Define What You Think Is Cheating

[Baker]

Yeah, but everyone who uses a pak2.pak with stick models knows they are cheating.

If the feature is an engine, they think it is ok.

If I remember correctly, Shaolin or someone like that the other day was kicking everyone's ass with Qrack and he was telling someone else that about the gl_textureless.

My point is that if a cheater feature is built into an engine, it gives the feature legitimacy.

Should we all not be playing the same game? Do Qrack users need a crutch or can't they play like real men the way ProQuake users do?

[R00k]

Basically all dynamic light glow thru walls, look at lava balls on start map.

gl_textureless was added to enable QW-like clean "fast (turb/sky)" in realtime to
world textures. not as a hack. Case in point... on e4m3 ctf for example red players stick out more than blue players at a distance because the damn wall textures are blue! so wtf!?. dm3 textures are brown lets all team color 10.... etc etc... I didnt create gl_picmip 10. it was in Zquake -> fuh -> joe -> handed down to Qrack. I merely made it realtime toggle. i thought it was possible in all gl variants, when i try gl_picmip 10 in glpro it crashes...

I'll weed thru this thread and find the legacy "cheats" of jq/fuhquake and pull out those that are blatent exploits and not NQ friendly. I guess cl_truelightning is out also...

Should we all not be playing the same game? Do Qrack users need a crutch or can't they play like real men the way ProQuake users do?

Dont blame Qrack solely.. gl_picmip 10 works on all modern engines beyond proquake...including Fitzquake, DarkPlaces, and Joequake.

[Yellow No. 5]

Sounds like you are saying the feature serves no purpose. I agree.

Sounds like I'm saying the purpose is it makes things clearer, like many things do. You continuing to call it a cheat does not make it so. That is equivalent to calling higher resolution textures a cheat because they make things clearer. As mindz said people are concerned about actual cheats like wallhacks and bots.

I only rarely make use of gl_textureless, like when RA'ing with someone who blends in with the map. I use this bind for it:
bind "F12" "+tron"
alias +tron "r_outline 2;wait;gl_textureless 1;wait; bind f12 -tron"
alias -tron "r_outline 1;wait;gl_textureless 0;wait; bind f12 +tron"

Do Qrack users need a crutch or can't they play like real men the way ProQuake users do?

Nice try Mark Antony

[Souless]

I think whoever uses sound is a cheater. Sound should be banned from quake altogether... It's almost like having a wall hack!

[R00k]

This is why there needs to a universal cheat-free. Tell the players that play @ CRMOD.com that what you did above is not cheating and see what they think about that.

One problem is that players are under the impression that any feature engine X, Y or Z has is fair game to (mis)use and leads to the hardcore players having negative reactions to some of the features in the new engines.

Sadly with advents of new features on one side of the engine, also come new exploits on the other. Lets take 24bit textures for example. Every one likes the possibility to add custom textures to their favorite map (dm3 for example). But what is stopping anyone from replacing all dm3 textures with a white 256x256 block?

Nothing.

ProQuake nor any Id release that I can find supports 24bit textures.

So, should we now ban 24bit textures?

[BizarroEvade]

I think a good definition of a cheat is anything that someone uses to have an advantage over another player that is not made available to that player. If someone is using a new client with additional features playing against someone using an older client (and taking advantage of features that the other person doesn't have), that is a cheat. If I am using proquake against someone using winquake and I take advantage of features that they don't have, then I would probably consider it cheating since we are not on a level (game wise) playing field. Don't confuse this with someone that has a 1000 dollar laser mouse with penis attachments vs someone with a one button gay of a mac mouse or someone on dialup vs broadband. Those don't directly affect the game.

Also if you are using some sort of feature and would rather the person you are playing against NOT know about it, it is a cheat. If you have no problem explaining what it is to someone and helping them get set up with it, then it's probably okay.

[scar3crow]

I had a nice long post prepared, but we had a power flicker at work and my machine rebooted.

Yellow - Your tron alias is a simple case of the difficulty in a multiplayer game being too high for your liking, so you are taking action to reduce the difficulty using a command made available by your engine that is of little benefit beyond this application and varies from an id standard. This is validated to you by it being labeled like a genuine command, but the simple fact is it makes the target easier for you to see, and I would think that you would have just as many reservations about it as Baker does, if the command was titled "visibility hack" and produced the exact same results.

R00k - FitzQuake isn't used for multiplayer as far as I know, just mentioning that. Your argument regarding the 24bit textures is ignoring the cosmetic benefit of the texture packs for the sake of a slippery slope. If you are honestly concerned about the texture packs then I would suggest setting a community standard of accepting texture packs and accepted file sizes for them. However people may still do this, and in fact actively do it in the QW community, so it could be a concern. However do not compare 24bit texture support to something like picmip 10, they are barely linked beyond being additions to the engine.

Anyone who needs picmip 10 or such doesn't have a powerful enough machine to spend their time running an engine like DarkPlaces, Qrack, or JoeQuake, I would imagine its addition in these cases came about as an artifact of others work, or simply raising the limits on various commands. For everyone else, it artificially changes visibility. The client is a subjective experience, the level is an objective one - we cannot help that e4m3 uses the blue textures quite often, nor that it was accepted that CTF would be red versus blue, and that e4m3 would play well as a CTF map.

Everyone seems to be missing the principal point of the thread - addressing incidental support for dubious techniques through source ports, and also, defining what cheating is to them. Well except for BizarroEvade.

[Souless]

I still think having sound is a cheat...

[foq]

If you use a monitor whenyou play, you cheat, as you can see what happens around you.

[Canadian*Sniper]

You could also say that proquake is a cheat since it makes EYES twice is big and easier to see.

[Baker]

You could also say that proquake is a cheat since it makes EYES twice is big and easier to see.

Wrong. The eyes are the same size as in GLQuake and WinQuake with gl_doubleeyes 1. If you use gl_doubleeyes 0, the eyes are 50% as large as normal. The cvar was in GLQuake as gl_doubleyes (typo'd).

Common misconception, one that Slot Zero straightened me out on years ago.

[Baker]

I'll weed thru this thread and find the legacy "cheats" of jq/fuhquake and pull out those that are blatent exploits and not NQ friendly. I guess cl_truelightning is out also...

Dont blame Qrack solely.. gl_picmip 10 works on all modern engines beyond proquake...including Fitzquake, DarkPlaces, and Joequake.

I know there wasn't any intent of gl_textureless being a "cheat" when you added it, but nevertheless that is what it is and players are using it to get an edge over other players and this was something new added to Qrack, not inherited.

I'm not blaming Qrack solely, perhaps LordHavoc is willing to disable the capability to use gl_picmip greater than 4 for multiplayer.

And what FitzQuake does is pretty irrelevant, it isn't even an NAT-fixed engine like ProQuake/JoeQuake/Qrack/DarkPlaces. It'll just sit there with a blinking cursor if you try to connect to a server using a router with default settings, which in the modern world is an increasingly large percent of players.

Add: other stuff that is cvar controlled like cl_truelightning, etc., could be dealt with on the server side like cl_fullpitch, r_wateralpha, etc. if people view that stuff as a problem.

[E]s-Doom]

if your so worried about people cheating why not just make an engine that does not support all the things that you consider cheats and have a some servers for that client only

[Baker]

if your so worried about people cheating why not just make an engine that does not support all the things that you consider cheats and have a some servers for that client only

You mean like the ProQuake cheat-free servers listed on the home page, right?

What a lot of players want is a more encompassing cheat-free that allows the more modern clients to connect, and just because a player is not on a cheat-free server doesn't mean they want people cheating.

CAx, for instance, has a number of anti-cheat measures.

You use Qrack and have posted for information so you can get it too look nice, that's why you aren't using ProQuake and you aren't the only one that would prefer to use more modern clients. At the same time, there are those that prefer to use the more old school clients, but regardless no one wants to be cheated out a fair game on any server.

[R00k]

Well, basically, in the short term we are going to have mandated multiplayer clients/servers and then theres the whatever eyecandy singleplayer client.

Otherwise its a guessing game "everything under the sun" - except basic skill of aim.

I rememmber back when CheatFree came out. I told everyone and anyone to get the .dll
Proquake this proquake that i was a poster child. Then as the updates stopped, and (as a server admin/coder) more exploits were thrown at me. At the same time engine eye candy was presented in variant engines, PQ lost alot of ground.
TRue Pq might be secure, but I cant go back to it, and play competively. I think pq could be updated and the dll re-tweaked.
But maybe a DarkPlaces client/server variant could be created.