Work in (slow) progress

[Hazza]

AWESOME!

By the way, if I may critique, the only thing your maps tend to need more of are SECRETS!
I was kinda shocked that Castle of Dark Ages only had 4, considering its size- I personally would have had at least 9 to 14!

Also, what are you thinking in terms of a finale? I loved the Cyberdemons from Event Horizon (although a bit heavy on hitpoints, especially considering there was a group of them). For a horde battle I'd recommend having lots of cover, but spawning ALL the monsters at once (with more lightweights, and/or a lot of flying ones) to come after you!

[JPL]

AWESOME!

By the way, if I may critique, the only thing your maps tend to need more of are SECRETS!
I was kinda shocked that Castle of Dark Ages only had 4, considering its size- I personally would have had at least 9 to 14!

Actually there are also a few secrets in this map.. and I will ertainely add some more, as the map has now also a "Certain" size. It will also depends a lot of the gameplay... Nevertheless, I do not want secrets to be needed for finishing the map, rather more as exploration bonuses ... BTW, if you want map with lot of secrets (14 if I remember well), try "Fort Driant"... you'll have plenty to find: exploration is highly rewarded in htis map
Check it here: Func_Msgboard: Q1SP: Fort Driant

Also, what are you thinking in terms of a finale? I loved the Cyberdemons from Event Horizon (although a bit heavy on hitpoints, especially considering there was a group of them). For a horde battle I'd recommend having lots of cover, but spawning ALL the monsters at once (with more lightweights, and/or a lot of flying ones) to come after you!

As I am using Quoth, there will not be CyberDemon... but Vermis maybe, Gugs for sure.... and others... though...
However, I still don't know whether the final will have hordes of monsters, or reduced number of strongest monsters (fiends + gugs + shamblers + vores). Today gameplay is far away to be finished, and I need to add health/ammos/armor just before the final, in order to help the player having fun there: I hope it to be epically difficult

Anyway, thanks a lot for your support

[Hazza]

Awesome stuff- I'll give Fort Driant a try now that I've got a new machine (I did try playing it on my last computer, but it, having the processing power of a gerbil's running wheel, couldn't handle it, nor anything more than the original Quake levels- since got a better computer that can run anything- so it should be good to go).

I like your ideas, some bits of advice with the Quoth monsters;

-Gugs are best supported by ranged attackers like Vores and Death Lords, even better by flying monsters (Night Gaunts supporting a few Gugs would be quite a scary situation!). It turns out from experience that Gugs do not play nicely with monsters that try to charge in for melee, as the splash from their projectile hits anything that happened to be near you at the time (as I found with a demo level in Quoth). In short, the less likely they are to run up to you and get caught by the slime bombs, the less likely the monsters of the arena will all gang up on the gugs.

-On that note, Death Lords and Night Gaunts in general are quite underused in numbers, and they are probably at the very top for keeping players on their toes.

-If Vores, Shamblers, Night Gaunts or Death Lords are involved, it would be good to break up the arena into something that gives lots of cover and encourages the player to be evasive and play cat-and-mouse. It also means you can really up the nastiness as the player's guerilla tactics can handle odds that would totally kill him otherwise. Not to mention this same cover will also hide any incoming fiends, knights and Shamblers trying to sneak up on you.

-Also, try throwing some of the weaker monsters into the fray in some battles- having some grunts blasting you from above while the fiends route you from cover might make an interesting battle! It's especially good for ridiculously tough monsters like Eddies.

[Hazza]

As for secrets, I'm impressed you treat them as an optional bonus and not something the player needs to get ahead.

Some pointers for secrets....

Don't forget the plasmagun! As a secret weapon of course, but personally, I'd forget the lightning gun entirely and just leave some cells lying around as a hint to keep an eye out for it! Keep in mind, that the Plasmagun is THE secret. It's better than all of the other items in the game combined. Make sure it's not too late in the game though as it's more fun to use it on the monsters than save it for the boss, so anywhere after half-time should be fine (hidden stashes of cells can always be found much later so the player doesn't just go on a plasma rampage)

On that note, try putting a well-hidden early rocket launcher into the mix. You'd be surprised how nicely and fun it fits in (also, so long as there are no grenades early on, as it has a very limited ammo supply, you won't have to worry about the game turning ridiculously easy- not that it matters near the start anyway).

On a similar note, might I add that I'm impressed you're one of the few people to place some reasonable guns nice and early in your maps- so long as the super-shotgun is within reach at the start and the nailgun not far behind, it's all good! Having to do anything with the vanilla shotgun besides shoot two dogs before upgrading to double-barrel immediately is my limit these days!

-I'd hide all Quads or invulnerabilities too. Even in major battles it would be better if they were not a part of it, but hidden somewhere just before (or just inside) the room, so the players can get by purely without even knowing about them, but any players really down on health, ammo or luck can poke around for secrets and get the hidden assistance!

Your secrets themselves are very well thought out- they're both natural enough to be hidden from ordinary view- but by layout, conspicuous enough to catch the attention by anybody keeping a keen eye out for them, which is exactly the way it should be. The only thing I'd do is make sure the trigger for them isn't too hard to find and is in the same room or area, and also immediately activatable (or if otherwise from any of these things, a cryptic 'access denied' message for finding the secret too early could give a hint that you're supposed to do somewhere else first or keep a certain detail in mind further ahead so people don't forget about it).

[JPL]

Well, thanks for all the advices...

Actually, I don't know whether the end battle will be Hordes-like or something else.
Today there are not that much monsters, but even myself I have problem to finish the map till the GK door... (till where there are monsters)...
The map is supposed to be the "Gateway to Hell" (This is its title btw)... so do not expect that much health and ammo... but some traps on each corner... and some brand new ambient sounds for the scariness...
I'm trying to do something different but huge map with 500 monsters this time

[Hazza]

Interesting.
-I'd be careful about limiting the ammo (grenades can be sparse, but there needs to be a lot of shells and nails), some maps go to the point of leaving so little there is actually less ammunition than there are enough shots to take the monsters down- it's no biggie if it's a speed map and the idea is to run through, but most don't take that assumption when playing Quake.
-Also, make sure the hidden traps aren't fatal- very important!
Anyway, should be a nice experiment..

[JPL]

Some progress...

http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Divers/GTH8.JPG
http://lambert.jeanphilippe.free.fr/Divers/GTH9.JPG

Now remains the final battle... but not in this area...

[metchsteekle]

i can never make good rock formations like in shot 2 that will compile without spending 390857243985 hours, so i prefer to work with cut concrete :>o [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duvAY0HFdn4&feature=related[/ame]

[Hazza]

Very nice!

[Hazza]

Ok, played some more maps (including getting Fort Driant to Work- still near the start):

All in all, your ideas of level layout and monster positioning are quite refined! (as are your secrets!)
It's very clear you have a good concept of how to utilize the monsters big and small, so I obviously never needed to add in the advice (it's just that SO many people are too prone to keep using ogres and Death Knights in small doses to replace the need for littler monsters)
Your Fort Driant Map shows that complicated situations involving hordes or squads of weak monsters correctly positioned do way more carnage than a handful of bulky monsters in easy-to-beat situations (and personally, a complex situation involving a mob of grunts is way better than several moderate Death Knight/Ogre situations where it boils down to spending time whittling down their armour one-at-a-time without incurring a scratch- which is why I'm a bit wary of the heavy monster preference in maps).

Although I must protest that the pillbox at the start was WAY too hardcore (I spent like 10 minutes trying to take those guys out)- at the same time I actually kinda would have liked to have seen more!

[JPL]

Well, Fort Driant beginning is challenging indeed, but when you know how to proceed, it is quite "easy", believe me....

[Hazza]

Yeah, I kinda took potshots one at a time, which makes the start a tad slow.
On the flipside, if this bunker were later, it'd be great (or a few extra with some immediate entrances so a mad dash in to flush em out could be attemtped).
A few extra pillboxes here and there would also be a nice touch.

I think the only drawback of the level is that the way through (or the access to secrets) was not so clear, or the corresponding button was too far away to be able to make the right connection.
The hints "Button operated" and "Not Yet" were quite good- subtle enough not to be obvious, but you could guess what they meant.

All in all quite nice!

[JPL]

As I mentionned when I posted the map on func_, exploration is highly rewarded in this map... just to give a clue to the player for secret finding..

Anyway, glad you liked the map

[lxndr]

The scene from the last screenshot (gth9) is absolutely lovely, j'ai h�te d'y �tre

[Hazza]

As I mentionned when I posted the map on func_, exploration is highly rewarded in this map... just to give a clue to the player for secret finding..

Anyway, glad you liked the map

Yeah, it's awesome!
As I said, monster positioning is perfect inside the base (and also the pillboxes too), the secrets were well laid out, all that needs to be altered is for the secret triggers to be closer to the doors they open (strangely, most of the secrets are in rooms with a lot of features that look like they might hide the button- and also for some reason I kept checking back to the room with the vending machines).

The only secrets I could not open were the locker thing opposite to that lift (the one which you have to open via the laser-shooters), and one I could only find by Noclip (it was one of two lockers in a room up a ladder with some crates on a conveyerbelt, full of Defenders).

I think this is the only thing needing adjusting (that and not working on Darkplaces- Fitzquake is solid but too hard to see when playing).