Reviving the dead fella :) aka GPL Multiplayer Quake Client.

[d1554573r]

@mhquake
I have to totally agree with You.

@lxndr
"the meat" as You called the game data can be the point to start actually.
And believe me sounds can be done in a week, tops!

Perhaps we souldnt focus that much on the engine it self its even good we got lots of them to choose from, according to Darwin - variety is a key for survival

@os_flame_wars
Ubuntu is as good as any other distro based on debian well essentially it is a flashy debian but with better community support (check ubuntu formus for example), and it works nice.

[Baker]

I look at things from NOT from what could make a "GPL Quake" popular, but what weaknesses could undermine it AFTER the boom.

Here is my list:

1. Lack of administrative controls on servers. Seriously. Abusive players can follow a player from server to server (I've seen it). Lack of chat filtering and such. Currently, running a server can require a lot of supervision -- far more than it should. And the ability for a "Kimp" to cause chaos without a way to just globally snuff him out on every server. This isn't an issue someone else needs to solve, it is perfectly without the ballpark of what R00k, Solecord, Efess and I can do. But it is not #1 on my list right now.

2. No vanilla Q1. Vanilla Q1 doesn't cut it. You can't vote maps, vote mods, can't vote team play modes. Within the realm of what the established QuakeC modders can solve. Requires time.

3. Server mod selection. The Universal Server project ("run all open source mods on a single server") is a big step towards addressing that issue and knocking that out.

There are other things, of course. But none that in the long run cannot be solved.

And graphics matter. Not much of an issue, the important quality control and infrastructural support can be ported to any engine rather easily. Case in point, I'm rather certain DirectQ has HTTP download, for instance.

[Baker]

@mhquake
I have to totally agree with You.

@lxndr
"the meat" as You called the game data can be the point to start actually.
And believe me sounds can be done in a week, tops!

Perhaps we souldnt focus that much on the engine it self its even good we got lots of them to choose from, according to Darwin - variety is a key for survival

I'm rather certain that in the long run, the engine stuff is covered.

If you want to press ahead with your project, then do it knowing the engines will eventually follow you.

There is no other way to do a project than doing it. No other way to start it than starting it.

There is no problem using DarkPlaces as the developmental platform for starting your prototype.

[MH]

I look at things from NOT from what could make a "GPL Quake" popular, but what weaknesses could undermine it AFTER the boom.

Here is my list:

1. Lack of administrative controls on servers. Seriously. Abusive players can follow a player from server to server (I've seen it). Lack of chat filtering and such. Currently, running a server can require a lot of supervision -- far more than it should. And the ability for a "Kimp" to cause chaos without a way to just globally snuff him out on every server. This isn't an issue someone else needs to solve, it is perfectly without the ballpark of what R00k, Solecord, Efess and I can do. But it is not #1 on my list right now.

2. No vanilla Q1. Vanilla Q1 doesn't cut it. You can't vote maps, vote mods, can't vote team play modes. Within the realm of what the established QuakeC modders can solve. Requires time.

3. Server mod selection. The Universal Server project ("run all open source mods on a single server") is a big step towards addressing that issue and knocking that out.

There are other things, of course. But none that in the long run cannot be solved.

And graphics matter. Not much of an issue, the important quality control and infrastructural support can be ported to any engine rather easily. Case in point, I'm rather certain DirectQ has HTTP download, for instance.

This is where you and I differ man, but that's OK.

I don't think that the average potential player (APP) really gives two hoots about server capabilities. A Quake server is a great thing to be sure, but all the APP wants is to dive in and play the game. It's the simple accessibility of Quake that is it's appeal. There will always be room for the 'ardkore of course, but that accessibility has to be maintained for the casual players too.

Here, in my opinion, is what kills the accessibility of Quake for the APP:

It's too goddamned frickin' difficult and fiddly to install and run a map or a mod.

There is a goldmine of top-notch content available, the quality level is ultra high, but this stumbling block hits so many people. Tools like the Quake Injector help, but it's a standalone tool that you need to download and install too, and you need that awful Java thing to use it. Let's have Quake Injector functionality built into the engine instead. As standard.

You need to go fooling around with the command-line and console.

It's not 1996 anymore and these are accessibility barriers that some people will never get over. Spend even 1 week working on a helpdesk and you will know what I mean and agree with me. The command-line and console are great features for the uber-1337, but they should be optional, not required. Kill -heapsize, it's not 1996 anymore so just take 64, 128 or 256 MB of RAM and be done with it. Do a video menu, do a mods menu, put mouselooking on by default, put the crosshair on by default, expose the options that the APP needs the most and don't send them into the 7th circle of hell every time.

It's too damned difficult to install Quake!

Shareware Quake is a thundering disgrace. You need to download a zip file (or even floppy images. Floppy images! In 2010!), arse around with DosBox to get it installed, then figure out how to copy to your PC, then find that Quake.exe won't work, then go looking on the internet for what the hell is going on, find an alternate client (and God help you if it's one that requires it's own gamedir and doesn't load it automatically for you), figure out how in the blue blazes you install that, and then have it blow up in your face because you don't have glibweenie 1.6.2 installed (what do you mean you don't? Surely everybody has that!) It's a minor miracle that anybody actually makes it through. Installing Quake shouldn't be an obstacle course, and ID software need to be petitioned to put a decent modern installer that actually works on their FTP.

[Baker]

This is where you and I differ man, but that's OK.

I don't think that the average potential player (APP) really gives two hoots about server capabilities. A Quake server is a great thing to be sure, but all the APP wants is to dive in and play the game. It's the simple accessibility of Quake that is it's appeal. There will always be room for the 'ardkore of course, but that accessibility has to be maintained for the casual players too.

Here, in my opinion, is what kills the accessibility of Quake for the APP:

It's too goddamned frickin' difficult and fiddly to install and run a map or a mod.

There is a goldmine of top-notch content available, the quality level is ultra high, but this stumbling block hits so many people. Tools like the Quake Injector help, but it's a standalone tool that you need to download and install too, and you need that awful Java thing to use it. Let's have Quake Injector functionality built into the engine instead. As standard.

Before there was the Quake Injector, I piloted around with the concept of doing it in a launcher.





http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-tal...game-tron.html (A totally working prototype I made back whenever ...)

(Part of the motivation to create the Game-A-Tron was stir up Spirit, which worked as the Quake Injector now exists ... heheheh. Yes, I am sneaky like that.)

Integrating something like the Quaddicted database would not be "hard" but just be working through the busy work and dotting i's and crossing t's. It would be a bit of work and require a bit of effort, but just working through the details carefully and handling error conditions and such. No doubt the Quaddicted might need to be changed just a bit (there is always some curve ball).

Shareware Quake is a thundering disgrace. You need to download a zip file (or even floppy images. Floppy images! In 2010!), arse around with DosBox to get it installed, then figure out how to copy to your PC, then find that Quake.exe won't work, then go looking on the internet for what the hell is going on, find an alternate client (and God help you if it's one that requires it's own gamedir and doesn't load it automatically for you), figure out how in the blue blazes you install that, and then have it blow up in your face because you don't have glibweenie 1.6.2 installed (what do you mean you don't? Surely everybody has that!) It's a minor miracle that anybody actually makes it through. Installing Quake shouldn't be an obstacle course, and ID software need to be petitioned to put a decent modern installer that actually works on their FTP.

This is very true.

To add to the list ... if you were to have a modern paradigm, you'd want to be able to coop "peer-to-peer" (network protocol and such) and be able to trust mods on a modern server with features that players expect. A dent in this is some of the closed source mods have insurmountable Achilles heels when it comes to running them on servers. A shame. Many examples of this (Quoth, Travail, etc.). A number of players wanted to play Travail coop (who wouldn't!) and FOQ setup a server and if you get the silver key and die, no more key! And the server is permanently stuck on that map with no way to progress. As one example.

(Yet another reason I think open source everything is important. 5 minute quick fixes are impossible with closed source mods. Something that can be fixed in 5 minutes, as a result can never be fixed. And Quake will be around a very, very long time ...)

[gnounc]

I'm half tempted to see what kind of benefits steam provides for quake. Zero setup, instant server, and chat are provided for all steam games, so thats good. Quakes got a lot of options though.

Dissaster, I know you didnt explicitly volunteer, but if you were to make high quality sound effects...they'd get used, gpl project or not. And as a result you'd be one step closer to that as well, Bakers not trying to shoot down the idea...if you look up a little project called SynQ you'll see that he's saying its difficult because he's tried it.

Also is Project Aftershock (mindgrindz?) gpl? I think I heard its not, if so that covers the music.

http://project-aftershock.newgrounds.com/

looks like Creative Commons...copyrights really not my field...Baker?

Annnnd lastly MH dont think you've escaped me..

Let's have Quake Injector functionality built into the engine instead. As standard.

Dooooooooes this mean if we ask for this down the road we might get that in DirectQ or RMQ and an engine tut?

[d1554573r]

@grounc

Okey, i'll start collecting samples today for sfx. In fact i'll start right now

EDIT:
There are 225 sounds in total, 31 for player . After i rule out the SP relative ones it's going be a piece of cake...

Okey, so i need to clarify one thing, maps WERE released with GPL license right? (all of them sp+dm?)

[Mindf!3ldzX]

Yes, Romero released them a few years back. Concerns are around textures/models/sounds.

[d1554573r]

I will gather all stuff released by community and then i'll check whats missing in general.

[Baker]

I'll contribute information I have to this thread as time permits on existing resources.

I'll add that although DarkPlaces can't be the single candidate for such a thing, using DarkPlaces additive features like the ones you like for work is no problem.

Even targeting, say, .md3 instead of .mdl shouldn't be a problem either. As MH has said having reasonable standards should be a guiding principle and there is no reason that a software renderer like WinQuake need be in the fold. Both OpenGL and DirectX are so widely supported that scarcely a desktop exists that can't run one or the other.

1. Qwalk ... model converter by Sajt. q3 --> q1 and back as I understand it.

http://www.icculus.org/qshed/qwalk/

2. textures2quake

http://forums.inside3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=1975 Can easily convert the entire Nexuiz texture set, for example, into Quake compatible textures and maintaining the high res ones for replacement textures.

3. QuakeOne Navigator ... http://quakeone.com/navigator



4. fimg http://www.inside3d.com/frikbot/fimg/

The status bar, Hud and menu graphics are another things that needs addressed. All of those must be remade. There are A LOT of them. Someone really should design an entirely new HUD that looks cool. Whatever someone comes up with could be coded into the engine, I'd volunteer to do the engine support as a tutorial for any given engine to add support for if someone made a great HUD.

Bakers not trying to shoot down the idea

Yes, I'm certainly not trying to shoot down the idea, but I have plenty of experience sizing the task up and I'm trying to communicate the volume of work it requires and the issues that require the most attention.

[MH]

Dooooooooes this mean if we ask for this down the road we might get that in DirectQ or RMQ and an engine tut?

Possibly DirectQ but not RMQ; RMQ has different goals. No engine tut either as that would need libcurl but I'll be using the Windows API instead.

[gnounc]

sweeeet -_-

as for the engines, lxndr has quore here, and r00k has expressed some interest recently in doing a linux build for qrack.

Sorry for never bringing up proquake baker, I'm not familiar with it at all lol.
I looked up proquake and It's got a linux build as well.

[Baker]

sweeeet -_-

as for the engines, lxndr has quore here, and r00k has expressed some interest recently in doing a linux build for qrack.

Sorry for never bringing up proquake baker, I'm not familiar with it at all lol.
I looked up proquake and It's got a linux build as well.

An old out of date one. The primary purpose of the Linux build was so that servers could run anti-wallhack. I was making great headway back at the time building up the Linux version ... and then I accidentally foobar'd my Linux machine trying to install a memory chip in a tight spot.

Ironic fact: Quakespasm is derived from my "unofficial FitzQuake 0.85 SDL" The RMQ engine is derived from Quakespasm

Significant, not really. Funny to me, yes. I'm glad someone took that "unofficial FitzQuake 0.85 SDL" I made and ran with it and made lots of improvements. I made it mostly because of the shock and horror of reading that the "real FitzQuake 0.85" wouldn't happen until 2010 back in early 2009.

[MH]

ProQuake rocks and the reason why it rocks is because it's the standard for the MP part of the community and has cool server features as well as client features. Now, I did say that Joe Player who's not involved in the community doesn't give a flying one about server features, and I'll stand by that, but it's not to run down the importance of server features but just to bring forward the point that there are more serious issues that need to be prioritized higher.

Essentially, if ProQuake had some more offline-oriented features added, big map capacity, and did some more work to break down some of those accessibility barriers I mentioned, I wouldn't hesitate in describing it as the perfect client of choice for maybe 90% of potential players.

[d1554573r]

@baker
thanks, for info and advices and im aware that dp shouldnt be a target engine but for testing purposes its going to be fine.

Update me with intel when You find some time after all You are far longer in the scene then i am

I'll share some intel on the stuff im doing here now

I already made a shedule and im about to make to do list as soon as i finish my ... dummy pak0.pak

My first though was to replace old textures with new ones in the pak0.pak itself but that was dumb idea, after all engine can carry out swamping the texutres and models so instead i decided to make a dummy one for debugging purposes, each texture gets replaced with a black texture with filename on it. I got map sources and im inserting dummy textures into them as i write this text here.

If everything goes fine, then after adding community gathered content regular way (trough engine) should replace dummy qubes for models and textures, and if something will be missing i'll know what to look for.

Im not a coder but i got a lot of expiriance in development from WOW scene

Sorry for typos i just got my windows installed for this projects purpose and i dont have english vocabulary in ffx yet

And Yes Baker - it's gonna take a lot of work till it gets done, i would be glad if You guys around here could upload or provide links for intresting community stuff here since shub-hub is down its kinda hard to get all of them from google.

Update:
This md3 to mdl converter works perfect i just changed moo's player model to mdl