In the Shadows

[sock]

After the second play session it's apparent how irrelevant my previous comments were. The skill pillars mention Nightmare directly after the second shot and the slime is hinted, even if the texture resembles water.

No your feedback was not irrelevant because the slime is a valid point. Slime in the original game was solid green, modern engines offer alpha on liquids but this also has the side effect of making the slime look watery. The quake engine adds to the confusion by playing a damn water sound so it is not surprising you thought green water! I have found an acid bubble/burning sound and I will play that around the slime area. I will also increase the water alpha so it is more slime like.
Your problem with the nightmare mode is to do with how games teach players to interact with their environment, hitting / bumping / touching is the standard way to interact. The touch function is really a Quake experience, I will have to think about the nightmare mode selection again.
Thanks for the demo's I will have a look at them.

[gnounc]

i liked the difficulty select a lot.
There is a book directly next to the slime that mentions its slime.
Though I guess it should be obvious from looking at it too.

[Eloke]

Got to m1 and m2.

"Locked" messages were a bit unclear compared to default "opens elsewhere", as I began looking first for possible custom keys and then for specific triggers, not button sequences.

Do monsters behind locked doors unlock them upon approach? There were a couple times when I set off large mobs (by being seen or provoking infighting), and after that some locked doors were open. I assumed someone came in that way.

The well at the beginning of s1m2 seems too narrow, given player speed, even walking, is rather high. Took me good three seconds to aim for the fall without leaping to the opposite edge, pleading silently for the guard two steps away not to turn around

Didn't record a full demo this time, as learning stealth turned out to be a quickload spree. Here's a small demo of an alcove that seems bugged a bit, with enemies getting stuck and unable to reach the player: Download alcovebug.zip from Sendspace.com - send big files the easy way

As for the slime, can transparency be combined with fullbright colours? I was thinking about glowing yellow blobs floating on the surface, or something like that.

[golden_boy]

I'm not sure if you can have the slime be an entity in vanilla quake... because then you could set a lower alpha value.

It's only a small point anyway.

I was too busy lately to play anything, but I will try to get some more demos in Sock!

[sock]

"Locked" messages were a bit unclear compared to default "opens elsewhere", as I began looking first for possible custom keys and then for specific triggers, not button sequences.

Haha, I know what you mean but "opens elsewhere" is equally as vague! I changed it to locked because I always thought the original ID message was too weird, how do you know it opens elsewhere? but you can tell if something is locked or not, oh well crazy logic.

Do monsters behind locked doors unlock them upon approach? There were a couple times when I set off large mobs (by being seen or provoking infighting), and after that some locked doors were open. I assumed someone came in that way.

Oh yeah the AI will open stuff to get to you! I am sure some people might use this as a way to get to places quicker but I thought it would be cool if the AI had keys to open things. This is what I was hinting at in the start map, big silver key next to dead guard body, well it seemed logically at the time!

The well at the beginning of s1m2 seems too narrow, given player speed, even walking, is rather high. Took me good three seconds to aim for the fall without leaping to the opposite edge, pleading silently for the guard two steps away not to turn around

By design and it worked perfectly because you were pleading to get down the well quicker, sort of building tension.

as learning stealth turned out to be a quickload spree.

Ok this comment worries me because why were you quick loading all the time? Do you normally play stealth games? Were you rushing around all the time? Did you pay attention to what the AI were doing? Did you expect stealth to be easier? What skill were you playing on? Did you walk or run all the time? I really need to know more hence the demo's or a good description of what you were doing. Say it exactly how you feel, no need for sugar coating. Maybe I can tweak stuff for easier skill settings.

I watched your previous demo and you seem to be wandering around without much worry of things, reading books with mobs hitting you, trying to axe AI to death. The stealth mode in this MOD is designed to be hard, it is suppose to be the next mode up from vanilla gameplay.

Here's a small demo of an alcove that seems bugged a bit

Fixed thanks.

As for the slime, can transparency be combined with fullbright colours? I was thinking about glowing yellow blobs floating on the surface, or something like that.

It could be for sure I will have to do some tests. For the moment I had increased the alpha and added an acid burn environment sound around the slime.

I will try to get some more demos in Sock!

Please do I am very interesting to know what you think of the MOD. I do plan to release another version after xmas if you want to wait for that one.

[Eloke]

Watched Custom Gamer's walkthough and did another run of the Castle. As I thought, troubles had to do with my own mistakes, not some design flaws.

First, I kept bumping into everyone from behind and hitting them when they were already on alert. See, in Dishonored or Deus Ex 3 you get a clear message if you are in melee range (disarm/kill icons), same with Prince of Persia 3 (dagger flash). In the first Splinter Cell you can't swing your fists in the air, so you can approach an enemy mashing attack button, and something happens only if you are in range. In Quake you can attack at will, but if you strike too early, you're wasting a second before you can attack again, and that second is enough to touch the enemy.
I remember facing the same problems in the early stages of Deus Ex 1 and Thief, which used backstabbing system similar to yours (unrestricted strike with no obvious range hints). Just a matter of learning the game's pacing and dimensions, it does cause a bunch of reloads in the very beginning, but solves itself naturally as you adapt.

Another issue was underestimating of your AI, as I tried to hide under the nearest cover and waiting, as I would do in vanilla Quake. Sure, nothing good came from it, as I got surrounded and slaughtered in a matter of seconds. As soon as I learned to run as far as I could and use the pentagram as a decoy, everything changed drastically.

Second attempt at the Castle went not only without a single reload, but without taking a single hit (on Normal). So I thought it all turned out to be natural process of failing, learning and getting better at the game.

The only minor issue was the Hell Knight guarding an armor, the one you're supposed to telefrag (at least that's what I saw in CG playthrough). He must've noticed me before and changed postition, so i spawned right in front of him and barely managed to dodge. Don't know if you intended that to be a strictly telefrag event.

Oh yeah, environmental hazards like spikes were awesome. I managed to backstab a stunned ogre after he was hit by a spike and fell on the floor. And lightning traps were very interesting.

[golden_boy]

http://icculus.org/remakequake/gbshadows2_dem.zip

More start map playing Sock, I found the vault button first time.

Crits:

I still get hung up on geometry while trying to dodge monsters, I'd really suggest clip brushes around the little pillars that are against the outer walls. Possibly wedge shaped clips between the pillars and the wall. That's a quick copy and paste job, mostly, and it would help.

Died very stupidly and found it a little unfair. See for yourself. I would have expected a hint, and some time before I got instakilled. As it is, your tutorial lured me onto a dirty sawblade.

I didn't realize the colour coding at first. I would have expected to see a sleeping eye or something. I wish this was explained better and perhaps the tutorial monster would not do any damage - a training dummy.

I noticed the secret buttons by looking at the arrows - this is a nice effect, but I still think there are too many arrows. Anyway, finding the vault button followed logically from that. Easy as pie.

A bit more health would be nice even on Hard (the skill setting was not obvious - is the glowing one the currently active skill, or do I have to do anything to activate them?).

Practically all modern Quake levels have too little health on all skills, probably because mappers are ultra-veteran players themselves or think it is somehow uncool to give too much health. For comparison, I don't play Quake very often, and so tend to need more health. Lack of health kits isn't the best way to raise the difficulty.

[MadGypsy]

What are some "best ways" to raise the difficulty.

Obviously, I have my own answers. I'm interested in yours.

[golden_boy]

Mine? OK, I think the best way to raise the difficulty in a shooter are:

a) more damage from monsters

b) more intelligent monsters with varied attacks

c) traps, platforming, puzzles, all mixed in with combat. Having to navigate a lava pit while holding off some monsters does raise the difficulty. Threat of falling to your death (or having to backtrack) also works.

In other words, I think the challenge should be in the gameplay, not the lack of resources (and definitely not in sheer monster hitpoints, because that slows the game down). But that's just my opinion.

I'm not saying Sock doesn't put enough health kits because he is lame, it was a more general remark. I didn't die from lack of health kits after all (well, more health would have helped, but it wasn't what killed me).

[sock]

I remember facing the same problems in the early stages of Deus Ex 1 and Thief, which used backstabbing system similar to yours (unrestricted strike with no obvious range hints).

I really liked the early thief system, when they changed how the player hit enemies in the third version I was disappointed. This is something I don't like too much with modern games that you are only allowed to do things when it is designed that way. I know quake is old school but it is very much more freeform and that is what I wanted to keep with my MOD. Probably why it is difficult to learn because it does not use modern stealth systems.

Another issue was underestimating of your AI

I am glad the AI surprised you, I spent ages trying to make them better at tracking down the player. I hate the dumbness of vanilla quake with monsters running at walls and having problems with small steps. The E1 remakes (s1m1,s1m2) are the test maps for the AI systems, I wanted to create something that is a challenge for the AI and found these maps did the job well enough. Obviously they are not perfect but they are certainly better than my initial box maps.

The only minor issue was the Hell Knight guarding an armor, the one you're supposed to telefrag (at least that's what I saw in CG playthrough)

The telefrag of the knight is just luck, one of his patrol points is the teleporter destination but it is pure luck getting him to be there at the right moment.

I still get hung up on geometry while trying to dodge monsters, I'd really suggest clip brushes

I have a lot of clipping already, all the door frames and most of the arches have some clipping. I will re-check and see if I can add some more.

Died very stupidly and found it a little unfair. See for yourself.

This is partly because of the mistake at the beginning. You selected easy skill, then shot one of the pillars which started the nightmare sequence which switched your skill to hard. (need to remove that stupid nightmare switch) Then everything after that was spawning as hard skill because I use a dynamic system. All the health packs are switched down to 15hp and most of the ammo boxes are switched to large.

My formula for skill levels is 25hp for easy, 15-25hp for normal and 15hp for hard with the ammo going the other way from small for easy and large for hard. The assumption is that an easy player has less mobs to fight and needs less ammo but more health because of combat mistakes. A hard player is more skilled, needs more ammo for harder/more mobs and should not need tons of health because they should be skilled enough to cope. If the player is in no fear of dying and has huge amounts of health packs around then there is no challenge besides shooting. Part of the thrill of quake is the fact you have separate systems to manage and skilled players do treat them different. I tested it on a wide variety of players and most think it is fair.

I didn't realize the colour coding at first. I would have expected to see a sleeping eye or something. I wish this was explained better and perhaps the tutorial monster would not do any damage - a training dummy.

I have toned down the damage that tutorial monsters do so you can survive longer, but you were on hard skill and mobs do so much damage at that skill it is pretty much one shot kill. I think part of the problem was you walked straight up to the monster and then stood behind it while the eye was flashing red. Again this is all linked to skill level and switching the skill to hard by mistakes screwed most of your play through on balance issues. I have linked tons of stuff to skill levels and it really shows on your demo.

[sock]

Mine? OK, I think the best way to raise the difficulty in a shooter ...

I totally agree on points A, B and C but I don't understand how lack of resources (management really) is not something built into Quake, like when do you use a health pack or pick up ammo. I don't want people to feel like they have buckets of ammo or health on lower skill levels, I thought if I balance it so that easy through to hard skill, players need to think about health and ammo management then it should be more challenging.

I really liked the idea of dynamic skills and took it one step further by it affecting what ammo/health is spawned and to me it feels more balanced now because the ammo matches what you face (monster toughness) and the health is designed to buffer combat mistakes on lower skills. The worst problem with skill levels in games is that you get players who refuse to use them and then complain that the default skill is either too easy or too hard!

I played with the dynamic skill system for a while and I really wanted to create those moments in games where the player is down to their last ammo or low on health and they finally get through it. No one remembers the games where you have too much health or a truck load of ammo and nothing to shoot. I wanted the resource to match the skill and create the cool moments when resources are just enough to win!

[gnounc]

one of my proudest moments in gaming history was the very end of splinter cell chaos theory. My dad had gotten to the very last stretch of the last level...with 6 bullets and 9 enemies and one hit left, and asked me to sort it out.

It took me a solid 2 hours to beat.
All perfect headshots and a sticky shocker.
The remaining two kills must have been stealth melees, I dont recall.

[MadGypsy]

@6 & 9

That's pretty damn good. You know you were sweating balls right before you killed the last guy.

[golden_boy]

All the health packs are switched down to 15hp

Yeah, this might have been it. Wow, that is pretty crass when you think about it.

Regarding dying at the stealth monster, the system was just not immediately clear to me. When the eye turned red, I did finally get it and then I saw the message, too, and started to back away, but the attack came so fast that I simply couldn't react quickly enough. I was not prepared for something like that because of all the centerprinting and the monster having its back turned, so I thought it was a tutorial. The tutorial turned into an attack extremely quickly, with a short warning time, and I guess my health was already down but I don't remember.

I would usually have tested on Normal, but it wasn't clear to me how to read the skill selection. I thought I was on the default difficulty until the nightmare thing happened.

About resource management, yes, I know that, but health is a resource that keeps the player playing your game, which is what you want. Having to manage ammo for different weapons is slightly different from that because in the end, you always have the axe. But with health, it is: No health, no game.

I just thought there were a few too little health kits, but the skill thing explains that. Still, this has a *lot* less resources than vanilla Quake does on Hard. No doubt every health kit is lovingly placed

Compare Quake, though, which does *not* reduce the amount of health in a pack on Hard skill. Doing that is pretty harsh IMO, definitely harsher than vanilla Quake. I was constantly wounded while I played, pretty much. Personally I just think that's unnecessary hardship, IMO when the player finds a healthkit it should well heal them up, but health was at a premium here.

Other players probably don't notice this as much because they're playing Quake all the time. It's a common problem and I have criticized many recent maps for the same thing (people usually laugh at you when you say their map is too hard, unfortunately). It's your game though, of course, so you decide.

The fact I still haven't reached the other maps because I keep dying is becoming a downer. I thought there wasn't really a lot of ammo frankly, which made me try and get monsters to infight to save ammo, which in turn had me getting hit a few times trying to dodge fiends etc, so I lost health instead of ammo.

The enemies also seem relatively high level already from the start. Quite a few fiends and hellknights. Typical vanilla Quake maps have more low level enemies mixed in and/or more resources.

Difficulty wise, it felt like a Quoth map.

[sock]

Yeah, this might have been it. Wow, that is pretty crass when you think about it.

I think you are over reacting, you were playing the map on a hard skill level and were frustrated because there was a lack of health. I accept that the setup of the skill selection was my fault but you need to play the map on all skill levels to see how the system works. It balances the ammo / health levels really well to what challenges (monster types) the player will face and most importantly it is linked to the skill level.

As I said the system is dynamic spawning, there is still the same amount of health packs as before, they are just not as powerful, infact 10hp less. I think the name of the skill level says it all, hard, this is not easy or normal, this is designed to be hard. Sure it not the original Quake skill levels but that was never my design goal, I want skill levels to be exactly what they are named after. I personally tested all skill levels and found the balance was good and this is also not taking into account any secrets items. This system is purely about balance of items openly available in the map.

I highly recommend you fly around the map in notarget and see the changes for yourself, I think you need to see more of what it is doing first before dismissing it.