Weapon and Player Spawns

[R00k]

...moved this out of the league thread...

I spoke to r00k about it last night, he wants to make it so we can vote-enable both 25 second weapon respawn, and also vote-enable team base spawns instead of random spawns.

The team-based votable i was thinking sequential spawns
It's true you can learn the spawn order and use this for strategy. Also, imho, with sequential spawns there would be less occasion of you spawning where u died.
I did create a deathmatchmode 4 last fall, that has 20 second respawns, but you cant retake any weapon you already have. Make the vote menu behave like settimer, which shows a selection of times. This could be used to tweak games with more or less players. Either way in most cases 20 seconds could be used or 30 seconds could be used.

[Rampage]

...moved this out of the league thread...



The team-based votable i was thinking sequential spawns
It's true you can learn the spawn order and use this for strategy. Also, imho, with sequential spawns there would be less occasion of you spawning where u died.
I did create a deathmatchmode 4 last fall, that has 20 second respawns, but you cant retake any weapon you already have. Make the vote menu behave like settimer, which shows a selection of times. This could be used to tweak games with more or less players. Either way in most cases 20 seconds could be used or 30 seconds could be used.

I think just shedding a few seconds off the weapon respawn timer is better. We should still let people who have weapons take more weapons so there is 'map control' to an extent; this is an integral part of every CTF game and can turn the tide in any team's favor.

Taking the respawn time down to 25-20 seconds will create more of a balance, and allow the other team to quickly regain composure and control in the game. It also ensures fast hook'ers have less time to retrieve weapons and get around the entire map. Another issue is that with armor spawning faster, the weapon doesn't spawn at the same time and therefore you just have armor which really doesn't serve much of a purpose since you're most likely going to die anyway.

In terms of the player spawns, team base and random spawns both have their pros and cons. I think team base spawns create more of a balance and require more teamwork and communication. For example if you and the enemy flag carrier both died, you both have an equal chance to get the flag by hooking and racing each other to get it back, or simply telling your teammates where the flag is down. Forcing people to improve their hook skill is essential to improving the overall talent base in CTF.

I also believe team base spawns ensure we have a more realistic idea of "true kills" in a game. Instead of a player racking up 50-60 kills with more than 60% of his kills coming from random spawns, he will be forced to either hunt people down or fight people rl vs rl etc.

I don't see much positives to random spawns other than getting lucky and ending up next to some dropped packs/flags and retrieving it for a team cap which does not require skill. Random spawns also allow players to be closer to weapons in certain instances. For the most part all I've seen random spawns serve is an opportunity to kill feed an opponent with quad/rl/shaft the second you spawn, and increase the opposing team's score.

[Frenzy]

I think just shedding a few seconds off the weapon respawn timer is better. We should still let people who have weapons take more weapons so there is 'map control' to an extent; this is an integral part of every CTF game and can turn the tide in any team's favor.

Taking the respawn time down to 25-20 seconds will create more of a balance, and allow the other team to quickly regain composure and control in the game. It also ensures fast hook'ers have less time to retrieve weapons and get around the entire map. Another issue is that with armor spawning faster, the weapon doesn't spawn at the same time and therefore you just have armor which really doesn't serve much of a purpose since you're most likely going to die anyway.

In terms of the player spawns, team base and random spawns both have their pros and cons. I think team base spawns create more of a balance and require more teamwork and communication. For example if you and the enemy flag carrier both died, you both have an equal chance to get the flag by hooking and racing each other to get it back, or simply telling your teammates where the flag is down. Forcing people to improve their hook skill is essential to improving the overall talent base in CTF.

I also believe team base spawns ensure we have a more realistic idea of "true kills" in a game. Instead of a player racking up 50-60 kills with more than 60% of his kills coming from random spawns, he will be forced to either hunt people down or fight people rl vs rl etc.

I don't see much positives to random spawns other than getting lucky and ending up next to some dropped packs/flags and retrieving it for a team cap which does not require skill. Random spawns also allow players to be closer to weapons in certain instances. For the most part all I've seen random spawns serve is an opportunity to kill feed an opponent with quad/rl/shaft the second you spawn, and increase the opposing team's score.

I'm opposed to taking out the random spawn. The close games we've been having, the great games that we've encountered over the years, they're because of this. "Don't fix it if it isn't broken" comes to my mind.

Tal you say it doesn't require skill, so what, right? Breaks are a part of the game we play for too. CTF2M8 is a good example. With team-based spawning, we're all fucked, pardon my french. The challenge to get your capture needs to stay just as much of a challenge, or the game will become a bore (especially to me). In theory, you're just making it easier for blowouts.

I don't wanna sound like a crybaby, but I hate the idea of taking away random spawns.

However, I do agree with decreasing the spawn time of the weapons to keep up with our pace

[Rampage]

I'm opposed to taking out the random spawn. The close games we've been having, the great games that we've encountered over the years, they're because of this. "Don't fix it if it isn't broken" comes to my mind.

Tal you say it doesn't require skill, so what, right? Breaks are a part of the game we play for too. CTF2M8 is a good example. With team-based spawning, we're all fucked, pardon my french. The challenge to get your capture needs to stay just as much of a challenge, or the game will become a bore (especially to me). In theory, you're just making it easier for blowouts.

I don't wanna sound like a crybaby, but I hate the idea of taking away random spawns.

However, I do agree with decreasing the spawn time of the weapons to keep up with our pace

That's why I said it has it's pros and cons.

You have to remember it also causes for a lot of kill feeding, and helps the other team rack up scores. I've seen games finish out in extremely close scores with a few points apart, and who knows how many times random spawns effected the outcome of scores during these games. We've seen this, and therefore cannot predict if a game would turn out in a blowout. It would definitely be a bit more predictable though, you're right. The fact I can random spawn and steal a weapon to turn the tide also effects the game just as much as killing me off the spawn does. I was just throwing out an idea so we'd have a greater sense of "true kills" instead of boasting about a 40-60 kill ratio.

[monoz]

please dont mess with the mod...it has been around for years for a reason

[Hitman]

In terms of the player spawns, team base and random spawns both have their pros and cons. I think team base spawns create more of a balance and require more teamwork and communication. For example if you and the enemy flag carrier both died, you both have an equal chance to get the flag by hooking and racing each other to get it back, or simply telling your teammates where the flag is down. Forcing people to improve their hook skill is essential to improving the overall talent base in CTF.

I also believe team base spawns ensure we have a more realistic idea of "true kills" in a game. Instead of a player racking up 50-60 kills with more than 60% of his kills coming from random spawns, he will be forced to either hunt people down or fight people rl vs rl etc.

I don't see much positives to random spawns other than getting lucky and ending up next to some dropped packs/flags and retrieving it for a team cap which does not require skill. Random spawns also allow players to be closer to weapons in certain instances. For the most part all I've seen random spawns serve is an opportunity to kill feed an opponent with quad/rl/shaft the second you spawn, and increase the opposing team's score.

Good ideas, I like the weapons spawning 5-10 seconds faster. However, the player spawns must not be changed. There has to be some 'luck' involved. CTF has always been nice the way it is - and they say you should never change a winning bet.

You also have probably not considering something if we do the players spawning only at their base. What if it is a small map like - ctf8, ctf1 - I could easily - we could assign 2 players in their base with full ammo, just waiting for them to kill them one after the other, while the third player runs flags. At least the spawns before were random and could be at different ends of the map, this they will be right next to each other in a known perimeter. If we also 'run weapons' and keep taking the opponents base's RL - put yourself in the losing team's position. Not too nice eh?

[Rampage]

please dont mess with the mod...it has been around for years for a reason

It's been around for years, but the servers have been empty for years as well.

[Rampage]

Good ideas, I like the weapons spawning 5-10 seconds faster. However, the player spawns must not be changed. There has to be some 'luck' involved. CTF has always been nice the way it is - and they say you should never change a winning bet.

You also have probably not considering something if we do the players spawning only at their base. What if it is a small map like - ctf8, ctf1 - I could easily - we could assign 2 players in their base with full ammo, just waiting for them to kill them one after the other, while the third player runs flags. At least the spawns before were random and could be at different ends of the map, this they will be right next to each other in a known perimeter. If we also 'run weapons' and keep taking the opponents base's RL - put yourself in the losing team's position. Not too nice eh?

Random spawns can be memorized just as easily as in-base spawns.

There is a pattern to random spawns in a certain order.

You're right though, this wasn't a well-thought out idea. Like I said, I was only throwing out suggestions to get feedback, this is what I wanted.

It seems there is a lot of positive feedback for the quicker weapon re-spawn, Mostly everyone I've talked to seems to think 30 seconds is a tad too much and needs to equal or be close to the armor spawn time.

[Spoon]

Yeah I'm fine with a little quicker respawn on weps, but if you take away random spawns and have everyone spawn back at their own base everytime, I'll probably just quit the tourn cause that's a horribly stupid idea.

[Disco]

im ok with the weapons as long as it is not where you cant repickup the same weapon you already have. i AM NOT for that. That means everyone runs around with RL/LG. Im not down for that. There should be a little map control in CTF.

[Frenzy]

Well, I guess you could set you up a server with the team spawns Tal

[Rampage]

Well, I guess you could set you up a server with the team spawns Tal

r00k is gonna make both things vote-enabled.

weapon spawn time is obviously the better choice

[clouddeadd]

God that is a horrible idea. Team based spawns... please don't even make that vote enabled... I feel like ppl are trying to newbify the game and make it easier or something? If you want your fights to always be fair go play rocket arena... and I agree, "if it aint broke don't fix it". Too many issues with team based spawns such as if you're in a fight with flags and die, whose ever base it is.. they're gonna spawn in there right next to everyhting... etc Also I think that would cause more spawn kills if the enemy is in your base... and you just keep spawning there everytime you die in basically the same spot... weapon spawn time: I'd rather not change it, but I'd also be willing to test it out... -hw

It isn't too late.. Please Save Our Quake - www.pleasesavenetquake.com

[PapaSmurf]

I'm confused as to what you guys are saying you want. Do you want random spawns ala DM CRMOD or do you want it the way it used to be, spawning in sequential order? Either way, it's better than team based spawning.

One thing, though, E4M3 needs some more spawns. Then again, e4m3 should never, ever be played

[R00k]

twingods! FTW! only has 2 quads 8 spawns for teams 8 spawns for midfield respawns

Do you think VWEP support, (enemies are carrying the model of the gun in hand), should be added to 3wave?