In the Shadows

[gnounc]

the little touches were indeed great. I was most impressed honestly, by the guy coughing on the other side of the wall.
[spoiler]

I didn't manage to make it off the start map though. I got horribly horribly lost.
I tried to record a demo, but because I'm playing on a trackpad I died an awful lot, the demo would have been pretty useless.

I made it up to the statue before I got stuck and couldnt find a way back down or a way out or through. So I noclipped down and continued my hunt, I found a few more doors, and another elevator...which led to the same level as the statue again, and also would not go back down. so I noclipped down again..made it to the library, cleared that area out..and then was stuck again. I found a couple of "secret cubbyholes" and the dragon area..but I never made it out of the level.

Does stealth mode begin once you get the amulet? Because impulse 220 and 221 didnt work.

For the book that says it crumbles under your touch..it would be neat if that book actually crumbled. Overall I very much enjoyed the map, up until there were no more doors that would open and I couldnt make my way back down to continue exploring.
Keep it up.
[/spoiler]

[sock]

Stealth Avoidance - Gameplay Video

** spoiler alert**
If you intend to play the stealth mode of this MOD and want to discover routes for yourself, then avoid watching this video link.

Here is an example of the Avoidance Stealth gameplay on the map 'Stealth Gate'. I don't show everything, but trust me it possible to complete this map without a single kill.

Stealth Avoidance (Youtube Video)

@gnounc, the start map should have glowing arrows on most of the walls, follow them and you should not get lost. The lift down from the top temple is blocked so you don't backtrack and get lost, noclipping is where you went wrong. Once you find the shadow vault (follow the spiral stairs down) you will be in a room with lots of blood on the floor and a portcullis at one end. Find a button in this room and do the shadow tutorial. What sort of games do you normally play?

[R00k]

hehe alot of what he said i thought too. I didnt get off the map either i did noclip to see the whole map, then just typed map s1m1 to goto the next map

is it my imagination or are the textures extra pixely cause even gl_texturemode does nothing. But im not complaining I like the classic DOS look!! The particle sprites had me confused for a minute. I didnt know u could customize the particles theni realized those are sprites! NICE! The secret brushes that turn translucent is nice!! And I like it that this is using stock QuakeC. Not DP-specific. It DOES work for DirectQ as well...

[sock]

hehe alot of what he said i thought too. I didnt get off the map either i did noclip to see the whole map, then just typed map s1m1 to goto the next map

If people are getting lost then I need to know how and why. This is why I am asking people that it is important they record demos of their first play through. Later recording are worthless to be honest because they already know where they are going and will go straight there. The first experience is priceless and is always the best feedback.

The first map has a lot of routes and choices but there are large glowing arrows on the wall hinting at the best direction to go. I always find this ironic because people always complain about modern games being too linear, on rails, no choice but to be honest this is what people enjoy because they don't get lost and frustrated. I must admit I am disappointed but I only have myself to blame because if people are getting lost then the design is not right. I designed these maps to be explored, to give the player a choice, maybe that was bad idea?

is it my imagination or are the textures extra pixely cause even gl_texturemode does nothing.

When the maps load they stuff a command to the console "gl_texturemode 3" so that the graphics look old like the original Quake. I wanted the maps to feel like they are from the original game. If you want the graphics to be less pixelated then type 'gl_texturemode 4' in the console.

[R00k]

ok ok i'll record a demo of myself playing from start. I'll try to play the start again and diligently (also note RMQ engine work on this mod).

ok i pretty much got in circles but eventually by the time i get to the "training" vault im out of shotgun shells, to open the "gate". if u know what i mean. I'm not trying to spoil it for others. but i went thru the well of bones etc found the gl the lg, the ring etc. if u run out of shells before u get to the button for the gate, ull end up running around looking for WHAT NEXT?? That is if u find that button, its too high for one to use the AXE to hit.

[sock]

ok ok i'll record a demo of myself playing from start. I'll try to play the start again and diligently (also note RMQ engine work on this mod).

No no its fine, if you have played the map already then your demo will unfortunately be not much use because you know where you are going. As said earlier I am disappointed with the design, I thought it would be liked because it can be explored, but at least I know for future reference.

[R00k]

WEll the 1st time i played i got to the statue then just got lost.

i pretty much got in circles but eventually by the time i get to the "training" vault im out of shotgun shells, to open the "gate". if u know what i mean. I'm not trying to spoil it for others. but i went thru the well of bones etc found the gl the lg, the ring etc. if u run out of shells before u get to the button for the gate, ull end up running around looking for WHAT NEXT?? That is if u find that button, its too high for one to use the AXE to hit.

I like the secrets, the little tid bits that u can look for. One bit of advice though to consider, people use always run on by default. (i had to turn it off for this mod cause u run SO fast u will miss things).

Also on a side note unrelated to this mod, turning off always run SHOuLD also adjust the sidespeeds!

I think the map design is awesome! It just takes a few tries to learn the map, and find what needs to be done. New modern games just make it SO linear its not even fun. I like the multiple avenues that lead up to a secret door that pops u back out where u would have been if u went the OTHER way. There's nothing wrong with that!!

[sock]

its too high for one to use the AXE to hit.

That is exactly the sort of feedback I am after, will add it to my fix list.

One bit of advice though to consider, people use always run on by default. (i had to turn it off for this mod cause u run SO fast u will miss things).

Yeah I have noticed this in most of the demo files I have looked at today. Players generally fly around the maps and don't stop to look at things much. I did mention a ton of hints and tips in the readme file and funnily the first one I mention is turn off run!

In The Shadows - Demo 1 - Readme file
"Learn to use the walk ability of quake (constant run = bad)"

[gnounc]

lol. thats a good mom.

What sort of games do you normally play?

I took a bit of offense to the question initially until I realized it was being asked by the mods author and so it was a relevant question, and not likely a jab.
(I had to scroll back up to see who the poster was)


I've beaten every splinter cell, assassins creed 1 and 2, tenchu 1 (most of 2) and 3,
mgs1,2&3, thoroughly enjoyed renting syphon filter...beat deus ex and almost beat system shock 2..

Also symphony of the night, metroid, super metroid, final fantasy 8, mario rpg..
ninja gaiden 1 (nes).
(only listing games I perceive as relevant to the question, its not a pissing contest)

So I am into exploration games. I'm terrible at memorizing maps and recognizing landmarks to know where the fuck I am, so I tend to get lost and go around in circles..
but I'm not unfamiliar with exploration games or stealth in the least.

I thought it would be liked because it can be explored, but at least I know for future reference.

I very much appreciated the exploration aspect of the mod. It's what drew me to the mod in the first place, and I would be sorely disappointed if that were hindered in any way. I would not have been so frustrated, except I couldn't go back down once I hit those elevators. That hindered the exploration parts, and made me feel doubly lost.

Also I did read the readme. Thats how I knew to try impulse 220 and 221. Neither of which had any noticable effect for me as I mentioned. However, I do not remember the suggestion to turn run off, or I would have done so. My bad, I'll do that for the next playthrough.

edit:
ok, went back through the readme just now.

* Learn to use the walk ability of quake (constant run = bad)

I do remember reading that now.
Of course I was looking at the impulses for a run "ability" and did not find one.
I tried holding the run button to take run off, and that did not work either.
I didn't put two and two together and simply turn off +run.

[gnounc]

Impulse 246 - Toggle auto aim on/off

I also suggest people take note of this one.
In the start map there is a place where I was trying to take the auto aim off for something on my second runthrough. I kept failing at a shot that I had previously made without a hitch. This would have solved that.


edit: ok found the switch thats "damn hard to find" and then got stuck.
took a break to forum browse, and came back and found my way through.
About to enter the vault now..

[sock]

I took a bit of offense to the question initially until I realized it was being asked by the mods author and so it was a relevant question, and not likely a jab.

Sorry it sounded offensive but I wanted to know what sort of games you played. I am trying to understand why the map design is too confusing and what sort gamers this design would be aimed at. Don't worry you are not the first to say you got lost (other forums are saying the same) but it would be cool to understand why.

Impulse 246 only affects the player aim towards monsters, it was designed to give the player more of a challenge by switching all weapons to aim in a straight line and not auto-snap to monster targets. This is ON by default and probably most players don't realize it! Personally I would recommend leaving this impulse alone, it was something I was experimenting with and does not really make a huge difference.

took a break to forum browse, and came back and found my way through.

Probably the best advice for beating a frustrating situation in a game.

I would not have been so frustrated, except I couldn't go back down once I hit those elevators. That hindered the exploration parts, and made me feel doubly lost.

This was by design to reduce the amount of player floor space and stop the player getting lost searching all of the map for the way forward. I thought if players were gated into a new area they would be more likely to progress forward and open the shadow vault. Most players when lost will always go backwards thinking they have missed something (often several times) so the lifts up to the temple are all one way to give the hint, don't need to go back, there is nothing back there.

[golden_boy]

http://icculus.org/remakequake/gbshadows_1_dem.zip

Quakespasm (first run) demo, because the two engines you require don't work under my main work OS, Linux, and I couldn't be bothered to reboot my computer to XP in order to play a Quake mod (Quake is fundamentally and traditionally crossplatform, so why shouldn't it work under Linux?).

I died a bit stupidly in the start map trying to make a fiend and knight infight. I'm not motivated to continue right now because I already spent a lot of time reading books and pressing buttons and I have other things to do as well. I'll be coming back to it.

Hence, my impression was that it's mainly reading stuff and pressing buttons I don't think I ever made it to any of the tutorials I hear about.

The readme is enormously long, and the interesting stuff comes only after the credits section. I found that a bit tedious. I also think that telling veteran FPS players that "always run is bad" is rather counter-intuitive. It's true this is a mod, but it otherwise does everything to look and feel like Quake, so this is a bit jarring. Always run is standard in Quake.

The books looked all the same, so I couldn't remember which ones I had already read and which ones I hadn't. Leaving the read ones open would be a logical solution.

Having shotgun shells supplied in wooden chests was a bit strange. It stretches my suspension of disbelief that shotgun shells would come in chests.

There are a lot of arrow textures on the wall, so many that I didn't know which ones I should follow. Ideally something like this wouldn't be necessary, but the map I played is basically full of corridors that are hard to keep apart. By the way, it is very easy to get hung up on the door frames while trying to maneuver in a fight. Put clip brushes?

The books and the stuff mentioned in them like the pit of bones gave off a strong Diablo 1 feel (the Chamber of Bone, anyone?). Nice, though.

Also nice that someone apparently did their research (meaning, they used fucking Google) and used actual runes in a level. Mad props, the word "rune" is usually tossed around without thought and every weird glowing symbol is presented as a rune - it's good to see the real thing emanating from books.

Is it pure coincidence that RMQ uses an axe-backstab mechanic in its latest demo, as well?

I will come back and play more of this later.

Don't take any of this negatively, it is intended as completely neutral feedback.

[sock]

Quakespasm (first run) demo, because the two engines you require don't work under my main work OS, Linux.

Quakespasm truncates all of the text displayed by the books, which ironically you were reading! In the Shadows breaks a lot of different engine/compiler limits and luckily Fitz is a lot easier about this, Quakespasm on the other hand is a lot more strict with engine limits, which is why I don't recommend it.

I died a bit stupidly in the start map trying to make a fiend and knight infight.

Yeah I saw that in the demo, the area you were in was off the beaten trail and was designed to be tough. Also I am surprised you did not let the AI in-fight, which is how I set them up. It seems you have a shoot and ask questions later policy!

my impression was that it's mainly reading stuff and pressing buttons I don't think I ever made it to any of the tutorials I hear about.

It is hard to cater for so many different types of players. Some people just ignored the books and went straight through the map in minutes, others took their time, explored and read books. The start map was designed to offer story content (if you want it), some stealth training and eventually portals to additional maps.

The readme is enormously long, and the interesting stuff comes only after the credits section. I found that a bit tedious. I also think that telling veteran FPS players that "always run is bad" is rather counter-intuitive. It's true this is a mod, but it otherwise does everything to look and feel like Quake, so this is a bit jarring. Always run is standard in Quake.

Haha, I have never heard anyone say that about a readme file before, I thought all the extra information would be cool so players would not feel so frustrated and lost with the new stealth mode. The Always run thing is under the heading of stealth hints and tips so not sure why you would confuse this with vanilla quake. Stealth does play different, by its very nature it is a slower pace of game and a couple of people recommended to me to include something like this in the readme file because walking does become useful again.

The books looked all the same, so I couldn't remember which ones I had already read and which ones I hadn't. Leaving the read ones open would be a logical solution.

Yep, good idea.

Having shotgun shells supplied in wooden chests was a bit strange. It stretches my suspension of disbelief that shotgun shells would come in chests.

I wanted one of the ammo pickups to be a chest (fits with the medieval vibe better) and also to move away from the tech style. Having the shell symbol on the side is certainly cheesy but I did not want to confuse people too much about its content.

There are a lot of arrow textures on the wall, so many that I didn't know which ones I should follow. Ideally something like this wouldn't be necessary, but the map I played is basically full of corridors that are hard to keep apart.

Yeah the map is very maze like, especially with so many archways and places to turn. The lit arrows is the primary route, the unlit arrows the secondary route, but generally people follow combat to areas not arrows.

[R00k]

ok cool now i see why some of the arrows on the start map are not lit up. and why some walls look like they have a secret door made of bricks. If u make it thru s1m1 and s1m2 u are teleported back to the start map, this time the monsters are placed in a mirror fashion, and the map opens up a different way!

Personally I like to use the RMQ engine for this mod it just works perfectly.

EDIT: One thing I noticed going from the start map to s1m1 I lost all my weapons.

[golden_boy]

I think I just automatically played this like I would play Quake, since it gives off such a classic Quake vibe and I found myself spawning with a shotgun in hand.

Hmm, perhaps having the player start with only the axe would send a strong signal that this isn't your daddy's Quake. It just didn't seem obviously different and I guess I just fell into my standard FPS trot because nothing kept me from it.

Perhaps I just didn't play long enough yet. Will continue recording when I play more.

PS, it didn't occur to me that the books were truncated... there were no sentences cut in half or anything, so nothing seemed obviously fishy. - I might have used a very old version of Quakespasm, not sure.