Arizona guy being sued by illegal immigrants.

[MH]

So forgive me for being European and stuff, where we don't bear arms, where death penalties are illegal and unconstitutional, and where we have complete and unrestricted freedom to travel to, live in, and work in each other's countries as we see fit.

Which is the "land of the free" now?

[Dreadlorde]

Wtf does this have to do with media?

[Mindf!3ldzX]

hell id try my best to run to this country as well, if i was in most of these people positions. You guys don't understand how these other places are toward people and how hard it is just to be able to get close enough to this country to flee here. Home of the free heart of the brave, and just so you know i have family that fought in 3 wars to keep this country great... and you can't without an honest heart look at a veteran and tell him he done something wrong and diss his grand children for being from other countries and if you look at me and say something like that your mouth will come off your face period.

It's not an issue of "Being from somewhere else" , the saying "a means to an end" sums it up pretty well. It's not where your at or where your going,its how you got, or are getting there.

See, tons of people try to turn these types of things into Racism or other nonsense like mhquake and his "freedom" logic when its pretty cut and dry,more on that in a minute....

I've been caught trespassing on private property before, and let me tell you being held at gunpoint,because you was tresspassing,while you wait on the authorities to arrive, is nothing out of the ordinairy. That is your incentive to sit down and shut up,not getting a hole blasted in your ass.I fortunately got off scott free due to the fact that I was a minor along with all my friends,so the whole gunpoint thing caused the owner to drop his charges.

Back to MH's comment. puh - lease tell me your joking right?
WWI

By summer 1918, a million American soldiers, or "doughboys" as they were often called, of the American Expeditionary Force were in Europe under the command of John J. Pershing, with 25,000 more arriving every week. The failure of Germany's spring offensive meant they had exhausted their manpower reserves and were unable to launch attacks or even defend their lines, meanwhile the German home front revolted and a new German government signed a conditional surrender, the Armistice, ending the war on November 11, 1918.

WWII

The US entered the war, like many other nations, as a country struggling with economic and social problems and unsure of its identity. It emerged as one of the two undisputed superpowers along with the Soviet Union, and unlike the Soviet Union, the US homeland was virtually untouched by the ravages of war. The importance of US military and political power in world affairs since 1945 cannot be overstated; the outcome of the war and the fortunes of the victors have shaped world events to this day.

sourced from Military history of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Enjoy your freedom, because the USA helped pay for it

[Mindf!3ldzX]

Wtf does this have to do with media?

What, the New York Times isnt a form of media? fuck,my bad.

[Dreadlorde]

What, the New York Times isnt a form of media? fuck,my bad.

It's Obvious You Won't Survive By Your Wits Alone.

Media
Screenshots, art/drawings, demos, and movies

[Mindf!3ldzX]

HAH, well i'm still breathing so no need to concern yourself

[Dreadlorde]

So forgive me for being European and stuff, where we don't bear arms,

Why would you not want the right to bear arms?

where death penalties are illegal and unconstitutional

Death Penalties can remove unneeded wasting of tax payer money on Sick Fucks in prison who have shown that they do not deserve life.

and where we have complete and unrestricted freedom to travel to, live in, and work in each other's countries as we see fit.

You can do that in the U.S. too, just s/countries/states/g.

Which is the "land of the free" now?

Seeing that we don't have camera's at every street corner, in our homes, and up our asses, it would seem logical to say the the U.S. is more free.

[tical]

America....these colors dont run.....

[metchsteekle]

It emerged as one of the two undisputed superpowers along with the Soviet Union

if we could have only gotten along with the soviet union, then we could have

RRRRULED THE WOURRRLD!!

//but it turned out Stalin wan not the best guy and when Khrushchev De-nouched him as a terroristtic death lord that's when thing revolted and fell apart more but then Sergei Korolev designed the R7-ICBM and the (Prostreishy) Sputnik starting the arms race and space race.. the rest is recent history

[spooker]

wow i'm surprised.....i was expecting a truckload of abuse in response to my comment. come on guys, not even one insult?????? after all, "few things harden hearts and soften minds like immigration" -the economist

[foq]

So forgive me for being European and stuff, where we don't bear arms, where death penalties are illegal and unconstitutional, and where we have complete and unrestricted freedom to travel to, live in, and work in each other's countries as we see fit.

Which is the "land of the free" now?

The right to bear arms is nescessary to the security of a free state. When the government becomes opressive and the people don't have the right to bear arms, the government won't have a strong enough opposing force to stop its bullshit. That and the fact that in a country where firearms are illegal, only the criminals will have weapons, therefore when you get your ass robbed by a guy with a gun, he has a huge advantage over you.

What's so bad about the death penalty? If people don't want to recieve the death penalty, then they shouldn't do the stupid shit that warrants the death penalty. Like killing other people. Aww, he murdered 30 people but let's just give him life in prison and drain resources (money, space in jail, etc) for him, cause the death penalty would be all too creul.

Complete and unrestricted freedom to travel between countries eh? The United States is a pretty big place, and we can freely travel between our states just like you can with your countries. Due to the physical size of the United States, there are many places to go to get a taste of a different culture if you wish. Additionaly, because of reserved and concurrent powers, laws vary between state to state so if you don't like the laws in your state you can move to another state with different laws.

wow i'm surprised.....i was expecting a truckload of abuse in response to my comment. come on guys, not even one insult?????? after all, "few things harden hearts and soften minds like immigration" -the economist

Well that's because I have the ability to hold an actual debate with somebody without being an asshole.

[Mindf!3ldzX]

I work in immigration so I think about this stuff a lot. I could go on and on, so I'll try to restrain myself.
I looked up the law on citizen's arrests in Arizona. It states:

A private person may make an arrest:
1. When the person to be arrested has in his presence committed a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace, or a felony.
2. When a felony has been in fact committed and he has reasonable ground to believe that the person to be arrested has committed it.

Arizona Revised Statues, chapter 13, section 3884

It sounds like the crimes of most of the 12,000 people he detained were limited to jumping the border and trespassing. Neither of these is a felony, nor does either of them amount to "a breach of the peace". For the law on entering without inspection, see United States Code, title 8, section 1325. For Arizona trespassing laws, see Arizona Revised Statutes, chapter 15. Since these crimes are neither felonies nor breaches of the peace, he cannot legally do a citizens arrest and he is indeed violating their civil rights. He is apparently taking out his anger at the few who damaged his property on the whole lot of them.

I find the thought of private individuals taking it upon themselves to systematically and regularly enforce the law to be a pretty terrifying prospect. This guy is armed, has no training in law enforcement, and clearly hasn't taken the time to research the legality of his holding 12,000 people at gunpoint. I don't think illegal activity should be combated by illegal enforcement techniques--just as I disagreed with Bush's adoption of extremism in the fight against extremism. However, people who rant about "illegals" usually don't care much about the law (research Joe Arpaio), and I think are generally scapegoating and cloaking their racism in a thin legalistic veneer. From a technical perspective, the term "illegal immigrant" is meaningless. There are many different degrees of illegality, and many "illegals" could easily become legal if they just took the time to fill out some forms. The law does not lump them all together, and it's unfortunate the political debate can't encompass such distinctions. Oh yeah, and the constitution applies to all people in the country, not just American citizens. Rook, you're wrong when you say that criminals have no rights.

That said, the man is obviously responding to the Border Patrol's inability to police our border. So, for me it points to the need for comprehensive immigration reform.

Well allow me to retort

First, I'll address your comment on "private individuals taking it upon themselves to systematically and regularly enforce the law to be a pretty terrifying prospect."

This guy is not out citizen arresting jay walkers,reporting speeders,or being "Barney Fife" as it would seem your making this guy out to be like. He's not the culprit. From the moment a mexican,an indian, or a brazilian,or whoever....ethnicity doesnt matter, the moment someone tries to use private property to enter this country illegally, and this guy has had prior problems that cost his buisness money, is in no way obligated to sit on his hands and just continue to let the United States non-policy of illegal immigrants continue to be unenforced and unchecked. Is he supposed to just let them cross his property and let illegal activity's occur?Maybe since you think he's completely in the wrong he should embrace them crossing the border on his property and start a human smuggling service.

I need not say any more,thats pretty obv. you have plenty of brains and fairly little common sense for protecting ones investments..... total newb.

[spooker]

Thanks Mindz, that's more like what I was expecting.

I've showed with solid research that his actions are illegal. In this case, I think it's fairly clear cut. The law represents the closest thing to a commonly agreed upon moral compass for society. The legislators of Arizona are not subject to your feelings. He claims to be fighting illegal activity in the form of trespassing and entry without inspection; yet he's using illegal techniques. I think it's clear that you can't fight illegality with a different form of illegality. The fact that you yourself were held at gunpoint (sounds like illegally, depending on where you were) doesn't justify his doing it to other people. I've also been held at gunpoint, though unlike your situation, it was by a trained law enforcement officer. It is terrifying and I would not want anyone else to go through that experience for trivial reasons. I'm firmly opposed to the rule of the gun. You're in Ohio, correct? Understand that feelings about guns in Massachusetts are much different than feelings about guns in Ohio. I've never encountered a privately owned gun in Massachusetts but I visit Ohio every summer and do plenty of shooting when I'm there. I'm also opposed to the militarization of American society represented by the creation of the Department of Homeland Security--both the name and it's actions imply that America is a warzone that needs to be secured. I don't buy it.

To put this in the wider perspective of the border area, with the ongoing construction of a border wall there's been a lot of property conflicts, and the government claiming eminent domain. Homeland Security has been granted extremely sweeping powers to get the authorized bit of the wall built, and it's been shaking a lot of people up. If these aliens are such a nuisance to him that he's willing to terrorize 12,000 people, don't you think he could sell his land and buy land elsewhere, instead of taking the law into his own hands? He would not be the only person whose life has been disrupted by the border. I'll also mention that in some Scandinavian countries, which most people know are more peaceful and balanced than the U.S. (we have the highest incarceration rate in the world, and even more prisoners than China), there's a reserved right of people to pass through rural private property and even camp, as long as they erase their tracks and don't damage anything. It sounds like under that regime, 11,995 of this guy's victims wouldn't have been trespassing.

I think that a person's failure to possess appropriate papers like a green card doesn't revoke their humanity. Even if you commit a crime Mindz, I don't think you become sub-human and an abomination. Even illegal immigrants are human beings and should not be abandoned to vigilante justice. I work with our immigration system every day and I can tell you that it does not work well enough to be a sufficient basis on which to stake all the human rights of the estimated 10 million "illegal immigrants" in America.

[Dreadlorde]

The right to bear arms is nescessary to the security of a free state. When the government becomes opressive and the people don't have the right to bear arms, the government won't have a strong enough opposing force to stop its bullshit. That and the fact that in a country where firearms are illegal, only the criminals will have weapons, therefore when you get your ass robbed by a guy with a gun, he has a huge advantage over you.

What's so bad about the death penalty? If people don't want to recieve the death penalty, then they shouldn't do the stupid shit that warrants the death penalty. Like killing other people. Aww, he murdered 30 people but let's just give him life in prison and drain resources (money, space in jail, etc) for him, cause the death penalty would be all too creul.

Complete and unrestricted freedom to travel between countries eh? The United States is a pretty big place, and we can freely travel between our states just like you can with your countries. Due to the physical size of the United States, there are many places to go to get a taste of a different culture if you wish. Additionaly, because of reserved and concurrent powers, laws vary between state to state so if you don't like the laws in your state you can move to another state with different laws.



Well that's because I have the ability to hold an actual debate with somebody without being an asshole.

The voice of reason and logic.

[R00k]

Well, Spooker if in fact by Arizona law, that a man cannot protect his property, then this is bullshit. If it were a horde of animals they would have been shot.
Let's turn this AROUND. Say the news headlines read, "An Arizona man has helped 12,000 persons, illegally enter the country", now how would you stand?
Maybe he should be selling backpacks with survival stuff and hand out maps and maybe have a little QuikyMart for them to buy beer, then send them on their way so they can become American't just like the rest of us.