Quake Coders

[Chuck]

LoL, it's time to "rewrite quake" again.

[Spirit]

But a license for Quake, implement something like an unique account per player, ban cheaters and you are set. No, no-one will play with you then.

Why bother with cheaters, if they are annoying then move on. Play on a different server or play QW. You cannot stop them.

[Lerster]

But a license for Quake, implement something like an unique account per player, ban cheaters and you are set. No, no-one will play with you then.

Why bother with cheaters, if they are annoying then move on. Play on a different server or play QW. You cannot stop them.

You can stop them, that is just plain stupidity that so many would rather shrug than resolve the problem at hand.

The problem is, that people are lazy and are working on graphical (newage) memory eating versions of quake. And because of which, there is no checking of anything anymore.

Coders can build and updated dll / and or .so or both builds for linux and windows, that is server relevant.

An just add a client check to it, you could check more then one piece of data. So check all four clients or whatever, Qrack / Joequake / darkplaces / proquake / and whatever else i forgot.

I don't think it's impossible it's just a lot of work and nobody seems it's necessary.

The downside would be you'd have to use the old folder routine, to connect to every server.

Rather then throwing RA / 3wave / dm maps all into one pak0.pak file.

As it'd check the textures to insure they are just the default textures, and models, as well as checking for any suspecious code inside the text files that are in pak files.

Anyways, i am merely speculating as i know i can't code something of such efficiency. I just know it is probable.

But i don't know if anyone will ever do it. -_-

[Lerster]

LoL, it's time to "rewrite quake" again.

Well one doesn't have to re-write quake, only the server sides would have to be re-written unless you used a simple code that just tells it to run a check on clients with the dll ? so.

Whatever guess each server would need a view more lines of code written to it for it to work, provided someone actually took time to make it.

I think it'd be worth it though... but that's just me.

[Lerster]

A quick note:
DarkPlaces prevents clients from claiming to have a negative ping, it doesn't kick them for this or anything, but it never lets the negative number escape to the scoreboard.

It could read their ping in a different way that is more accurate (preventing 'fake ping' cheats from accomplishing anything) but I actually don't consider this a serious problem as it does not harm anyone else's game, only gives them a false impression of a statistic.

It's only one of several ways they can be obnoxious, like I remember when clans had problems with imposters posing as their members and trying to get a clan in all sorts of trouble (usually this failed however as the imposter was unmasked and humiliated, and the clans ended up becoming better friends with eachother because of a common enemy).

I never said i had a problem with it. I said i found it "unnerving," meaning it made me realize how insecure quake really is....

If someone can fake ping, who's to say they aren't using some other weird modifications to quake that give them the advantage over the sincere quakers?

It just made me sick to my stomach is all.

[Canadian*Sniper]

stupid experiment?

[LordHavoc]

I never said i had a problem with it. I said i found it "unnerving," meaning it made me realize how insecure quake really is....

If someone can fake ping, who's to say they aren't using some other weird modifications to quake that give them the advantage over the sincere quakers?

Actually Quake is designed to be very cheat resistant, all we're seeing are the few things it does not prevent.

Here is a complete list of things that can be done by cheaters:

• Replacing content to gain advantage - the famous pak2. (ProQuake CheatFree servers prevent this if they work, but ProQuake CheatFree can be bypassed with a client hack, however the main advantage of pak2 is spiked player models which accomplish nothing on anti-wallhack servers)
• Changing settings to gain aiming advantage - gl_picmip 10 being a classic example (which can also be done in driver configuration using texture quality settings), making everything flat colors, r_wateralpha being another example, both of these predate open source Quake engines by a long way. (this is abuse of features, there are many features in many engines that can achieve similar results, including replacement textures)
• Faking pings on the server - this does not give them any advantage, it just shows different numbers. (this can be prevented by server changes)
• Wallhack drivers - sometimes shows players behind walls in simple maps, this does not actually work reliably because Quake tries hard to remove hidden entities such as players, it just isn't quite sure on certain hallways and such. (this can be prevented by server changes, with some side effects)
• Dumb aimbot engines - while a button is pressed the view turns to track the nearest enemy player, even behind walls. (these aimbots are easily detected by spectators, and some server mods even detect them)
• Smart aimbot engines - while a button is pressed any player that moves inside a narrow cone around the crosshair is tracked until the button is released, sometimes with intentionally shakey aim. (these are extremely hard to detect as a spectator, as they behave almost like a real player - on the other hand this also makes them substantially less dangerous as they are only a minor aiming aid for shaft, they don't help a whole lot with rockets)
• Imposters - due to the lack of a global nickname ownership system, people can play as the same name as any other player, even multiple people with the same name on the same server. (This can be prevented by the server using an iplog-like database but not cleanly)
• Imposter Chat - quake console aliases that quickly change nickname to that of someone else, say something, and then change back in the same moment. (This can be prevented by the server)
• Click - it is possible for someone to send a packet telling your client that the server disconnected you, it is also possible to send a packet telling the server that you disconnected. (This can not be prevented by the server without changing the protocol)

Quakeworld also suffers from the following additional cheats:

• speed cheat - moving faster than normal players (made famous by qwcl version 2.30 on Windows 98 moving faster the longer the system had been running). (This is prevented by most qw servers)
• lunge cheat - staying perfectly still for a while, and then moving very rapidly for a short time, usually to ambush and knife someone in CustomTF (where the knife is an instant kill). (This is hard to prevent because some people have very bad connections)
• laggy cheat - where your player moves in a very jerky way, making it hard for other players to aim at you and hit you, but you see yourself moving normally. (DarkPlaces clients interpolate other players so this doesn't confuse DarkPlaces players as much) (This is hard to prevent because some people have very bad connections)

Those are all possible cheats in the Quake and QuakeWorld protocols.

Some are engine hacks (but can be done in other ways), some are driver hacks (bypassing any relevance of validating the engine executable and files, however detectable by PunkBuster-like modules - at least until hacks are made to bypass those modules), some are simply bad internet connections or operating system bugs (NQ does not suffer any of these because it does not offer prediction).

[Lerster]

Actually Quake is designed to be very cheat resistant, all we're seeing are the few things it does not prevent.

Here is a complete list of things that can be done by cheaters:

• Replacing content to gain advantage - the famous pak2. (ProQuake CheatFree servers prevent this if they work, but ProQuake CheatFree can be bypassed with a client hack, however the main advantage of pak2 is spiked player models which accomplish nothing on anti-wallhack servers)
• Changing settings to gain aiming advantage - gl_picmip 10 being a classic example (which can also be done in driver configuration using texture quality settings), making everything flat colors, r_wateralpha being another example, both of these predate open source Quake engines by a long way. (this is abuse of features, there are many features in many engines that can achieve similar results, including replacement textures)
• Faking pings on the server - this does not give them any advantage, it just shows different numbers. (this can be prevented by server changes)
• Wallhack drivers - sometimes shows players behind walls in simple maps, this does not actually work reliably because Quake tries hard to remove hidden entities such as players, it just isn't quite sure on certain hallways and such. (this can be prevented by server changes, with some side effects)
• Dumb aimbot engines - while a button is pressed the view turns to track the nearest enemy player, even behind walls. (these aimbots are easily detected by spectators, and some server mods even detect them)
• Smart aimbot engines - while a button is pressed any player that moves inside a narrow cone around the crosshair is tracked until the button is released, sometimes with intentionally shakey aim. (these are extremely hard to detect as a spectator, as they behave almost like a real player - on the other hand this also makes them substantially less dangerous as they are only a minor aiming aid for shaft, they don't help a whole lot with rockets)
• Imposters - due to the lack of a global nickname ownership system, people can play as the same name as any other player, even multiple people with the same name on the same server. (This can be prevented by the server using an iplog-like database but not cleanly)
• Imposter Chat - quake console aliases that quickly change nickname to that of someone else, say something, and then change back in the same moment. (This can be prevented by the server)
• Click - it is possible for someone to send a packet telling your client that the server disconnected you, it is also possible to send a packet telling the server that you disconnected. (This can not be prevented by the server without changing the protocol)

Quakeworld also suffers from the following additional cheats:

• speed cheat - moving faster than normal players (made famous by qwcl version 2.30 on Windows 98 moving faster the longer the system had been running). (This is prevented by most qw servers)
• lunge cheat - staying perfectly still for a while, and then moving very rapidly for a short time, usually to ambush and knife someone in CustomTF (where the knife is an instant kill). (This is hard to prevent because some people have very bad connections)
• laggy cheat - where your player moves in a very jerky way, making it hard for other players to aim at you and hit you, but you see yourself moving normally. (DarkPlaces clients interpolate other players so this doesn't confuse DarkPlaces players as much) (This is hard to prevent because some people have very bad connections)

Those are all possible cheats in the Quake and QuakeWorld protocols.

Some are engine hacks (but can be done in other ways), some are driver hacks (bypassing any relevance of validating the engine executable and files, however detectable by PunkBuster-like modules - at least until hacks are made to bypass those modules), some are simply bad internet connections or operating system bugs (NQ does not suffer any of these because it does not offer prediction).

so basically your telling me it's hopeless, it will never be cheatfree. No matter how hardcore my heart want it to be, i will just have to lick and suckle my tears in, and breathe a sigh, and bear it?

That's kind've... sad really....

[LordHavoc]

so basically your telling me it's hopeless, it will never be cheatfree. No matter how hardcore my heart want it to be, i will just have to lick and suckle my tears in, and breathe a sigh, and bear it?

That's kind've... sad really....

I was merely giving you a full list so you don't have any more surprises after the fake ping thing.

I've never considered it possible to prevent clientside cheats, the entire concept of preventing them is taking control away from the user (precisely what PunkBuster does), the only reliable way to take control away from the user is to make them play in a lan party on computers provided by the sponsor with no access to download files.

You can only make a game a hard target for cheats - prevent the ones that can be prevented, and keep upgrading the game to newer and better network protocols, each upgrade renders the previous generation of cheat clients obsolete, if there's no one to maintain them then that is the end of it. (Note: DarkPlaces DOES upgrade its protocol from time to time, and as long as no one has an interest in coding cheats for it, it is safe)

And punish cheaters and punks (like I keep saying, cheaters are not the only nuisance players).

[Baker]

so basically your telling me it's hopeless, it will never be cheatfree. No matter how hardcore my heart want it to be, i will just have to lick and suckle my tears in, and breathe a sigh, and bear it?

That's kind've... sad really....

No it is even worse! There are EVEN more cheats out there:

1. The "guy looking in your window with a cell phone" cheat. He tells all the other players, who are using speakerphones, where you are and how much health you have.

2. The "talk Lerster into drinking another beer" cheat. Your play is impaired, while your opponent is fully aware.

3. The "guy who says he's drunk, but really isn't" cheat, where he just wants you to think he's not going to play well.

4. The "hey let's play a new map you don't know, and I'll record a demo of me owning you on it" cheat.

5. The "I tell you 'I'm not playing seriously' because my score sucks" cheat where you own someone, but then they tell you they weren't trying.

6. The "guy that is actually Tical, but you didn't know it was Tical" cheat where some anonymous player is playing and then later you discover it is Tical using some name he made up (again).

[Lerster]

LoL, you guys are really too much.

everyone figures that they "LiMIT" players... or "RESTRICT" players by adding protection when client side crap could be allowed provided it doesn't give them the advantage of "GOD" the Dog.....

O_o

But, whatever.

Ya know, i'm tired of this post who ever has administrator should just lock it... as it's going nowhere fast.

[esteel]

so basically your telling me it's hopeless, it will never be cheatfree. No matter how hardcore my heart want it to be, i will just have to lick and suckle my tears in, and breathe a sigh, and bear it?

That's kind've... sad really....

Basicly yes i think no game will ever be cheat free but then again i think this is not a big problem. As LordHavoc mentioned some cheats CAN be stopped from working by the server so lets make sure servers DO this. (Prevent wallhack by more strict culling, prevent content changes by making players easy to see in the 'default' game itself so there is not need to use brightskins or similar stuff). Also make it easy to punish people that were spotted cheating. A easy way to spectate someone and vote for a kick-with-2hour-ip-ban sounds like a nice way as long as a game does not have a global user system were one could face worse consequences.
There are some cheats that can't be detected but i totally dislike to have my machine scanned, screenshoted or being restriced to some 'official' binaries because some think this is necessary to stop cheats. PunkBuster and friends just cause a false sense of security, start a arms-race that just can't be won and take away customization options from the player. But having a way to punish punks and cheaters is a good way IMO.

[Canadian*Sniper]

Baker is a funny man

[Lerster]

Basicly yes i think no game will ever be cheat free but then again i think this is not a big problem. As LordHavoc mentioned some cheats CAN be stopped from working by the server so lets make sure servers DO this. (Prevent wallhack by more strict culling, prevent content changes by making players easy to see in the 'default' game itself so there is not need to use brightskins or similar stuff). Also make it easy to punish people that were spotted cheating. A easy way to spectate someone and vote for a kick-with-2hour-ip-ban sounds like a nice way as long as a game does not have a global user system were one could face worse consequences.
There are some cheats that can't be detected but i totally dislike to have my machine scanned, screenshoted or being restriced to some 'official' binaries because some think this is necessary to stop cheats. PunkBuster and friends just cause a false sense of security, start a arms-race that just can't be won and take away customization options from the player. But having a way to punish punks and cheaters is a good way IMO.

Well it wouldn't have to look at the entire quake directory, just the ID1 Directory, to match the internals of the pak's not the paks themselves....

But i guess it is hopeless afterall.

An the 2hr ban stuff works fine, provided human natural and mood swings don't influence the administrators and super users, powers; to kick ban people for no reason....

[spooker]

im still recovering from when lerster "yiffed" me