Is the grapple hook in ctf too fast?

[PapaSmurf]

I've pretty much been playing zoid's (threewave) ctf off and on since it's inception in late 1996, and one of the first things that drew me to this mod was the grapple hook. It was amazing; it allowed you to gain access to places that were otherwise impossible to get to, and it introuduced a new element of gameplay.

Now, however, I feel that with the introduction of "new" (circa 1999) grapple hook techniques, the hook detracts from the core gameplay of CTF. I find with the rather high speed grapple hook, matches turn into more of running and chasing rather than fighting your way through a defense to obtain the flag. I feel there is less strategy involved, whereas before a team would usually need to mount a coordinated attack to breakthrough their opponent's defense to obtain the flag, now it is all to easy to simply grapple in, grab flag and get out. Then the match reduces to simply chasing the flag carrier all over the place. Now, I can understand the appeal of this gameplay, it's fast, high tempo, but it is all too one dimensional.

What this really boils down to is defensive minded CTF vs. offensive minded CTF, but that's just my take.

[Grim]

I can agree 100% with you and relate. This topic has been brought up before and to cut a long story short, the majority likes the faster hook.

[PapaSmurf]

I can agree 100% with you and relate. This topic has been brought up before and to cut a long story short, the majority likes the faster hook.

Yah, i figured as much.

[spooker]

don't go messing with something that was successful for sooo long based on 2 people's input
i like the grapple

[Grim]

It would probably have been different if I stayed playing the game for the duration instead of coming back to it years later. I think evolving into it would have been better for me.

[Solecord]

The problem with slow hook was back in the day all people did was camp base. On a full pub server you'd find 1 or 2 people running the flag and everyone else camping base. With the slow hook it was almost impossible to mount an attack on an enemy's base without coordination - something that never occured on a pub ctf server. Even though you had teams, people generally played for themselves. You ended up with lots of 20-30 minute matches with only a few captures. Many of the e1mx maps come to mind....

[scar3crow]

The problem with slow hook was back in the day all people did was camp base.

I call that defending the flag ; )

On a full pub server you'd find 1 or 2 people running the flag and everyone else camping base.

Full server... 16 people... I assume you mean 1 or 2 per team, so at max 4 people out in the field, which leaves 6 defenders per base against 2 guys who are probably damaged from brush ups with the other two runners out in the midfield. Sounds dull to me, and also sounds nothing like what I experienced in public CTF back in the day, usually you would have 2-4 people defending the bases in large matches, and the majority of people played the midfield, with a few outright attacking, and the midfielders would follow them and support them.

With the slow hook it was almost impossible to mount an attack on an enemy's base without coordination - something that never occured on a pub ctf server.

Speak for yourself, I used messagemode2 and would single out one or two people on my team to meet me somewhere, and be decently armed. People usually did this - they wanted this to happen, it was fun. All it takes is initiative, very simple initiative.

Even though you had teams, people generally played for themselves.

Thats how it feels to me now, deathmatch with entities that can get you massive leads.

Granted, hook is like the lightning gun, its all fun and good - until you meet someone who can use it better than you can - then its fucking annoying and you want to crush their teeth through the roof of their mouth.

The current hookspeed does allow for very quick getaways without any other skill though it seems, it encourages the one-man-team (and considering servers tendency to disable runes, leave quad enabled, and people timing the quad, it has no real room for fun, just massive leads).

I would be interested in going so far as playing a no-hook CTF match. Though I would like to see runes enabled, they really favor CTF gameplay, and bring about roles more favorably than who is aggressive versus who is reluctant.

[Verybadloser^XJ]

Slow hook only worked for me when i was a modemmer, once getting lpb Global atleast became way too easy with slow hook, if you had dm aim. you didn't even use hook because it gained very little advantage and stopped you aiming :>. Fast hook puts way more emphasis on the hook, and i think it was a good addition. The old days of base camping certainly work far far less with lpbs and i'd say defending shouldn't play that much part of ctf anyways.

[scar3crow]

So... it is a race? If defending shouldn't play that much of a part, I would argue that the object you are defending, the flag doesn't matter either. So either its now a racing game, or tdm with hooks.

I want Capture the Flag, not deathmatch with easy score jumps.

[spooker]

i dont really like runes in CTF. recently I got crushed in a game by Papasmurf, and i realized that runes really just entrench the dominant position of the winner and help him to keep the losers down even more. i've seen some creative play with them, such as frenzy suiciding to try to grab strength before someone else did, but on the whole i'm against them

[Canadian*Sniper]

I think CTF needs a slow hook and flag bases with at least 3 entry ways. Spooker says don't mess with something that has been successful. Well true, CTF was very successful but times are changing. CTF isn't dead but it's not alive either. So perhaps we can change this with a few tweaks

[Grim]

Slow hook only worked for me when i was a modemmer, once getting lpb Global atleast became way too easy with slow hook,

Unfortunately there's a lot of truth in that. Like C*S said, maybe a "little" tweaking is needed.

I, like Papasmurf, played Zioids CTF. Favorite map was CTF1. Rarely did I spend anytime playing other orignal Quake maps.

[gamefreak]

Maybe they should change it to where once you pick up a flag, you can no longer use a hook. Kinda like in Star Wars Battlefront 2 for X-Box; If you picked up a flag, you couldn't use a jetpack or certain jedi powers.

[Yellow No. 5]

I see things rather differently. It seems papa thinks the slow hook makes it easier for newbs. Thats not the case. All the best ctf players are lightening fast with slow hook + bunny hopping etc. The faster the hook, the easier it is for newbs to keep up, because they don't need to have every perfect hook spot and bunny hop down pat like the top players.

[spooker]

seems to me like if anything it's more inclined to help pros, because it adds an ability that you can exploit, but it takes time to learn how to exploit it. pros have put in the time to learn, newbies haven't. but it also helps newbs get hard to reach items that they might not know how to get to otherwise (like bolt gun and RA on elder god shrine). i don't think it throws the advantage too strongly one way or the other, but if anything towards pros