Remake Quake Project

[NightFright]

I haven't played the new demo yet, but judging from the previous one I can say that people should realize that this isn't just a Quake with better looking levels, it's a new vision of the original game, having new gameplay features and therefore also "feeling" different in general. Previous demos already proved that, and that's why you shouldn't be surprised if it's not like the Quake you know.

Anyway, it's a great idea to bring new stuff into the game, it's a proof that surprises can still happen in a game which is already more than 15 years old. Level design is great in this remake, and if you have to think about how to proceed, it contributes to the atmosphere for me, moving away from plain shooter procedures with more puzzle elements, much less linear and making you wonder about the solution. The thing with the hook naturally leads to situations where you don't know where to go next, but usually you figure it out after a while.

After I have played the new demo, I am hopefully able to add more.

[golden_boy]

Demos would really, really help us to diagnose the problems. Especially demos with comments in them. Those are worth their filesize in gold.

Any demos are hugely appreciated for this reason. You don't even need to be a master player to record a helpful demo for the level designer. We actually definitely look at these things. Every demo helps.

[ijed]

Leading is a ambiguous phrase - for example, the best way to lead a player to a new area is fill it full of monsters.

For the sky bridge I've added something to the "To Do" list - have an NPC stood on a piece in the middle of it, stranded. Or maybe have him activate it ahead of the player, only to get killed by a monster when reaching the end.

This communicates that there is a magical style walkway there.

It'll be a bit complex to put together, but I don't have any excuse because there are lots of things I could have done there, putting a message, a sign, or even just a health kit overhanging the ledge...

All these are ways of telling the player, and the less obvious ones are better.

Thinking of it again, a cool one would be a metal plate that just pushes the player over the edge.

In any case, I didn't dismiss the feedback. Maybe when the project is finished we'll release the 'To Do' lists - they're pretty long already.

[golden_boy]

indeed, "leading" is being used by ijed as a level design term meaning "making it seem intuitive for the player", not "leading them around by the nose like children". ;-)

[FC Zvyozdochka]

Leading is a ambiguous phrase - for example, the best way to lead a player to a new area is fill it full of monsters.

I think that you are very clever man! You know gamer's psychology!

For the sky bridge I've added something to the "To Do" list - have an NPC stood on a piece in the middle of it, stranded. Or maybe have him activate it ahead of the player, only to get killed by a monster when reaching the end.

Cutscene with NPC crossing the bridge? Not bad. But cutscenes interrupt gameplay, which might be not good for someone. And after cutscene ends - nothing more reminds player about bridge.
And just another one reason to limit cutscenes usage - stupid and boring console shooters are made of cutscenes only, so for me (and many other people) two this things are associated - cutscenes and PS3-NOGAEMS.

I've thought about constant (not flying) handrails for the bridge and bridge endings on both sides which may look like ruined bridge leftovers (like in the abyss in first LotR movie where Gandalf fought the demon). Maybe some pieces of stone chaotically flying between endings. This things would tell player that here is actually a some kind of bridge, not the road to an abyss.

All these are ways of telling the player, and the less obvious ones are better.

Yes, there is much more interest when all hints are unobvious. But it is not so funny when hint is not clear at all
Of course, straight and rude tips such as big sign with "DONT MISS FLYONG BRIDGE TO DA RIGHT" words on are not good. But still there must be something for player to lead him ("lead" in that way that was cleared by GB in upper post).

Thinking of it again, a cool one would be a metal plate that just pushes the player over the edge.

This is little bit too rude IMHO

All this things are of course just my opinion, but as you've already told - "the less obvious ones are better". I'd just like to add an opinion - "the less forcing ones are better". In this case it is better to close the door to the return or to show the path a bit trampled then to press player out to the destination point with metal plunger. It is brilliantly done in yours e3m2rq - some rooms are filled with lava as they no more are necessary for the gameplay, so even I understood - my actions provoked some tectonic/magic process, nothing more to see there, time to go in another rooms and not to return there anymore.

Thank you for feedback, you are awesome guys!
And sorry for my English - this forum is one of the very few opportunities to practice for me.

[Spiney]

All this things are of course just my opinion, but as you've already told - "the less obvious ones are better". I'd just like to add an opinion - "the less forcing ones are better". In this case it is better to close the door to the return or to show the path a bit trampled then to press player out to the destination point with metal plunger. It is brilliantly done in yours e3m2rq - some rooms are filled with lava as they no more are necessary for the gameplay, so even I understood - my actions provoked some tectonic/magic process, nothing more to see there, time to go in another rooms and to return there anymore.

I would like to add something to that though. I personally love how in Quake you get catapulted into nasty situations. Every next room is a potential deathtrap. It's cool because it's often the last thing you'dd suspect.
Like you're just walking through a corridor and suddenly the floor cracks open and you fall into a pit of fiends, suddenly a door opens just to be greeted by a shambler from behind. While playing Quake for the first time these things really had me on the edge of my seat. Modern FPS often go too easy on the player.

So having something that pushes you over doesn't necessarily sound like a bad thing in my opinion.

[DaniOcampo1992]

Is this standalone? I have a gfx.wad error message.. :/

[golden_boy]

Nope, you need Quake pak0.pak and pak1.pak (ie the full version of Quake) to play it.

[ijed]

No, no cutscenes - if it can be done in game then it should be. And we've got a lot of tools for doing cool stuff

Putting railings, or having some parts of the bridge could help, but they're not certain. Locking a door behind them will definitely work, but I don't see it as an elegant solution... although just shoving them onto the skybridge is, somehow.

And yeah, I like the WTF moments as well. Traps don't ask your permission first in Quake.

Sometimes you can just get past them, but the best ones are ones you can either diffuse, or, better yet, shove monsters into.

[Bloodshot]

It's funny, I was about to mention that some things, like the "shoot this console" hint were too obvious, and I'd rather have them more obscure, and I see people saying the opposite. Maybe I haven't played enough yet.

I haven't finished playing it yet mind you (in e3m1rq), but IMO, even if you are making a different Quake, unforgiving traps are a must. I hate it when games have easy traps, but the enemies are still hard.

They are both elements of gameplay, why make one easier - they should contrast each other as gameplay elements so they are both different experiences, but at the same time be reflective of each other in certain ways. If the monsters don't hold your hand while shooting you, why should that crusher and those spike walls do it?

I agree about cutscenes though, they should be minimalistic if there at all (before or after a level ends)

Half-Life had the right idea IMO. Instead of cutscenes, scripted sequences that give you an idea of what to do instead of direct hints or cutscenes. I like scripted sequences that help you do things because when you figure something out, you still feel as if you accomplished something, but a direct hint with text takes away from that, and a cutscene just feels like it's being shoved in your face.

[golden_boy]

It's funny, I was about to mention that some things, like the "shoot this console" hint were too obvious, and I'd rather have them more obscure, and I see people saying the opposite. Maybe I haven't played enough yet.

I agree - there is an awful lot of text messages (or GlaDOS voices) telling the player exactly what to do. I thought that was not good.

Then again, I was surprised to see that not even the people at func_msgboard criticized this in their demos in the slightest. A lot of badly lit textures etc. are criticized much more than this IMO bad way of leading the player.

I haven't finished playing it yet mind you (in e3m1rq), but IMO, even if you are making a different Quake, unforgiving traps are a must. I hate it when games have easy traps, but the enemies are still hard.

They are both elements of gameplay, why make one easier - they should contrast each other as gameplay elements so they are both different experiences, but at the same time be reflective of each other in certain ways. If the monsters don't hold your hand while shooting you, why should that crusher and those spike walls do it?

I agree again, but the combo trap in e1m6rq, for example, was criticized as extremely unfair even before the release of that map, as well as after the release. I think it was also seen as "not Quake" by a few. It originally even had nail shooters in addition to the jumping and the crushers, � la Tomb Raider combo traps.

Mind you, I also think that traps are still underused and often without real teeth in RMQ. It is changing for the better though, I was delighted that e3m3rq had as many traps as it did.

I agree about cutscenes. They're a great tool for conveying atmosphere, for example I don't think that first cutscene in e2m1rq is bad. The player should probably be able to click it away though after dying and respawning, which is a matter of setting one spawnflag.

I think a cutscene can be good to set the mood, or it could play when the player has just accomplished something major. Showing a door open in a cutscene might be overuse, although it depends how it's done and how often it's done. Maybe if it's a key door or a large bridge that actually looks cool while opening, a cutscene might be all right.

Chiefly, a cutscene should show something that is actually interesting or conveys a feeling of accomplishment to the player, I think. This can support the feeling of making progress.

[MH]

There's one very good point about cutscenes with doors opening that is often overlooked, and that is that such a cutscene will show you where the door is.

Getting on my "minor rant" horse here.

If you play through the ID1 maps you'll find that many (most? not all though) are structured in such a way that as soon as you get a key you're very close to the door that the key is used for. A great example I think is e2m7 - you play though the first half of the map, grab the gold key, and all you need to do is jump down (into the room you entered the main part of the map in) and you're at the door.

This - IMO - increases the sense of interconnectedness in a map, and it's all over ID1. Take e2m7 again; you can go to the area where the exit door is as soon as you enter the map, but you need to play through the full map in order to actually open the door. e3m5 has that wonderful central room where tunnels open up (and a different pickup under each one to help remind you which ones you haven't visited yet) that you keep on coming back to.

You're continually being brought around the map in a winding pattern, back to somewhere you've been before, but something is different, you've got a key now and can progress in a differrent direction, or you've hit a button and opened another door. The player is hardly ever locked out from revisiting an area, and - even when you've cleaned out all monsters - you can go back and pick up secrets you may have missed, or ammo boxes that you skipped over, but still get back to the exit reasonably quickly.

So many community maps don't have this. Instead you need to wade through such a large portion of the map to hit the first objective, then backtrack, get lost, spend time figuring out where in Blue Jesus you are, and so on, before you can progress again.

This is time that the player is spending being frustrated and annoyed instead of enjoying the gameplay that the mapper has designed.

So, rant over, that's one suggestion of where a cutscene opening the door can be helpful. You get a hint of where you need to go next, instead of hitting a button, seeing a message saying "a door has opened somewhere else", and having to spend the next half hour trying to find out where in hell that "somewhere is" actually is.

[golden_boy]

Indeed.

This can work especially well in conjunction with secrets. In that case, the cutscene shows you how the entrance looks, which you can then draw conclusions from about where it might be located.

[DaniOcampo1992]

Nope, you need Quake pak0.pak and pak1.pak (ie the full version of Quake) to play it.

Thank you very much!

[seanstar]

Hi

good job...i like this alot.

ive been adding a few models, like my old sentry port=P



this mod is fun.

i'd like it if Lord Havoc added support for these maps.

regards

Sean