Ctf Now

[omix2]

Awful idea.

[Rampage]

Awful idea.

One of the main problems with CTF is that like Quad, weapon spawn sits at 30 seconds. Yes this is standard respawn time for all units of weapons/ammo/armor/health but .. when you are looking at a 4v4 to 5v5 match there are not nearly enough weapons on the map.

In fact I am willing to argue that a majority of my kills come on after death respawns, and people waiting for guns to spawn. Especially during big games I see people fighting for position over weapons or simply camping out the spot.
Do you consider this strategic? Do you consider it skilled?

With a faster weapon respawn time you're looking at more of an equal playing field, less weapon whoring, more action, less one sided flag caps with crazy quad control due to weapon control..

Let's say you shaved down 15 seconds from the 30 second weapon respawn? why do you argue the circumstances would be so dire? is CTF alive and kicking? If we can do anything to promote, modify, and enhance and help CTF flourish into a better game then why not?

Too often I'm seeing one sided scores, even with balanced teams, its apparent once a team gets weapon control and 1-2 flag caps it's becoming increasingly hard to mount a comeback.

[omix2]

If the RL is spawning faster that does not mean tehre's going to be less weapn whoring. It just means the person weapon whoring is going to be getting more RLs. And 30 seconds is fine, theres no reason to make it any faster. Conserve packs, do whatever, there does not need to be 10 RLs running around. We dont need to make it into Ca X. Part of CTF has always been the quest to find a gun, you aren't just supposed to be given an RL and sent off to the enemy base to attack it.

There is absolutely no need for this change...

[Rampage]

If the RL is spawning faster that does not mean tehre's going to be less weapn whoring. It just means the person weapon whoring is going to be getting more RLs. And 30 seconds is fine, theres no reason to make it any faster. Conserve packs, do whatever, there does not need to be 10 RLs running around. We dont need to make it into Ca X. Part of CTF has always been the quest to find a gun, you aren't just supposed to be given an RL and sent off to the enemy base to attack it.

There is absolutely no need for this change...

No one said increase weapon location spawns, simply increase the speed.

I played 3wave for almost my entire time playing Quake.. weapon whoring happens because people sit around in the spot waiting for the weapon to spawn.. they are successful for a short while until the guy comes around with Quad and decimates anyone waiting for a weapon and picks it up. With faster respawn times it allows for more versatility and balance on both teams. There will be better battles, instead of shotgun vs RL which all too often is the case and ends up creating imbalanced scores.

Take warzone for example, we played two weeks ago and almost every kill I had with the exception of fights in mid were focused on people sitting and waiting for RL and i'd pass by with my flag and kill them or wait for the next RL myself.

There would be a greater chance for flag return and greater excitement if everyone had an equal playing field. These types of changes will allow for a free flowing offensive game. To be honest Warzone is the only map i've seen which doesn't create a weapon imbalance in a 4on4 matchup..

There are many maps which exemplify what I speak of, Red Alert (hook, hook, hook, kill weapon camper, grab weapon, hook, hook).. capturephobolis.. Defense gets base RL, roamers camp outside RL with no where else to go inbetween the map.. CTF1 (perfect example).. one mid shaft, one water RL, two defense RL's.. team gets quad/mid control, match is immediatly over.

I have never seen a CTF1 match overturned, every ctf1 match i've witnessed (beyond 2v2) was a complete lopsided victory even with balanced teams.

With a faster respawn it also allows time between when the opposing player hooks elsewhere and you can grab your weapon.. he cannot be every where at once with 15 second rocket respawn where as in 30 second respawn I can easily hook around the map and whore every single weapon..

[R00k]

I think everyone has made a valid argument. CTF is basically DM gameplay with another aspect of that of football. This is kinda why very good dm players can almost walk on to a ctf server and decimate. But the Balance is that DM players suck at hooking. Over the years, we all have learned to hook as good as TOILET DUCK, and WOODS, etc. The lower the ticrate falls the faster the game has become. Seriously just on that aspect, imagine trying to play by 1997 standards, of 120ping at 0.1(10fps) ticrate. But now fast forward to 2008, technology has made the game more fluid, and for the most part an ELITIST mod.

Back to the subject, with weapon stay, there wouldnt be weapon whoring, simply because you cant retake the weapon once you already have it. But, then everyone who can hook 90miles an hour has an RL within 20 seconds of every respawn. But with weapon respawns shorter, people have bloated inventory, unless maybe you cant retake weapons that you already have. Im not talking 8 second respawns either, more like 20% faster. And not ALL the time but as an option for when we have > 5vs5 games. But then, maybe it isnt the timing of the items, maybe its the players. If everyone has equal power all the time, it just becomes a tug of war.

Looking back through the original CTF code, deathmatchmode 3 is weapon stay, with 20 second armor respawns, and 15 second ammo respawns. How about deathmatchmode 4 with 20second weapon respawns, 15 second armor respawns, and 15second ammo respawns, plus, the inability to retake a weapon that you already have?

[omix2]

I think everyone has made a valid argument. CTF is basically DM gameplay with another aspect of that of football. This is kinda why very good dm players can almost walk on to a ctf server and decimate. But the Balance is that DM players suck at hooking. Over the years, we all have learned to hook as good as TOILET DUCK, and WOODS, etc. The lower the ticrate falls the faster the game has become. Seriously just on that aspect, imagine trying to play by 1997 standards, of 120ping at 0.1(10fps) ticrate. But now fast forward to 2008, technology has made the game more fluid, and for the most part an ELITIST mod.

Back to the subject, with weapon stay, there wouldnt be weapon whoring, simply because you cant retake the weapon once you already have it. But, then everyone who can hook 90miles an hour has an RL within 20 seconds of every respawn. But with weapon respawns shorter, people have bloated inventory, unless maybe you cant retake weapons that you already have. Im not talking 8 second respawns either, more like 20% faster. And not ALL the time but as an option for when we have > 5vs5 games. But then, maybe it isnt the timing of the items, maybe its the players. If everyone has equal power all the time, it just becomes a tug of war.

Looking back through the original CTF code, deathmatchmode 3 is weapon stay, with 20 second armor respawns, and 15 second ammo respawns. How about deathmatchmode 4 with 20second weapon respawns, 15 second armor respawns, and 15second ammo respawns, plus, the inability to retake a weapon that you already have?

The inability to retake a weapon you have? Come on... Now that's just runequake. I'd never be willing to play with a setting like that.

[Disco]

Ctf

Well if you guys want to try and improve CTF to kind of modernize it for this day in age, then i would like to throw in some suggestions.

Weapons - 20 Second Respawn time on Weapons instead of 30 (i will give in on this)

Armor - Adjust Armor to match the respawn time on weapons.

Quad - Make it Completely Random respawn time anywhere between 30 Seconds and 2 Minutes. Im not sure if this is possible but this would be great. It would stop the camping and controlling like Ramp is saying and focus on CTF.

Runes - Lets bring these back but lets make it more balanced. Same Runes, Same Effects but the runes have timers on them. If a player has not died in 5 minutes, then at 5 minutes the rune is taken from the player and randomly spawned somewhere on the map.

This keeps a team from having the resistant rune and Damage rune and whoring the map up. We can make the timers even less. So instead of 5 minutes, make it 2 minutes, Whatever.


Game Time - Maybe lets look at adjusting this? Shorten the games to 10 minutes or 15 minutes.



Just some ideas.

[omix2]

Armor is already @ 20s. The quad is not camped, it is returned to every 1 minute. Changing the time to random would have the opposite effect of making it camped instead of just having it be returned to every 1 minute.

I like disco's runes idea and I'd say try 25s on the weapons and see how it affects the game. However do not up ammo spawn times, they should stay the same. The idea is you should be able to grab an RL or LG or a weapon, but you should also be able to use it wisely and strategically.

This mod isn't CA. You are not ENTITLED to having unlimited weapons / ammo. You are not even ENTITLED to get a weapon at all. You are given ample opportunity to grab a gun, and choose what to do with it. If it is mid-game, of course there are going to be geared players running around with 50 rox and 200 / 150 armor exercising control. This is PART OF THE GAME. Removing this would have the opposite effect of destroying what makes the game fun.

I'm not saying a team should be able to just camp mid on ctf1 and win the game, but strategy should be the #1 concept and should not take a back seat to arming everyone with 200/100/100/100/100 so they can run around and shoot RLs at everyone brainlessly.

[Rampage]

Armor is already @ 20s. The quad is not camped, it is returned to every 1 minute. Changing the time to random would have the opposite effect of making it camped instead of just having it be returned to every 1 minute.

I like disco's runes idea and I'd say try 25s on the weapons and see how it affects the game. However do not up ammo spawn times, they should stay the same. The idea is you should be able to grab an RL or LG or a weapon, but you should also be able to use it wisely and strategically.

This mod isn't CA. You are not ENTITLED to having unlimited weapons / ammo. You are not even ENTITLED to get a weapon at all. You are given ample opportunity to grab a gun, and choose what to do with it. If it is mid-game, of course there are going to be geared players running around with 50 rox and 200 / 150 armor exercising control. This is PART OF THE GAME. Removing this would have the opposite effect of destroying what makes the game fun.

I'm not saying a team should be able to just camp mid on ctf1 and win the game, but strategy should be the #1 concept and should not take a back seat to arming everyone with 200/100/100/100/100 so they can run around and shoot RLs at everyone brainlessly.

Hence i never mentioned greater ammo/armor respawn times, we don't want to amp up the game and beef everyone up.. that would also make returning the flag or capturing it that much harder..

All i said is shave down some time on weapon respawn and I listed the various reasons why its beneficial in CTF..

No player will be beefed up like CA, it just allows for more fair play and less abusing of shotgunners..

[Rampage]

Well if you guys want to try and improve CTF to kind of modernize it for this day in age, then i would like to throw in some suggestions.

Weapons - 20 Second Respawn time on Weapons instead of 30 (i will give in on this)

Armor - Adjust Armor to match the respawn time on weapons.

Quad - Make it Completely Random respawn time anywhere between 30 Seconds and 2 Minutes. Im not sure if this is possible but this would be great. It would stop the camping and controlling like Ramp is saying and focus on CTF.

Runes - Lets bring these back but lets make it more balanced. Same Runes, Same Effects but the runes have timers on them. If a player has not died in 5 minutes, then at 5 minutes the rune is taken from the player and randomly spawned somewhere on the map.

This keeps a team from having the resistant rune and Damage rune and whoring the map up. We can make the timers even less. So instead of 5 minutes, make it 2 minutes, Whatever.


Game Time - Maybe lets look at adjusting this? Shorten the games to 10 minutes or 15 minutes.



Just some ideas.

These are not bad ideas, but keeping the quad normally timed is essential because Quad is a mainstay prized possession in the game..
it can turn the tide of a game in the favor of a losing team.. you need predictable quad timing so it becomes a focal point where everyone fights over it, thats what makes the game fun. Red Alert is a prime example of how quad fights shift tides.

I think the 20 minute mark for CTF is fine, it gives enough time for both teams to get their caps, and their weapons.

This may sound like a weird suggestion, but how about doing something regarding flag carriers?

Right off the bat this may sound quirky. I personally find it too easy to grab a flag and quickly hook away and hide until my flag is returned. Normally I try to return the flag myself but one thing I've noticed is that on many 3wave maps once both teams have flags, the match becomes drawn out. At times flag caps do not occur for 5-6 minutes, and both teams total near a 100 points in a 20 minute game, this is boring and does not suit the high paced CTF action well. It plays out more like a hockey game in that one team executes a trap and wins with a 1-0 score.

None of these suggestions are concrete.. just brainstorming, how about applying a very small damage over time to a flag carrier if they are sitting in a general zone for too long (blue, red base) .. or have the flag carrier make a constant ringing noise around them which creates awareness of where they are on the map, that way people can hunt the flag carrier down.. and makes for some awesome chase/killing scenarios.. If there is an incentive to carrying the flag (capping it) I believe there should be some drawback just so we're not facing drawn out mundane matches..

[omix2]

Hence i never mentioned greater ammo/armor respawn times, we don't want to amp up the game and beef everyone up.. that would also make returning the flag or capturing it that much harder..

All i said is shave down some time on weapon respawn and I listed the various reasons why its beneficial in CTF..

No player will be beefed up like CA, it just allows for more fair play and less abusing of shotgunners..

I think we should try the faster weapon respawn idea, but I don't see why it would necessarily stop someone from weapon whoring. It would just give them more rox and a fatter pack. On top of that if the person whoring RL knows anything about quake, you just made his 30 second run back to RL a 20 second run and therefore you might be encouraging MORE camping than before. I know if I was a mid fielder I would be back there every 20 seconds instead of every 30. You have to ask yourself if this is contrary to what you want to accomplish.

The only way I can see fixing the control issue is for a mapper to start making new CTF maps that are more balanced.

For example in team fortress "a tale of two bases" or whatever that map is with the 2 bases separated by a bridge, that should be a CTF map here in NQ. Perfect example of a completely balanced map. Although may be difficult to cap, but think about it.

The issue you are having is not with the respawn times, its with the maps and weapon spawns.

It might be a good idea to examine established games like quake 3 and see where the largest maps have weapon spawns and how they dynamics of the game work. Maybe it would solve this issue to investigate successful mods, as opposed to brainstorming for a dead one.

[Rampage]

I think we should try the faster weapon respawn idea, but I don't see why it would necessarily stop someone from weapon whoring. It would just give them more rox and a fatter pack. On top of that if the person whoring RL knows anything about quake, you just made his 30 second run back to RL a 20 second run and therefore you might be encouraging MORE camping than before. I know if I was a mid fielder I would be back there every 20 seconds instead of every 30. You have to ask yourself if this is contrary to what you want to accomplish.

The only way I can see fixing the control issue is for a mapper to start making new CTF maps that are more balanced.

For example in team fortress "a tale of two bases" or whatever that map is with the 2 bases separated by a bridge, that should be a CTF map here in NQ. Perfect example of a completely balanced map. Although may be difficult to cap, but think about it.

The issue you are having is not with the respawn times, its with the maps and weapon spawns.

It might be a good idea to examine established games like quake 3 and see where the largest maps have weapon spawns and how they dynamics of the game work. Maybe it would solve this issue to investigate successful mods, as opposed to brainstorming for a dead one.

The difference in Quake3 CTF is that they provided weapons in both base (for defense) and in mid so people fight in mid over weapons/armor etc.. there are a few 3wave maps that offer this.. and many good maps that we haven't played on Sunday.. The weapon respawn in Quake3 CTF is also MUCH faster than in NQ Ctf..
also take into consideration there is a rail gun which completely changes the dynamic of the game.. allowing you long range defense/long range flag returns

In regards to what you mentioned involving a player going back quicker.. he now also has less time to move around the entire map and whore several weapons instead of just one..

When I have weapon control I quickly hook around the map and grab other weapons.. in 30 seconds it allows me a lot of time to do this.. where as in 15-20 seconds I definitely won't be able to grab all weapons.. it also gives an ample opportunity for other people to grab weapons and fight me instead of shotgun vs RL..

Read my last post regarding flag carrying, this is another aspect that I think if treated correctly could definitely make CTF a better game, a few mod changes could go a long way towards helping the game.. after all we are in a new era..

[PapaSmurf]

Quake 3 has 5 second weapon timers, but you only get 1 ammo per pick up if you are over the weapon's base ammo (e.g. 5 rox is base ammo for RL). Also, Quake 3 CTF has no grapple, so getting from one base to the other is going to take A LOT longer, which gives the other team more opportunities to get weapons and intercept the flag carrier.

Another major difference between Quake 3 CTF and NQCTF is that in Q3CTF you can't spawn in the other team's base. You can only spawn in your base and in the middle, so once the flag carrier gets back into their side of the map, he's pretty much home free (unless someone is waiting for him).

I know some of you are against the idea of weapon-stay (keep the LG on a timer, though, no need for endless discharging), but this would certainly stop weapon whoring, and I think would make it harder for teams to capture the flag.

I really think making a flag capture should be more difficult than it is now, and I'm just trying to think of ways to do this. One way is to decrease the speed of the hook (I think more people would be opposed to this). Another way is to make weapons more accessible (ie, weapon stay or reduced weapon timers). There are other options as well, some of which rampage has mentioned. I don't like the idea of losing health over time as the flag carrier, but maybe losing armor over time or not being able to get max armor. I think looking at how CTF is done in other games such as UT and Halo, and maybe incorporating some of those ideas into NQCTF would be good as well.

[Rampage]

Quake 3 has 5 second weapon timers, but you only get 1 ammo per pick up if you are over the weapon's base ammo (e.g. 5 rox is base ammo for RL). Also, Quake 3 CTF has no grapple, so getting from one base to the other is going to take A LOT longer, which gives the other team more opportunities to get weapons and intercept the flag carrier.

Another major difference between Quake 3 CTF and NQCTF is that in Q3CTF you can't spawn in the other team's base. You can only spawn in your base and in the middle, so once the flag carrier gets back into their side of the map, he's pretty much home free (unless someone is waiting for him).

I know some of you are against the idea of weapon-stay (keep the LG on a timer, though, no need for endless discharging), but this would certainly stop weapon whoring, and I think would make it harder for teams to capture the flag.

I really think making a flag capture should be more difficult than it is now, and I'm just trying to think of ways to do this. One way is to decrease the speed of the hook (I think more people would be opposed to this). Another way is to make weapons more accessible (ie, weapon stay or reduced weapon timers). There are other options as well, some of which rampage has mentioned. I don't like the idea of losing health over time as the flag carrier, but maybe losing armor over time or not being able to get max armor. I think looking at how CTF is done in other games such as UT and Halo, and maybe incorporating some of those ideas into NQCTF would be good as well.

I really never thought about the spawns of players either. I think to lessen cheap spawn kills, and add more skill to the game chasing/aiming .. we definitely need to add respawn after death in blue/red base only.

I think the idea about having the flag carrier make a small ringing noise such as when you first pick up the flag would add excitement in that more people will be looking to hunt the flag carrier instead of just focusing on area/weapon control and bring the game back to its true purpose, capturing the flag.

[omix2]

The hook speed should be 3wave and not CRCTF. The fast hook is really what starts to make things ridiculously unbalanced and too fast. The faster hook is also unfair to higher ping players that can't hook around that fast.

The hook wasn't made to propel you to where you want to be in .5 of a second. The original morningstar was slow as fuck (3wave setting). I think that's what it should always be. Anything else is just runequake-ish.