Remake Quake Project

[Spiney]

Erh, there's no RMQ engine in the installer or am I missing something?

*edit okay, reinstalled and it's there now, kinda odd

[golden_boy]

seanstar: Darkplaces cannot run RMQ because of the BSP2 map format. The new format became necessary because our maps have a lot more vertices, clipnodes and all that other jazz compared to ALL previous Quake maps.

For example e2m1rq has like 77.000 vertices, but the vanilla Quake limit is 65.000. Since this number is hardcoded in the BSP file format itself, we had to change the actual format. It is a BSP format change much like HLBSP and Q3BSP.

It's possible that other engines might support RMQ in the future, since the source is available, but you would have to ask e.g. Lord Havoc to add BSP2 support.

It's the same as Nehahra really, which also needed its own engine before others added support for it.

[MH]

As GB said, the BSP2 format was absolutely essential. The options came down to cutting the maps or changing the format. In the former case it would have resulted in technology preventing creators from realizing their visions, and technology should not do that.

It is hoped - since the engine changes required for BSP2 are absolutely minimal - that this format will be picked up more widely. But that is entirely up to individual engine coders, and if someone doesn't want to do it then they won't.

IQM support is fully present and correct in the engine, and it can load and draw both version 1 and version 2 IQMs. The engine code can be used as a semi-reference for anyone else who is wanting to include IQM support, although fair warning is due that the kind of rendering code I write is slightly nuts and not very easily portable to other codebases.

r_shadows 1, entity alpha and skeletal animation via QC $frame is supported in this IQM implementation.

Credit must be given to AlienArena which I ripped a lot of the original IQM code from; that's also a very valuable resource for this, although I'd probably recommend grabbing an earlier version of it's source code for something that maps closer to trad Quake rendering.

[Spiney]

Well, MH has been kind enough to provide all the documentation and source, so I can only hope more engines support it. Would be nice for the mappers in general.

Just finished it. I'dd list the cool stuff, but frankly there's just too much of it
I'dd also not want to spoil anything!

While playing through the base maps I kept thinking to myself 'this is how Quake 2 should have been'. And the lovecraftian maps are just super awesome. This is the Romero school of FPS with gameplay pushed well into the 21st century, and it does it without all the superficial mechanics of modern FPS's.

Regarding the engine, I have to say my favourite part is the dynamic lighting, and how the overbrighting doesn't clip off anywhere.
It also felt very smooth, I can't put my finger on it. Maybe MH has been working some magic haha.

Now a couple of critiques:

* Damage blur took some getting used to, I remember hating it at first, but I kind of grew accustomed to it... so make what you will of that, maybe make it a setting or slider?
* Color overlay underwater should really be more subtle, I don't know if it's my monitor (it's calibrated fairly well) but I have a really hard time seeying stuff while underwater.
* Some of your buddies get stuck in a running pose while staying in the same spot. I also think it would be a good idea to have them acknowledge your position, since "we're in this together" ... Maybe give them a red shirt? haha.

I had some issues on E3M1:
*I got stuck near the reactor core while under lockdown, after an hour of walking around I just noclipped through the 'tactical' door. Is that door supposed to open under lockdown? I couldn't find any other way out.
* The voice was sometimes badly audible because it spoke inbetween fights with all the sounds effects going on. Maybe plot it out so it only speaks during breaks from battle?
* I think it would be totally awesome and twisted if the voice was a distinctive kid's voice. Like the 'Red Queen' in the Resident Evil film (don't know if it's a nod to RE or Portal haha) Resident Evil: Red Queen's Chamber - YouTube
(I never played any of the games)

Anyway, awesome work, it's pretty incredible seeing all this stuff in a game so old.

[MH]

the damage blur can be switched off with r_motionblur 0 if anyone is really annoyed by it. I'd recommend that people play with it on though, as it adds a somewhat more physical "feel" to when you get damaged. We found that even when godmoding through a map there was a tendency to avoid getting damaged; the instinctive tendency when it kicks in to to flinch and say "OUCH!"

There is also a full set of cvars (all beginning with "r_motionblur") to tune the effect to taste.

You can use the old "gl_cshiftpercent" cvar to drop the value of underwater colour shifts, or just switch "gl_polyblend" to 0 if you want. it's probably a good idea to make these shifts individually tunable for a future release.

The engine smoothness is a direct result of the new lightmap code. With the old code things were very jerky and uneven, and could lead to hitches every few frames when new lightmaps needed to be uploaded. The new code actually runs slower, but the hitches are gone and framerates are consistent.

[Marsha]

Congratulations for the next demo release !
It is good to see how things progress very well.

MH,
I remember you saying somewhere that you will never ever implement features into DirectQ again, that has not been deeply tested elsewhere. You want to burn your finger only once.
Now, that I read that RQP can handle and supports CSQC, I think about your opinion in implementing it into DirectQ too.

Keep up the good work.
A great team like this can do magical things.

And thank you golden_boy for mentioning the parallel to Nehahra.
You see how many years that has been and we still speak about Nehahra in highest words.
This will happen with RQP just the same. I am sure.

[MH]

"Never" is a very long time.

I can't actually recall what prompted that, but I would guess that it was primarily due to frustration with something and in the heat of a moment. It can happen to the best of us and it can even happen to me.

It's probably not appropriate to derail this thread too much with discussions about DirectQ, but in more general terms as time goes on and things work out, my own understanding of things improves - sometimes in small steps, sometimes in big steps. That can lead to changes in direction and reappraisals of what I was previously reluctant to consider.

[ijed]

Spiney - the red queen thing is a cool idea, but having her only talk between fights is pretty difficult

She could definitely use some polish though.

Getting locked in the reactor shouldn't happen, despite a bad triggering message - you kill the vore and it lets you out, unless I broke something last minute.

[FC Zvyozdochka]

Just played e3m3rq. I'm kinda disappointed.
Architecture in this level is okay, but in e2m1rq or e3mqrq it is almost as simple and "cubish" as in original 15 years old game.
But gameplay is weird and totally not of quake anymore. I just didn't know where to go , what to do, where can I get that "monstro" or which thing is heavy enough to press rusted button and where can I find it, and where can I find another 3 buttons and expecially - how can I achieve that button beyond "flying bridge" over the slime. I might as well be sleeping when played - monsters are killed but what to do then? Just walk in a circle way when brokenly trying to find what thing required to move on I missed?

Many people criticized DoE because of its weird egyptian interior, but gameplay was just the same simple, straight, fast and bloody as in original - which is good actually.

Just think for a while - original game could all be played through in about 20 minutes, some levels tooked 5-6 seconds to pass. I played only one map in RQ for about an hour of which fourty minutes was pathfinding and thinking - "what should I do to go forth"? This is very boring.

[MH]

It's accepted that this is different and as such it may not be to everybody's taste. Quake has already been done, so why recreate something that already exists? If you want to play Quake there are plenty of awesome maps you can just play Quake in.

[FC Zvyozdochka]

Yep, but still RMQ reminded me Half-Life 1 and especially Q2 (as I played it many years ago with zero english language level) - the very same corridor straying without understanding what to do. Everything has already been done some time ago, nothing is new in this world

Maybe my second and third walkthroughs will be better and more interesting, but I think you need to include more ingame tips to exclude the possibility of player's headache.

[ijed]

I need to improve the leading in e3m3rq - there's also the gold key bit in e3m1rq which is kind of confusing, but also tied into the original's layout.

I think people forget how confusing the original maps could be sometimes.

But they did get away with it by being much smaller.

The Praemonstro is just a key - it's on the ship.

To press a but with something heavy, uh, well, find something heavy you can move.

Did you try walking across the bridge? You must have done or you wouldn't have known it was there.

These three complaints sound like you want someone to hold your hand and guide you through it... so you can finish in 5-6 seconds.

[ijed]

I was a bit harsh there. It is a different experience, and you're not the only one to mention the skybridge - although I want to see more first run demos to lock down what the issue is.

Although the game has more depth, we don't want to lose the lightning fast slaughter that the original had, so its a tricky balancing act getting those two things right.

[gdiddy62]

@ijed
I like the change, but I do have to say I was confused at times and in a frustrating way. I don't want to be lead, but I also don't want to bang my head trying to figure something out. It just isn't intuitive I think. I have to say though that it does make for some fun exploration at times.

Overall, an enjoyable experience and I really like /quake being re-imagined! As much as I love the original, I'm always fascinated by the ideas people share here!!

[FC Zvyozdochka]

I was a bit harsh there. It is a different experience, and you're not the only one to mention the skybridge - although I want to see more first run demos to lock down what the issue is.

Actually this is very good recommendation!
I'll try to record some demos, but comments are needed to clarify player's thoughts. Actually it could be done in covering text file - demo xxx.dem, in yyy time I was thinking about what to do till time zzz when I ocassionnaly fall into slime where I've found flying bridge.

Remember that secret map in second Q1 episode? Doors are locked, keys are hidden, what to do? "Go for a swim first" - and then everything is clear, few seconds underwater - and here again is massacre and action.

Although the game has more depth, we don't want to lose the lightning fast slaughter that the original had, so its a tricky balancing act getting those two things right.

Maybe some gentle hints would eliminate silly pathfinding and allow player to focus on battles and actual quests? Some waypointing bright runes on the walls (remember "Wind tunnels"?), some text reminders? It is relatively easy to do and not does not require massive map editing.