Economic Crisis

[R00k]

That actor playing hitler needs a tissue. Nice job!

[JPL]

@lxndr: The main motivation is Economic Crisis... The entity in France is a R&D center, hence it is cost center, that needs money to develop systems before being able to sell: we are in WiFi / Bluetooth IP development, so it needs a lot of money in order to have a competitive product, with a non negligible development cycle... and my company wants "quick" money with return on investment in a very short range (less than a year, not to say month)

Furthermore, my company has made 850 million USD benefit after tax in 2008. This year they are on a 1 billion USD basis already... so they have the capability to support us regarding the margin made last year.. and also regarding the growth of the company (+12% despite the crisis)... Unfortunately, we are not (quickly) profitable enough, and also we are not in their core business that is body-shopping / ressources out-sourcing...

BTW, our CEO behavior reminds me a lot the Hitler actor

[lxndr]

That's a radical way of cutting down the costs, and quite unfair for you and your coworkers. I guess if they didn't try to sell out your R&D entity to another company, which could have been profitable for them, it means they're planning to outsource the R&D as well. If true, that's not a good news for rich countries in general.

[Baker]

BTW, our CEO behavior reminds me a lot the Hitler actor

That's a radical way of cutting down the costs, and quite unfair for you and your coworkers. I guess if they didn't try to sell out your R&D entity to another company, which could have been profitable for them, it means they're planning to outsource the R&D as well. If true, that's not a good news for rich countries in general.

The way that the "capitalist" economy is setup the above is the proper behavior. Both for the laws, the interest holders (shareholders, management) and for customer expectations.

The problem is that there must be a superior trans-capitalistic economic model yet to be invented.

I know this because the "capitalist" system fails to maximize available resources. The "free market" economy cannot be avoided, but the way that companies use and government regulates the market is inherently flawed.

There has been information-communication rate spike that has accelerated in growth rate the last 15 years and I think within the next 10 years someone will come up with the "solution" to the "capitalist" system and come up with a trans-capitalist business model.

The main reasons that the "capitalist" model is flawed is that:

1) It rewards nonsensical short-term behavior. Like companies profiting from illogical business goals or very short-sighted ones (General Motors, mortgage companies in the US)

2) Fails to maximize labor. Case in point, many people who want to work and have talent and skill but the system cannot successfully utilize them in what they are best capable of doing. This is a utility failure in the utilitarianism sense (any system that fails to use all resources available is a failed system).

Capitalism often rewards stupid behavior (defined as encouraging behavior and business practices that are actually bad for the free market) and as a result it occasionally generates things like recessions or -- as I believe the current situation is --- worse.

Where is this trans-capitalistic system and what will it look like?

[Radec]

Personally its not affecting me too much. I'm just pissed off that the people who are meant to be in charge could mess up so much and why their still in power beggers sanity.

I suppose you could say I been looking after the pennies by buying old games instead of new ones. My only new game this year was Killzone 2 but since then I have bought Quake and Pokemon Red, both ancient games although the reason i got them was because they are great games, not because their cheap.

[Trinca]

Home > Forums > Quake Talk > Chat-O-Rama > Economic Crisis

Quake talk? where? wtf?

[Baker]

Home > Forums > Quake Talk > Chat-O-Rama > Economic Crisis

Quake talk? where? wtf?

You didn't need to edit your post, Trinca.

What good is a Quake forum without occasional deep conversations about things that have nothing to do with Quake? Sounds like a formula for blandness for such a thing to be absent!

They say off-topic conversations in a Quake forum won't make a difference in this world, but I know better

Besides, it is cool listening to JPL describe what is going on in his life and the behavior of his souless former employer.

[gnounc]

YouTube - Mortal Kombat - Liu Kang vs. Shang Tsung

sorry, "souless employer" made me think of my boss....and uh, from there this was only a short step.

[lxndr]

The way that the "capitalist" economy is setup the above is the proper behavior. Both for the laws, the interest holders (shareholders, management) and for customer expectations.

The problem is that there must be a superior trans-capitalistic economic model yet to be invented.

I know this because the "capitalist" system fails to maximize available resources. The "free market" economy cannot be avoided, but the way that companies use and government regulates the market is inherently flawed.

There has been information-communication rate spike that has accelerated in growth rate the last 15 years and I think within the next 10 years someone will come up with the "solution" to the "capitalist" system and come up with a trans-capitalist business model.

The main reasons that the "capitalist" model is flawed is that:

1) It rewards nonsensical short-term behavior. Like companies profiting from illogical business goals or very short-sighted ones (General Motors, mortgage companies in the US)

2) Fails to maximize labor. Case in point, many people who want to work and have talent and skill but the system cannot successfully utilize them in what they are best capable of doing. This is a utility failure in the utilitarianism sense (any system that fails to use all resources available is a failed system).

Capitalism often rewards stupid behavior (defined as encouraging behavior and business practices that are actually bad for the free market) and as a result it occasionally generates things like recessions or -- as I believe the current situation is --- worse.

Where is this trans-capitalistic system and what will it look like?

May be something between the UNO and the WTO on a political plan, and a redefined BIS (Bank for International Settlements) on monetary issues.

I believe that free market should only be free for free countries, countries sharing a common set of rules, economical, social and environmental. That's what the EU is trying to build since half a century, but it's quite difficult as populism is never far away.

It wouldn't stop assholes being assholes, but I think it'd make the world a better place.

The main drawback is that it would slow down economical development of non-free countries, which is often the first step before an ethical development.

[Baker]

May be something between the UNO and the WTO on a political plan, and a redefined BIS (Bank for International Settlements) on monetary issues.

I believe that free market should only be free for free countries, countries sharing a common set of rules, economical, social and environmental. That's what the EU is trying to build since half a century, but it's quite difficult as populism is never far away.

It wouldn't stop assholes being assholes, but I think it'd make the world a better place.

The main drawback is that it would slow down economical development of non-free countries, which is often the first step before an ethical development.

(Disclaimer: some of this might be different in Europe. You guys have smaller governments and they are closer to the people and therefore more responsive and efficient. I live in the USA and I'm talking about what I see here. I have no idea what is going on in Europe (I do know that the EU and some EU countries keep a far better eye on anti-competitive behavior.))

Well, governments are inherently semi-corrupt and aloof and serve mostly the politicians and the power structure.

I don't think anything a government organization would do would solve anything.

But the current "capitalist" system and the laws are setup for companies to try to achieve monopoly status or semi-monopoly status, often at the expense of all other things.

I think with some "adjustments" (openness) the free market could flourish in a way not presently possible.

Case in point, supply chains are often virtual monopolies that reward the gatekeeper. This limits competition and increases prices. Why allow supply chain monopolies?

An example: some new company could offer, say, a new soft drink but without distribution how can it be sold? There are exclusivity contracts with nearly the whole supply chain in the country in every market.

Another example: many "paper and pen" processes have been replaced obviously with information systems who then act as a gatekeeper as to functionality and establish a virtual monopoly protected with contracts and copyright law and adds to the total cost of everything instead of actually "helping". These systems often both increase expenses AND make it more difficult for businesses to change how they do things.

Plus government ends up effectively subsidizing this behavior by adding more and more "paperwork" -- hence rewarding these companies by giving them additional "lockdown".

And then in manufacturing there are patents (sometimes on silly things).

None of the above is free market behavior and acts as friction (making things inefficient and anti-competitive).

And then there is the general way the employer-employee relationship works in this country where a employee loses many rights and freedoms for a job that in this day and age often doesn't resemble "lifetime employment". More non-free market behavior.

And the way that bidding on government contracts work.

And the way that Google books can -- via being sued of all things and settling -- can manage to obtain a legal monopoly on use of copyrighted material (at least in the USA).

From an economic sense, we have a very weird "free market" economy that has 10 levels of suck in it.

I read something hilarious the other day where some newspaper did an article saying "Is paying for kid's college worth it in the recession?"

Why does a college education cost so much? Shouldn't they be more efficient at it than in the past given several decades of educational experience and with the internet available and so forth? Doesn't this mean that they should be so efficient that the prices should have fallen instead of being 8 times as high as a couple of decades ago?

My point is that institutions, government and corporations have drifted FAR AWAY from the free market principles over the years instead of gravitating towards the free market principles.

Even the things they have tried to regulate they mostly get a big F on. They were supposed to continually raise the gas mileage standards on vehicles so they would be more fuel efficient and then they copped out and let the domestic automakers sell trucks and SUVs meanwhile added some ethanol requirement for the farm lobby.

And sometimes if you step back and look at the whole mess, it is rather astounding.

Yes this is a rather strong critique of the present situation, but I'll just say that it blows my mind how messed up things are now and I do at times wonder if anyone has ever been in the driver's seat or do things just gravitate where ever the wind blows?

[gnounc]

Things GRAVITATE to where the money is. Like a bloodhound in a whorehouse.

I find the degredation in the past few decades horrific.
You cant even do anything GOOD without severe govornment opression in many cases.
I read that the auto industry is trying to put a tax on electric vehicles, and that the electric company is trying to make you pay for using their electric grid if you have a wind farm...thats right, if YOU are creating energy, they want YOU to pay for something that YOUR taxes paid of YEARS ago. What kind of bullshit is that?!
You want to be economical? You want to help out? Well thats fine and dandy, but we'd like you to pay for it as well. And pay dearly.

That is the kind of bullshit that just blows my mind. I believe firmly in what america SAYS its about, but the reality of it makes me sick to my stomach.

[JPL]

In France, if you are able to generate electrical energy, EDF (that is the french official provider) has obligation to buy the exceeding power you are generating. So it encourages a lot of people to have their own generator (solar generally), and it contributes a lot to green energy development. I think this is a good thing.

I also concur that everything gravitates arond where the money is. It is a matter of margin: less cost, more profit, more margin, better results. And stock holders are fan of margin... India and China are the countries to go before people work for peanuts, but for peanut you may have bad quality stuff. I have made some benchmarking with colleagues of mine during these 4 past years regarding our "european" performances versus Indian engineers performances. globally they are in the range of 3 up to 50 time slower than us, with pure crappy low quality written RTL code... I knwo that not all of these guys are that bad (I met very strong skilled Indian engineer), but most of them are in this range... weird.. So the only good reason to go their, and develop new products there, is because they are cheaper...

So overall the problem is the system itself, and particularly stock holders behavior: I compare them to pitbulls. Give them a piece of meat each day, and you are safe... just forget one day, and they eat you one arm... That's the way it is...

Anyway, several papers have been published on our case... we are heavily "promoting" Wipro behaviour around the world, just to show how such this nice company is behaving with their "so important individual" employees... bullshit...

[Baker]

That is the kind of bullshit that just blows my mind. I believe firmly in what america SAYS its about, but the reality of it makes me sick to my stomach.

Kapowie!

I also concur that everything gravitates arond where the money is. It is a matter of margin: less cost, more profit, more margin, better results. And stock holders are fan of margin... India and China are the countries to go before people work for peanuts, but for peanut you may have bad quality stuff. I have made some benchmarking with colleagues of mine during these 4 past years regarding our "european" performances versus Indian engineers performances. globally they are in the range of 3 up to 50 time slower than us, with pure crappy low quality written RTL code... I knwo that not all of these guys are that bad (I met very strong skilled Indian engineer), but most of them are in this range... weird.. So the only good reason to go their, and develop new products there, is because they are cheaper...

So overall the problem is the system itself, and particularly stock holders behavior: I compare them to pitbulls. Give them a piece of meat each day, and you are safe... just forget one day, and they eat you one arm... That's the way it is...

Anyway, several papers have been published on our case... we are heavily "promoting" Wipro behaviour around the world, just to show how such this nice company is behaving with their "so important individual" employees... bullshit...

There isn't any motivation for long-term behavior with the way corporations work these days.

And what governments don't realize is that with global corporations, some of them get to behave like super-governmental entities (beyond government control of any kind) and don't act with vested interest of the employees, the communities and so on.

This is why I suggested just a small amount of "protectionism" might help.

Case in point, it is my understanding that China (and maybe many South American countries) will not allow factories and sometimes even subsidiaries and such to be majority owned by foreign corporations.

This increases the accountability to the community.

Not that this model would work in, say, the USA. Our federal government is astoundingly large and isolated and has it's own culture where they only think about and know about what is going on in Washington D.C.

In Europe, I do like how some of the smaller countries (Netherlands, Sweden, ..) very much have a participatory government due to the small size. In the USA, our government just does whatever they want and has no sensory perception or efficiency.

Anyway, several papers have been published on our case... we are heavily "promoting" Wipro behaviour around the world, just to show how such this nice company is behaving with their "so important individual" employees... bullshit...

Corporations just promote themselves as whatever the people in the marketing department and the executives want to do.

True, false, outrageous lies ... doesn't matter.

Sigh.

[JPL]

Corporations just promote themselves as whatever the people in the marketing department and the executives want to do.

True, false, outrageous lies ... doesn't matter.

Not really actually. Wipro, and particularly Azim Premji our Indy CEO, is particularly proud of the nice image they built during these last 10-15 years. A nice image of a company that is taking care a lot of his employees, that his taking care of their customer, that has a certain idea of the integrity, of the ethic in the business,etc... etc... but it is like a Microsoft demo: once you have bought it, then the "dead blue screen" appears, and the "bugs" start...

I know that in India there are some people that are so depressed they tried to suicide... just due to the pressure of their managers... so regarding how they behave with us, considering us as less than shit, you can easily understand that the Wipro offical message his far away from the reality...
I also know today what the company may give us as a shitty "package"... almost less than a ruined company, despite their 850M$ benefitst after tax last year... All the other major companies in the semiconductor area that are firing people are at least giving 1 year of salary as a package... not less...
They also didn't officially communicate to our customer what is happening, and some of them learnt it reading press papers: is it a normal behavior for a company that claims customer is the most important ? I sit a normal ethical business behavior ? I don't think so..
And the most hallucinating, they would like us to continue to do "business as usual", like if nothing wrong was happening ? Are they kinding ? Are they stupid ? Or are they thinking we are stupid ? wtf !!

Wipro just want quick money, and fast return on investment... that is all... they are like the pitbulls I mentionned in a previous post...

So mainly the goal for us is to show the real face of Azim Premji and Wipro. Our goal is to show their real face, and that they are all liars, nothing more... Thus, when I said we are "promoting" the company... I was very sarcastic... believe me

[JPL]

Some more info I learnt today: Wipro has picked 12Meuros of financial governmental help. 5.2Meuros have been paid earlier (on Wipro's request) just announcing the decision to shutdown the activity in France... thiefs... take the money and run...
And then they still dare to claim about their "ethical behavior"...