your free time ! So you should feel comfortable/good in doing what you are doing, as it is your hobby, right ?

The other reason why you can definitely add 3rd party contents to your mod is, that people create this content exactly for that reason. It should be used in other peoples work/project. They uploaded their content for the ones in need.
Of course you have to be very sensitive about the webpage you are downloading or buying things from... Are they trustworth or only want to make money with content they are not allowed to sell ?
At opengameart (just to give 1 example) you can be quite sure that this page holds contents which you can use without having to worry. The individual licens is always printed there. In most cases it is free touse in non-cermercial mods/projects.

And as you wrote in your post, your project will be given away for free in the end. So you should not have any trouble with it.


=======================


Maybe also fitting to this topic:
Regarding the question about "grass" models (in your pm):
I used this link to start a search a few minutes ago: link
And knowing your mod, I think I found some interesting and hopefully fitting grass models.
Please follow these "search-link" into the individual websites:
- matches at "blenswap"
- matches at "opengameart"
- matches at "3dmodel" (I do not know this page though ...)


Best looking grass I found so far:

From blendswap (it fits good because of low poly):


From blendswap (I like it because of its seamless pattern which you can put on big areas):



Best of luck.

[golden_boy]

You decide what you should or shouldn't do in your mod. If the third-party models all fit together with your environments and your artistic vision, then why not. The small problem is that they probably won't, unless the models are made exactly to your specifications.

If you have assets from several different sources with different visuals and different art styles, they might clash unless you are very, very careful.

I wouldn't say I frown upon this practice - a lot of game dev teams outsource asset creation. It's a standard thing to do. Just make sure the assets don't clash somehow.

I dare say that your own models will *always* be a better fit for your game, even if they don't look as polished as other people's. You might downscale your ambitions and go for lower poly models and textures, if that enables you to do most of them yourself, like for example Jim is doing with his game.

It is not unethical at all. It just makes it harder to achieve a unified look and feel compared to doing your own.

[Krymzon 45]

Right!

Your mod is your choice

[Dutch]

Just remember: professional game makers DO NOT create all of their own content. id software did not make the sounds for Quake. They purchased them from a 3rd party company that specializes in sound making.

Look at all the games that use Havok engine. They didn't code the physics or what not, they are using someone else's engine. The same can be said if you are modding for DarkPlaces, QuakeSpasm, FTE...the engine is as much an asset as anything else.

If you are willing to put in the time and have reasonable goals, then yes you can probably do it all yourself over time. But it will take you a long time, and you will never master any one thing. You can't be a professional high-poly modeler and an expert coder typically, because these are two different trades that each take years and years of practice. But if you do simple stuff (like model for MDL formats and don't plan on coding entire engines) then you could do most of the stuff yourself.

Me, I'd rather focus on learning coding and basic modeling. I use sound effects that are free to use, and I sometimes alter them to fit my needs with programs like Audacity and what not.

Another good example is CapnBubs Authentic Ranger model. I was about a third of the way through making my own, when I realized his was exactly what I had in mind. After checking that he was ok with others using it (he even gives the blend file to modify his model), I decided to use it. This freed up hours of my time to focus on other models and coding.

As long as people are ok with you using their work, and you give them obvious credit, I say go for it. If some people playing your mod don't like that, well...they don't have to play your mod.

[golden_boy]

It was about models, people.

Engine != content.

Sounds have no visual appearance, thus don't directly interfere with a game's art style as long as they are adequate. They can hardly be compared to models.

id software did create all their models.

[Krymzon 45]

Right.

I wish there was a way to remake the entire quake game on the doom 3 engine. I seen the mod they had made for it Called Shambler's Castle and it looked amazing. However Darkplaces is still a full on badass engine for Quake hands down.

[golden_boy]

I wish there was a way to remake the entire quake game on the doom 3 engine. I seen the mod they had made for it Called Shambler's Castle and it looked amazing. However Darkplaces is still a full on badass engine for Quake hands down.

Heh. Remaking all of Quake (cough) is unrealistic because of the amount of levels required.

More detailed levels require correspondingly more time to make, so the project as a whole would require a large amount of manpower.

My own game, Scout's Journey, only has 5-6 large levels. I think that is the limit of what one guy can realistically do. My levels are each split into smaller parts now, for performance and practical reasons, so the game will have a good dozen levels, technically. Having to make 30 levels in 4 episodes with more than 4 artistic styles and texture themes, good luck. That's just highly unrealistic, and is one major reason why the Remake Quake project failed - it ran out of manpower.

Similarly, the Black Mesa project (Half-Life remake) did not include the Xen part because there was no manpower for it. It was too much extra effort.

Remaking the full set of monsters for the Doom 3 engine would be doable. It would just take a while - a few years, probably.

Programming is the easiest task - Doom 3 already comes with the complete infrastructure for a Quake-like shooter game.

So to finish the Shambler's Castle mod, you would need a few years to do the monsters (unless you have one talented guy working fulltime) and you could pretty much forget about remaking all 30 levels. If it was me, I would aim for 10 or 12 small levels, or 5-6 larger ones.

Recreating the complete Quake content (to Doom 3 standards) is probably not realistically doable for a team of volunteers.

[ajay]

Thanks for the views, appreciated.

I once made a mod with 16 levels. It, and they, were not exactly polished, I guess.

[Krymzon 45]

I understand that golden_boy.

I was just saying it would be nice, However a full blown remake could also lead to the destruction of a good classic as it would no doubt be turned into one of these FPS styled games that have become what everyone knows as CALL OF DUTY only medevil style. I think Quake is actually perfect the way it is and with all these graphics mods and add on stuff being added here that is really all the remake we need for an all time classic. I wouldn't be surprised though if id software tried it at some point just because of how popular it is and everyone suggesting it. If they see a good chance to rake in some serious cash then look out here comes Quake for PC, PS4, & XBOX ONE Lol. If they do I could only hope and pray it doesn't end up like their last game RAGE. Rage was really a big let down for me not to mention a really short and just over all easy game.

[Dutch]

It was about models, people.

Engine != content.

Sounds have no visual appearance, thus don't directly interfere with a game's art style as long as they are adequate. They can hardly be compared to models.

id software did create all their models.

Engines, models and sounds all have one thing in common: they are assets you use to build something of your own. So the thread may be about models specifically, but the issue of using other people's shit governs anything you yourself don't make from scratch.

[Tea Monster]

All the modelers who worked on Quake were paid. Especially being a single man mod, you will need to save as much time as you can. I would rather you take some non-standard approaches to your mod and get it complete, rather than wind up on the looooooonnnng list of mods that run out of steam and rot in development hell.

[ajay]

ust as a quick point is there a maximum size (mb and size) that models can be in darkplaces?

[nahuel]

ust as a quick point is there a maximum size (mb and size) that models can be in darkplaces?

i use some times a really ammount of models in darkplaces without problems (200 mb) but, not in a single map!

I suggest to use iqm for props and entities, iqm models are very optimized and the size is very small

you can compile easily iqm models if you have smd files (just eskeletical models)