That recent terrorist attack on that Club......

[Dilligaf]

I stand by what I said about the paranoia and fear being what the Terrorists want, and walk with as much confidence around someone wearing a long black beard, brown skin, and a checkered scarf over a brown sweater as I will with a bunch of white kids with ****y t-shirts and starbucks coffee drinks in hand.

You just keep thinking that... I'm sure a lot of those kids in that nightclub felt the same way you do.

I walk around with a lot of confidence too... only mine is supplemented by a 7 round clip tucked away inside it...

To each his own I suppose, just be careful out there!

[nahuel]

God, no, there's enough mental health discrimination in this country/in the world as it is. No one should have the authority to determine who is and isn't "psychologically stable" because the reality is that that's highly subjective and there's no standard for who's 'crazy' and who's not other than everyday social standards and the way those with unpopular opinions and/or mentall ilness are treated unfairly for it.

Sorry i do not agree with Foucault stuff, I prefer medical science, DSM 5 and APA

Most 'mass shooters' are completely sane (as in they don't have a record of persistent mental illness yet do have a tendency to become very violent when angry and/or have violence-condoning personal opinions).

1- Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold: pyscho and depression (columbine massacre)
2- Seung-Hui Cho (virginia tech massacre) "The physician who examined Cho noted that he had a flat affect and depressed mood, even though Cho "denied suicidal thoughts and did not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder."[64] " (wikipedia)
3- James Eagan Holmes (aurora massacre) Demency


I do not remeber many cases, but probably you are not right in this matter, aniway, if you do not believe in psychiatry is OK

[DeathMaster]

God, no, there's enough mental health discrimination in this country/in the world as it is. No one should have the authority to determine who is and isn't "psychologically stable" because the reality is that that's highly subjective and there's no standard for who's 'crazy' and who's not other than everyday social standards and the way those with unpopular opinions and/or mental illness are treated unfairly for it.

I think the people who spent seven years of their life studying mental health are pretty qualified to judge who's psychologically stable and who isn't. The problem with a lot of shooters and people like Harris and Klebold is that they didn't receive the psychological resources necessary to cope with their depression, which resulted in the Columbine massacre. If there wasn't anybody out there to judge the insane among the sane there would be complete chaos.

With that, there IS a standard for who's crazy and who isn't, and it has nothing to do with everyday socials standards or unpopular opinions. It has to do with the way people act and the way the associate themselves with the rest of the world, for instance someone who shuts themselves in their room and does nothing but play a 20 year old fps should probably get evaluated (uh-oh, now we've all got problems). Those who aren't getting treated and who's symptoms progressively get worse and worse go further down the path of insanity and from there we get a pretty good idea of who's crazy and who isn't.

As for people being treated unfairly: anyone remember a month ago when I preached to the choir about me dealing with depression? After that I got tons of suggestions, help, people telling me I'll get through it, etc. Trust me: people are NOT being treated unfairly because of mental illness. The issue is that people are being treated unfairly and that leads to mental illness.

[H1CC]

There are LOTS of wolves and bears up here, but what most people don't know is that the most dangerous animal up here is the moose. Nothing scarier or more awnry than a cow moose with her calf.

One morning, there was a cow moose with her calf on my front porch. Moose aren't known for attacking at random all the time. But it does happen enough to make people nervous. The obvious solution to avoid being trampled to death is to stay the hell away from them.

Under your logic, I should have just walked outside all will-nilly and expected nothing bad at all to happen.

..
How is that the equivalent of what I said? Your moose was in a potentially dangerous situation. Those Muslim teenagers/young adults I was talking about were not acting differently than the other kids, merely talking in different languages and wearing different clothes etc. so I don't think the example you gave is a good one.
Is what you're saying that you're okay with Muslims (who aren't Terrorists or otherwise extremist) existing, and being around, just not existing or being around here-- wherever it is that you are?

[Dutch]

..
How is that the equivalent of what I said? Your moose was in a potentially dangerous situation. Those Muslim teenagers/young adults I was talking about were not acting differently than the other kids, merely talking in different languages and wearing different clothes etc. so I don't think the example you gave is a good one.
Is what you're saying that you're okay with Muslims (who aren't Terrorists or otherwise extremist) existing, and being around, just not existing or being around here-- wherever it is that you are?

You're missing the whole point. My moose example makes perfect sense when you think about it as avoiding potential danger (even if there is none...but how can you be sure?), and not trying to spin it into some racially motivated bullshit.

I couldn't care less about the color of someone's skin, the clothes they wear, or the religious beliefs they hold. I simply don't care.

But here are some basic facts:

1) the Muslim faith preaches reckless hate and violence.
2) the bastard that shot those people was carrying out his religion.
3) there are a LOT more like him, and they all look like average people until they start cutting someone's head off on camera, or shooting up a nightclub.
4) Because of the alarming number of Muslim radicals in the world that share the same culture as non-radical Muslims, it's impossible to say who's who.
5) other cultures that subscribe to more peaceful religions don't get viewed as dangerous, because they aren't. I don't remember seeing Buddhists murdering people in cold blood because of their doctrine.
6) most middle eastern-looking people are Muslim, so the two almost go hand in hand.

So, to avoid potential danger, I will not be walking through a crowd of people proudly displaying middle eastern culture, nor will I be walking through a herd of moose, because the best way to avoid danger is by staying away from potentially dangerous things. I can do that without hating or even disliking middle easterns or moose.

That's as plain and straightforward as I can make it. If you still don't agree, or want to call me a bigot, then that's your perogative and we can chalk this up to not seeing the world through the same set of eyes.

[MadGypsy]

I identify as a loud mouthed gun toting bigot and if you can't accept that you are a racist.



I'm just trying this out. It seems to work well for every upside down identification on the planet. If you don't like it, I can scream nonsense louder than you in place of a sensible argument.

@and that I'm highly defensive around you, MadG

Defensive around me for what? I even play your game and treat you like a girl even though I knew you aren't one. I don't recall ever giving you a reason to be defensive. But it's coming up right now...

@gender fluid -

IMO, you are all fucked up H1CC. You seem to encompass every possibility of gender through circumstance. You have boy parts, girl desires and boy or girl expressions depending on your current disposition. If you were actually born this way, I sympathize with your situation. Chances are greater though that your parents were completely uninformed and literally fed you an ass load of estrogen mimickers. No one will ever convince me that it is perfectly normal to be a boy that thinks he is a girl. It is even less normal that you can be whatever you want at any given time.

[Mindf!3ldzX]

-snip-

Damn dude, comin off harsh like a gravity bong hit aren't we?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDwt_qNwXQo[/ame]

[Davers]

In an interview earlier today Newt Gingrich said we need to throw these "people" that are on these terrorist watch lists in jail now! Not waiting until they kill 50+ innocent people.
"Watching" does no good at all.
This is a war.
Look back in your American history... It's been done before... We have to protect our citizenry!

I'm for that procedure!!

Throwing people in prison for being on the watch list?
Really? There are a lot of people on watch list that shouldn't be on the list.

Little children that are 6 years and younger are on the list.
Canadian and American governments. My own Canadian government
has admitted to the mistake (a lot of red tape to correct this)

So any innocent person accidentally on this so called list should be thrown
in jail? You should study history more.

Go onto wikipedia, and search for japanese internment camps....
Yes Canada and the U.S. did this, which was wrong btw.

And so you will learn, The Canadian government shut down all Japanese-language newspapers, took possession of businesses and fishing boats, and effectively sold them. In order to fund the internment itself, vehicles, houses and personal belongings were also sold.

So basicly innocent people should be thrown in jail based on their
color of skin. Wow.. Such a primitive thought.

I am glad i live in Canada today, most people here don't share these crude ideas.

[Davers]

All i'm gonna say, is if at least a few of those people in the nightclub had been legally armed, this entire scenario may have panned out drastically different.

Up here in Idaho, if some scumbag starts popping shots in a public setting, I guarantee you a few dozen other people are clearing leather to return fire to the son of a bitch.

Probably why there are very few shootings in these parts...bad guys are looking to dominate other people, not to get in a gun fight.

Then when the cops do show up (maybe already there off duty)
Everyone gets shot, because the police don't know who's who..
What a mess that would be.

[Davers]

No not all Iranians, Syrians, and former U.A.E. residents, or anyone else from the Middle East for that matter... Just the Muslims. They are unwilling, or unable to police their own, so someone is going to have to do it for them! These people don't want to live in a civil society, live and let live. It's their way or the highway... I call BS on that!!

Do research... Look at what the Imams are teaching in their Mosques. These people have a warped view of the world around them. They treat women like dogs. They blindfold LGBTQ and throw them off seven story roofs. Cut peoples heads off or put them in cages and burn them alive! Enough is enough! Obama's thing of "well if we just LOVE them enough and kiss their ass they'll like us and leave us alone" and being so over the damn top politically correct crap isn't working.
No more "gun free zones". You don't see many Bass Pro Shops getting shot up! Take a look around, it's getting worse, much worse. I say screw em'... one of em' better not flinch the wrong way around me. I'm sick of their shit! I carry every time I leave the house now... and will not hesitate to protect my family or those around me if that's what it comes to...

Timothy Mcveigh wasn't a muslim.
You are always going to have terrorism on some level or another.
Btw, wasn't Timmy a white American citizen ? hmm

[Dilligaf]

Throwing people in prison for being on the watch list?
Really? There are a lot of people on watch list that shouldn't be on the list.

Little children that are 6 years and younger are on the list.
Canadian and American governments. My own Canadian government
has admitted to the mistake (a lot of red tape to correct this)

So any innocent person accidentally on this so called list should be thrown
in jail? You should study history more.

Go onto wikipedia, and search for japanese internment camps....
Yes Canada and the U.S. did this, which was wrong btw.

And so you will learn, The Canadian government shut down all Japanese-language newspapers, took possession of businesses and fishing boats, and effectively sold them. In order to fund the internment itself, vehicles, houses and personal belongings were also sold.

So basicly innocent people should be thrown in jail based on their
color of skin. Wow.. Such a primitive thought.

I am glad i live in Canada today, most people here don't share these crude ideas.

These people have to be vetted and that's not getting done. You're entitled to your opinion as am I. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Mindf!3ldzX]

I apologize for making this thread.

[Dutch]

@davers

No, it wouldn't be a mess, because the bad guy would be dead and all reaponsible gun owners would be re-holstered by the time the cops showed up.

You know what is a mess, though? 50 people mercilessly slaughtered as they ran around trying to flee for their lives with no means of saving themselves. We just saw the result of no one but the bad guy having a firearm. The result was 50 dead people.

You are totally correct about the watchlists, however.

[MadGypsy]

You know what's crazy? 50 summin people died trying to run away. How many would have died if 50 summin people charged the gunman? There is no way to know but I bet about 10 or 15 would have died before 35 people beat this guys brain in.

@mindz ~ harsh

Ya know man, I can't go around apologizing for everything I think/believe any more than I can pretend I don't think/believe it. The world is not roses and sunshine. I GUARANTEE you other people here totally agree with me they are just too polite to say anything. I'm not polite. If I went around this world holding everything in due to politeness or political correctness I'd be the next person you see on the news mowing down crowds of people. However, harsh or not, the point wasn't to be harsh. The point was "Why are you defensive around me when I've never done this..." (so to speak)

Unless I am seriously forgetting something I have never done anything to H1CC. Might even be one of the few people that has said something I didn't like and I responded with a level head to. If no matter how cool, calm and collected I might be to someone they are still going to be on guard, what's the point of being C,C&C? I gave H1CC what she has been waiting for. For the record, I still couldn't give 2 fucks if H1CC identified as a Non Trinitary Agendered ManBearPig from Asgard. Whatever she has going on with herself she seems like "cool people".

[H1CC]

So, to avoid potential danger, I will not be walking through a crowd of people proudly displaying middle eastern culture, nor will I be walking through a herd of moose, because the best way to avoid danger is by staying away from potentially dangerous things. I can do that without hating or even disliking middle easterns or moose.

..
I agree with you on this part, actually.
I'm just grasping at straws to discern 'cautious racial avoidance' from actual bigotry, because I don't know what it's like to have either.


I've never really felt afraid of someone for the color of their skin etc. an' I've had unruly black kids 'menace' me in a school program for high-school dropouts (even though I graduated years earlier) as well as white kids who take knives to school, I'm guessing because they think being armed on a school campus is 'cool' (which I guess it is), and the guy who gave me rides to and from campus last semeseter is a good friend of mine, tall buff black guy, and also a devout christian-- and the most uncomfortable I ever got around him was when he talked to me, seriously, about his religious philosophy.
If a Muslim tries to impress their religious philosophy on me as much as he had back then I don't know enough to know whether I would be more uncomfortable with a Muslim doing it than a Christian.

Unless I am seriously forgetting something I have never done anything to H1CC. Might even be one of the few people that has said something I didn't like and I responded with a level head to. If no matter how cool, calm and collected I might be to someone they are still going to be on guard, what's the point of being C,C&C?

..
Actually, no, you didn't do or say anything to me to hurt me or otherwise seriously offend me.
I'm simply offended by who you are, not anything that you've done-- someone who doesn't believe 'transgendered' is even real, and thinks transgender people simply don't exist.

No one will ever convince me that it is perfectly normal to be a boy that thinks he is a girl.

..
Quite.
As far as I can tell about ya now, you can never understand what it's like to be 'born different', you know, you're this this and this but were born anatomically and physiologically with that that and that, virtually everyone treats you as that that and that, and then when you finally figure out you're this this and this now you have to try to explain it to everyone else who sees you as that t hat and that, and likely after having orignally been raised to believe you were that that and that, even if you knew you were this this and this in your heart (or wherever 'identity' comes from).


MadGypsy, if you must know, I haven't figured out my gender entirely yet either.
But I know I'm not just plain cis-male, and for the record, 'genderfluid' doesn't mean you're choosing to be whatever gender you want at different times, because again, it's not a 'choice'.


Also, I'm totally derailing the thread with the gender identity thing again aren't I? God dammit. What a way to spend my 100th post on these forums.
Where was I? Oh yeah. Dutch and Davers' and Madgypsy's points about whether you can realistiically 'save lives' from a club shooter.


I don't think more people carrying concealed weapons is the solution, and even if that would would work to thwart a mass shooter in the event that he starts to do mass-shooting, it's missing the point.
No one should have to carry a weapon on them at all times just to feel safe from the possibility of someone else coming in with a gun. Especially not at a Gay Nightclub hosting a 'latino night'. That sounds like a pretty cool place, if you're, you know, part of that kind of a community, and I imagine for people like that it's somewhere they find sanctuary and a safe haven from both everyday hassles and the ocassional outsiders' intolerances. I'm reminded of the other 'terrorist' who shot up the Black Church speciifcally because it was Blacks and that they were in a church-- because that was one of the few places they had to go where they could feel safe and welcomed, and be a part of their own community. I don't care what the Orlando shooter's motive was, when you come in and shoot & kill or injure 100+ people you're not just murdering people, you're robbing people of one of few places they could go to really live, again, a haven from daily stresses (it probably felt like family to them, havin' that place they could all hang out and be cool together), and a sub-community just for them. Um, I'm being redundant again. But my point is that the real wrongdoing is what you're taking from being able to be around, not the number of people you kill (or horribly wound, or take from families, or scar for life...). It defeats the purpose of even having that if you have to carry a gun on you in there. And, besides, in the panic & confusion of a shooting in-progress there's no guarantee that some vigilantee who just so happened to be 'carrying' is gonna shoot straight and be able to think calmly and clearly enough to take out the shooter, just the shooter, and take them out all the way, without futher complications, and without ruining the night for everyone else at best and possibly being mistaken as a shooter themself at worst. There's no winning in a situation like that. It makes far more sense just to try to prevent mass shootings before they happen, and that doesn't come from 'gun control' or from gun carry. Seriously. Both sides of the 'gun control' debate are in the wrong as to whether their side can help stop mass shootings.


Davers, didn't I just make the same comparison between the 'watch lists' and WWII's Japanese Internment Camps you're making now?
'cept yours was shorter and included more specific examples and sources. God dammit. I think I might know what my problem is...


I'm glad at least Davers shares my principalism on some of the same issues I pointed out a few posts back.
And finally, looks like even Mindz is trying to be supportive of me on the 'gender' thing, and while I haven't entirely forgotten how that came up, it seems a little weird my gender issues would come up in what is otherwise an entirely politcal thread about Terrorism-related issues (so sorry about that, I guess).