Authentic Model Improvement

[NightFright]

And we have grips, baby! If you are OK with these, I will post a d/l link here and add them on Github (yeah, I am not committing anything any more without feedback first, lol!)

fcsdCbQ.jpg

I also took the opportunity to file off some more 90� angles on the top of the plasma cells. Rocket ammo remains unchanged and is just shown here for completion purposes.

[osjclatchford]

lovely work!

[osjclatchford]

hmm. having looked at these properly, theres something about the handles that bothers me.
I think its the sticking up nature of them. I feel like it should be that handle is completely parallel with the top of the boxes and just the two dark bits done as wedge holes, like how tabun did for generations arena, thus:

square on the handle side but angled up on the other side to create a right-triangular divot.
it makes more sense tbh as they could be stacked etc...
also makes them closer to the original in profile.
I'd say the cells are great but I think you should also include the earlier versions (with the two bits coming up) in the dl too as alternatives like you did with the rockets...

[NightFright]

I was already expecting this with the handles. As for the cells, I will not put alternatives with parts sticking out since that was a clear mistake on my end. It's grips, not battery parts (actually I had hoped nobody would have seen that post before I modified it. You are too fast, man! LOL).

I will modify the ammo tomorrow and post new screenshots.

[osjclatchford]

as you wish. just fyi you're not the only one to interpret it that way though
Simon o callahan did it for the cells in arcane dimensions too:

I rather like it! LOL

but yes looking at the id1 skin its clear, now its suposed to go in not up!

Tabun did a good job too, simply making it a third rib that goes between the lower parts. perhaps a full handle is not needed and just a rib? saves a few mins I'd've thought?

[NightFright]

Sock's interpretation is certainly visually interesting, but in the context of my own adjustments, doing the "handle thing" makes a lot more sense.

On the other hand, Tabun's cell lids are also not bad. No handle, but two indentations instead. Will experiment with that to see if it looks compelling. The skin itself can be interpreted in both ways. The fact there is more detail at the "bottom" than with all the other boxes is rather speaking in favor of Tabun's approach.

Maybe Romero can be asked about it on Twitter, he often knows details like that. But the top of the shell/nail ammo crates really look like top-down views of a handle, as rough as it can be.

I am already finished with the "simplifications" and will post screens tomorrow. It reduces brush counts a bit, which is never bad. Lowering the handle into the box makes the whole thing more faithful again, even though it's harder to see there actually is a modelled grip now. In the end, that's negligible for pickups, though. Will keep backups of the elevated grips, anyway.

Btw: Had to laugh about whether "it" is "going up" or not...

[osjclatchford]

Lols. I look forward to what you come out with!

here:
https://www.mediafire.com/file/n6cci...ammos.zip/file
is a file with my latest edits to those alternative nail and shell pickups (based on sock's AD models) I was talking about.

I've altered the lids to include two small ones on the big boxes, including nail specific ones (to identify from the top if directly above easier) and some of the original top detail grip/handle on the small shell one for the sake of nostalgia.
also you'll notice Ive altered the details on the side of the big boxes to feature the same art as they had on the original id1 boxes but with functioning (fullbright) red light details.
I know not needed for the project's pack but somone other than me might want them and this is the best place for them should the need arise...
warning, they are simply mdls renamed to bsp not true bsp's...

[NightFright]

This should be it.

Shells/nails/cells with new top + polished plasma cells (0.2 MB, incl. source)

N0a7GfG.jpg

Besides lowering the handles down, I decided to make them also thinner, with the positive side effect that they became more visible in general. As you can see, I went for the "sunken batteries" approach for the cells, and quite convincingly, I might say. Even wrote an email to Romero regarding that (no kidding), let's see if I get an answer. Anyway, he will probably confirm my assumption. Other than with my first edits (with the embossed NIN logo etc), I firmly believe these changes are real improvements.

Aaaand... that's it for the BSP models, quite possibly for good! Side note: Trenchbroom is one hell of a tool.

*EDIT*
Small update since I realized I had screwed up skin alignment for both cells. On top of that, the two sunken parts on top of b_batt0 were not 100% symmetrical (not that anybody would have noticed, but as a perfectionist, I just couldn't let this slide, lol).

[Tea Monster]

That looks good in the model viewer here. See what you think. https://www.dropbox.com/s/pzyop7s371...DL_02.zip?dl=0

[NightFright]

Looks good, but that new model only has one animation sequence ("frame") while your original file had two ("old" and "shake"). I dunno if the game can keep them apart when using this. When trying it ingame, at least it's not playing the shake animation when Shub is idle. Whether it's used when you telefrag her... tbh... hard to tell.

The real problem with the model is that it's floating slightly above ground, at least in Quakespasm-Spiked with which I tested it:

hP82C5j.jpg

So, summary:
- Move model down
- Split animation sequence again into "old" and "shake" like in the original model

If I am brutally honest:
Besides that floating glitch right now, I wouldn't be able to tell if there was any animation improvement whatsoever. That report I got back then was apparently VERY nitpicking and I dunno if we really need to change this at all costs. You really need magnification glasses to see what the guy actually complained about. But well, I would say we see this through after all.

[osjclatchford]

the new ammos are perfect! lovely stuff, going straight in my pak0! (I keep that just enhance vanilla, then my pak1 is just angled weapon/projectile models and my 'alternative' models go into pak2! LOL I keep it seperate in-case I fancy a 'classic' playtrough or if Im sharing it with others!)

as for the shub. not that I can tell the difference with the anims but here:
https://www.mediafire.com/file/rce7y...c_fix.zip/file
is an ammended version of TM's latest release, with the old girl simply lowered 20 in all frames... tested and it worked fine so should be ok afaik...

do let me know.

*edit*
just reuploaded as I also just fixed the fullbright pixels in the skin provided on the new model. (simply put my skin from our current model on this one!)
also, now ive tested it in game a bit, I can really see the difference in the anims quite a bit. this shub breathes properly unlike our current model which, although the tenticles are as equally writhy, seems a bit static around the midsection. this should be the ideal successor...
*end*

oh, one question, are the ammo bsp's supposed to be fullbright all the time?
the id models seem to show this but I never, ever, noticed that in all the years I've played, LOL I suppose its to stop you from missing stuff on dark maps like e4m4 with all the ammo behind the pillars and all that.
guess that makes hte model-converted ones I use a bit of a difficulty hike as they get hidden in the dark (well the small ones do, the big ones have the little light on them but you know of what I speak) still, tis no bother to me as I know most maps by muscle-memory and I do occasionally play with the optional flashlight mod on, espescially on episode 4
funny what you learn abou these old games years and years later...

[Tea Monster]

I've updated my model with a lower origin point in case future alterations are required. I did use your skin, but I think the Blender exporter must do some behind-the-scenes bollocks with the image file supplied.

I did re-import the original id model into Blender and more closely matched the animations of mine to the original and fixed some problems with animations that did loop, but looked glitchy at how fast they looped. I re-did the whole 'breathing' animation sequence.

Who did the overly picky animation critique that nobody else could spot? Also, if nobody else could see it, why was it passed to me as "Need to fix"?

[NightFright]

@ Tea Monster:
The report came from a Russian guy called Andrej who is kinda haunting the Quaketastic forums. He also spammed me with tons of models which he considered great and suited for the model pack, even though I repeatedly told him I don't want or need them. Anyway, after looking at your fixed Shub a few times, I do see the difference after all. It looks smoother, even though it helps if you have the previous file for comparison.
I guess it still wasn't a "must do" fix, so if you understood it like that, it was probably a miscommunication on my part. Still, since we ended up with a better model in the end, there's hardly any reason to complain about it.

@ osj:
Thanks for the Shub position fix! I have again renamed the frames and saved the whole mdl in QuarK to bring down filesize. I dunno what your program is doing with the models, but it's bloating filesize up by the factor of 5-8x.
Regarding the BSPs: Indeed these are always kinda fullbright. This is due to the fact that BSPs need to come with their own light entities (even the brush models are maps, basically). All the ammo and health boxes have five different light sources which illuminate them from all kinds of angles. Should you dare to remove them or deactivate lighting during compilation, you will end up with a pitch-black model. If you replace any of these with renamed MDLs, they would stop being fullbright since MDLs are using the light sources from their surroundings (they don't come with their own).

So... basically we have everything in place for a new AMQ release! I will let it sit a few more days in case something still comes up, then it's time for uploading.

[osjclatchford]

Well, I think its the skins themselves.
I use qme to extract them as bmp.
then I use msp paint (xp edition) to edit them, (as its my weapon of choice) I save them as png 1st, so as not to cause palette issues.
then do my edits to the truecolour png.
then i open the original bmp in gimp, paste my edits from the edited png over it (this is a quick dirty fix for not loosing any palette info) then save this as a PCX. (if i just save the png as pcx it wont work)
why PCX? well becuase thats the only format I've found that I can save it from gimp that keeps the quake palette and that qme will let me re-import the skin in turn onto the model without it getting funted, all screwy or just turning out black.
and then I remove any unwanted skins left over and save the model as an mdl.
so I figure its something in that absurdly and needlessly complicated process thats increasing the digital footprint of the image somehow...
I dunno. I just make the stuff! LOL

oh, yeah. I forgot to mention that if I'm working with fullbrights, I load the edited png into slade, convert it to a quake palette png, then use the colour replace tool to swap colours on the palette to eiter add or remove unwanted pixel colours by swapping them for something different.
then thats saved as a truecolour again and then copied from mspaint and then pasted into gimp on the original bmp and then saved to pcx before being re-imported onto the model...
phew, no wonder I'm tired.

and yes, I'm sure theres some other way thats easier or whatever but! I care not. this is how i do it and I've had no complaints with the finished products before. well aside from the file-size deal but as I say, I've no idea or to be honest no real interest what causes it. as long as it runs in quake ok, I'm happy... and if you can fix it in post? well, better still!

now, I'll grant you, you didn't ask for that wall of exposition, but perhaps the answer to "why are your mdl's so fucking big, Latchford?" might be in there somewhere...


well, regardless this has been a fun and unexpected diversion of late and in truth I thought we were done a little while back now. will be nice to see another update to the pack and kudos to you for all the outstanding work you've done on the bsp items to make this happen!
I know Ive said it already but eally love those rocket ammos specifically... just great stuff! and of course, the nail, shell and cellsa re not to be sniffed at either.
@TM thanks be to you for the shubby chic edits too, she's so much more 'alive' now!

...I've a feeling this sort of project will never truly end. soon as someone releases something better or thinks of another detail that can be added it starts all over again!
which is nice too!

[NightFright]

BTW, I have in fact received word from no other than John Romero himself, confirming my theory about the top of the cells. So yeah, it's NOT a handle, and it's not anything sticking out of the top, either. This should solve the matter once and for all. (Not that there was ever a huge discussion about it here or anywhere else, but it's at least a confirmation @self that I made the right call.) He even suggested where a handle could be added.

IztdOC9.jpg

Have I already mentioned Romero is awesome? Answering a rather trivial question like that within 24 hours.