(Poll) Main reasons for using GLProQuake rather than DarkPlaces

[foq]

I really liked darkplaces back in elery/mid 2005 when it was simpler

[Baker]

The new March 15 build has a revamped menu and it is vastly more convenient than the past DP builds

That was fast!

/Has trouble connecting to servers, but LordHavoc knows about this.

[Baker]

I have no idea why it does not connect to Quake/ProQuake servers for some people, it does for me, and I've heard it even changes from day to day for some people... Any information on this would be much appreciated as I clearly can't reproduce it here.

If you want to send me a packet log it might help:
log_file connectproblem.log
developer 100
developer_networking 1
connect ca.quakeone.com
<wait until it times out>
connect ca.runequake.com
<wait until it times out>
connect quake.intertex.net
<wait until it times out>
quit

Then just send me that log file.

(note: developer_networking prints every packet, and developer 10 or higher prints some extra messages of interest)

That cvar is server side, so it is of no concern as a client.

Here is the log I got when trying to connect to a server:

http://www.quakeone.com/q1files/connectproblem.log

[Canadian*Sniper]

As my post on the DP news states, I did not implement the cvars, I only implemented hardcoded values for them. If you really want the cvars added I can do so, but it will make .loc loading a bit slower.

The fact that you took care of the $qwmacros makes me happy enough Don't worry about it.

[Yellow No. 5]

Proquake is 4+ years out of any development and the community desperately needs a new de facto client. Dp is obviously the most technically superior by far, and it would be awesome for the netquake community if it was remodeled into the perfect multiplayer netquake client, with a new cheatfree,.but in my opinion it would need a lot of major changes for that to happen. I would like to respectfully explain my perspective.

For dp to become the standard like pq has been the standard, dp needs to do the same thing pq does, which is to not change the game while making it better. No one uses regular id quake over proquake, because proquake is exactly the same only better. It seems to me that darkplaces makes a lot of technical improvements but to me the end result is that it feels weird, and isn�t quake but rather a derivative game based on quake. Even awesome features like rt lights change the game, which changes what 1 player sees from the next (who is hiding in the shadows, what items are visible etc).

Darkplaces does so much that isn�t necessary for most netquake players, and until recently didn�t do a lot of stuff that PQ does (scoreboard pings, locs, and such). And it still doesn't support serveral features that may are requried for pq users. IMO 100% compatibility with basic id quake and 100% support of all PQ features will be required for it to catch on at all. Quakec for example is old and limited and updating it may make sense from a practical point of view, but the end result is it will never ever be widely used. I remember LH not wanting to add iplog before because it wasn�t 100% accurate and didn�t support ip6, and I�m confused about LH not wanted to support pq rcon because he doesn�t like the way it�s coded Players don�t care they just will not use a engine that doesn�t have the features they are used to. I�d never use an engine no matter how �advanced� if it didn�t have the features in qrack I like such as custom mm2 noise, auto demoing of all games, and readable scoreboard.

Here is my quake fantasy engine, that I think the community would love, and would fill servers and inspire generations of quake faithful:
--------------------------------------------------

A server that is 100% compatible with standard quakec, would allow any basic netquake client to connect to, but would support better netcode and other improvements if the client could. A cheatfree mode that lets anyone connect and chat but only security passed clients could play (or just specifying certain IP addresses as needing to pass to play).

Nice features like bump mapping, and improved visual clarity (I love how qrack and joequake look, so much more clear and less washed out, and non-brown custom textures!) without changing standard quake lighting so that what items and parts of the map (and players) remains consistent. How about interpolating in more polys so maps and models look more rounded?

Simple server browser that just looks for a servers.txt in ~/quake (or http:quakeone.com/servers.txt) and runs test on servers in the file and displays the results in a list. (Having a master server is just not as practical).

Downloading of missing maps/models/etc from a specified archive of compressed files used by custom servers (e.g. http://quakeone.com/serverfiles/) only have shareware pak0? No problem /serverfiles has gpl compliant dm3 with custom non-id textures!

[Baker]

Proquake is 4+ years out of any development and the community desperately needs a new de facto client.

Very true. I made the ProQuake Launcher as a "band-aid" for all the things that the engine doesn't do (can't set brightness except on the command line, etc.).

For dp to become the standard like pq has been the standard, dp needs to do the same thing pq does, which is to not change the game while making it better.

I don't think DarkPlaces has to become "the standard"; if it connects to servers and plays as well as other engines and is easy to use and reliable and has the same features then players will use it and like it.

The menu redesign makes a huge difference and once the current problem connecting to NQ servers is fixed, hopefully I will be done using GLPRO.

It isn't that GLPRO is "bad", but that the only asset that GLPRO has is that it is trusty and reliable.

It seems to me that darkplaces makes a lot of technical improvements but to me the end result is that it feels weird, and isn’t quake but rather a derivative game based on quake.

If it looks nice and you get to feel right, I don't think it doesn't matter if it feels faithful or not as long as you like it (although a "faithful" setting would be cool).

Almost anyone that uses Qrack or JoeQuake uses 24 bit textures that remind no one of the original Quake.

And it still doesn't support serveral features that may are requried for pq users.

Other than IPLOG and ProQuake server RCON (*), I can't think of any other signficant features that DP doesn't support now and those 2 features aren't one that I think make anyone choose an engine. I love pq_teamscores, yeah but how hard could that be to code, seriously? Demo recording while connected? Well, yeah and while that is important to eventually have, someone else can record a demo for a match

ProQuake historically evolved into the defacto standard because there was something wrong with every other engine.

What engines players prefer is for them to decide, but I know ProQuake gets used not because it is the best but rather because it was the least worst.

While I admire the forward seeing changes made to ProQuake at the time (it was a very well designed engine ... pq_smoothcam/pq_teamscores/etc.), there is nothing that I'd like to be able to say more to someone than to recommend an engine that isn't ProQuake with full confidence that they won't get confused or feel at a disadvantage.

As soon as the NQ server connecting thing is fixed, I'm pretty sure that DarkPlaces now fits squarely in that category.

[LordHavoc]

Here is the log I got when trying to connect to a server:

http://www.quakeone.com/q1files/connectproblem.log

Looks like a router issue to me - the client sends the connect command, the server tells it about the new connection, it sends a packet to the new port on the server, and the server never sends it anything (meaning the info got dropped by the router).

[Baker]

I just bypassed my router and connected my PC directly to my cable modem, but it still doesn't let me play and sits there with "Connection Accepted to ...". I even disabled my software firewall. I tried a couple of difference servers without the router/software firewall.

http://www.quakeone.com/q1files/connectproblem4.log

One difference is that unlike before, without the router the packet log never stopped so it never reached a timeout point (or whatever, not my field of specialty )

/I can connect to DP and QW servers just fine, just not NQ ones.

[LordHavoc]

For dp to become the standard like pq has been the standard, dp needs to do the same thing pq does, which is to not change the game while making it better. No one uses regular id quake over proquake, because proquake is exactly the same only better. It seems to me that darkplaces makes a lot of technical improvements but to me the end result is that it feels weird, and isn�t quake but rather a derivative game based on quake. Even awesome features like rt lights change the game, which changes what 1 player sees from the next (who is hiding in the shadows, what items are visible etc).

Please explain the specific differences at issue here?

The dynamic lights look very different, I know this, and I removed the old dlights years ago when cleaning up the code (previously you could choose between them), the old dlights ran a lot faster (for reasons too technical to go into here), but look very different.

I can add an option that makes the new dlights look the same as the old ones (except a bit more round , or I can add back the old ones (which don't work in quake3 maps - the main reason I removed them), if this is such a big issue.

And it still doesn't support serveral features that may are requried for pq users.

Please list them.

IMO 100% compatibility with basic id quake and 100% support of all PQ features will be required for it to catch on at all.

Which PQ features are missing?

Quakec for example is old and limited and updating it may make sense from a practical point of view, but the end result is it will never ever be widely used.

I've never proposed replacing QuakeC in any way, I'm one of the strongest proponents of it, I have a whole thread on inside3d about its superiority compared to other more 'modern' languages (which of course aren't modern - C and C++ are very old).

I remember LH not wanting to add iplog before because it wasn�t 100% accurate and didn�t support ip6,

I still haven't added iplog, I had completely forgotten about it.

and I�m confused about LH not wanted to support pq rcon because he doesn�t like the way it�s coded

It's not the way it's coded that bugs me, it's the network protocol involved - DP has to use the right network protocol for the server, and the ProQuake one makes sense only to ProQuake, and is more of a pain to use (because you have to set rcon_server before you can issue commands, rather than just connecting to the server and starting to use rcon commands right away).

If it sends the QW protocol (which is the standard), the ProQuake server kicks it.

So to support the ProQuake one it would have to first detect that it is a ProQuake server, which it does not currently.

Players don�t care they just will not use a engine that doesn�t have the features they are used to. I�d never use an engine no matter how �advanced� if it didn�t have the features in qrack I like such as custom mm2 noise, auto demoing of all games, and readable scoreboard.

Never heard of custom mm2 noise - details?

Autodemo - this has been coded by Sajt but it's disabled because it doesn't work on level change (it tries to save a separate demo for each level), perhaps it should be changed to record the entire play session to one demo, no matter how many level changes occur, then it would work.

Readable scoreboard - Screenshot please?

A server that is 100% compatible with standard quakec,

DarkPlaces is fully compatible with standard QuakeC already, always has been, always will be.

What it can't handle is non-standard hacked QuakeC code that accesses engine memory.

This is not allowed for several reasons:

1. such QC code relies on the engine structures staying the same, and that would cripple all engine development sooner or later. There is an actual standard way for QuakeC to detect advanced features in the engine and use them. Mods that choose to hack the engine instead of working with it, can not be allowed to run.
   (for example the network structures are completely different in DarkPlaces, allowing servers to use a single network port for all clients for, which solves all problems with routers)
2. such QC can not work on 64bit servers (DarkPlaces is completely 64bit clean, and I run the 64bit version myself as it is slightly faster).
3. such QC is capable of damaging files, harboring viruses and trojans, etc. (this is one of the biggest benefits of QuakeC over native code dlls like Quake2 /Doom3/Quake4 use, the inability of the QuakeC to do harm to the computer)
4. such QC may not run on certain computer architectures (such as PowerPC based Macs).

For all of these reasons, only standard QuakeC mods will run, not non-standard engine hacking ones like CRMOD that were designed for an era when winded and unixded were closed source and unmodifiable.

would allow any basic netquake client to connect to, but would support better netcode and other improvements if the client could.

I've been considering this server feature, it is not easy to implement however.

A cheatfree mode that lets anyone connect and chat but only security passed clients could play (or just specifying certain IP addresses as needing to pass to play).

Security modules never work out, they only certify that the running engine is a trusted version, and the various opengl32.dll wallhacks do not even need a modified engine to do their thing.

It is better to prevent cheats from being possible at the server end, for example sv_cullentities_trace 1 in darkplaces server prevents wallhacks and pak2 cheats from seeing players through walls - it does not prevent people from using replacement textures, so they can make it look like a circus if they want to, but I don't consider that a serious 'edge' over the other players.

Furthermore it reduces bandwidth (which is always a good thing).

The only cheat that can not be prevented in any way is an aimbot implemented if in opengl32.dll.

To take it to the next level would be detecting running programs, driver versions, etc, like PunkBuster, and it only gets nastier from there.

Nice features like bump mapping, and improved visual clarity (I love how qrack and joequake look, so much more clear and less washed out, and non-brown custom textures!) without changing standard quake lighting so that what items and parts of the map (and players) remains consistent. How about interpolating in more polys so maps and models look more rounded?

My opinion is that a map should never have pitch black areas, for any reason. Then it is always a nearly-even playing field between 'fullbright' cheaters and normal players.

Simple server browser that just looks for a servers.txt in ~/quake (or http:quakeone.com/servers.txt) and runs test on servers in the file and displays the results in a list. (Having a master server is just not as practical).

Why is a master server less practical? Nexuiz and Warsow have been using my master servers for a long time.

Do you not like the DarkPlaces server browser? I realize it is rather simplistic, but it does work.

Downloading of missing maps/models/etc from a specified archive of compressed files used by custom servers (e.g. http://quakeone.com/serverfiles/) only have shareware pak0? No problem /serverfiles has gpl compliant dm3 with custom non-id textures!

DarkPlaces has two forms of downloading:

• http downloads using libcurl.dll - downloads zip archives named .pk3, so it's already compressed and just plops it right in your id1/dlcache/ directory and loads it only when needed. This needs to be configured on the server by making a file that lists names of maps and things and URLs to download if they are missing.
• direct downloads - if sv_allowdownloads is 1 (it is by default) it will download individual files on demand, additional cvars allow downloading of files inside pak/pk3 archives, and even downloads of pak/pk3 archives.
  (note: it recognizes the registered quake pack and does not allow downloads of it or files inside it, and there is no option to enable that

[LordHavoc]

I just bypassed my router and connected my PC directly to my cable modem, but it still doesn't let me play and sits there with "Connection Accepted to ...". I even disabled my software firewall. I tried a couple of difference servers without the router/software firewall.

http://www.quakeone.com/q1files/connectproblem4.log

Please give me two logs, one of the 14th build and one of the 15th build, so that I can compare them.

[Baker]

It seems to me that darkplaces makes a lot of technical improvements but to me the end result is that it feels weird, and isn�t quake but rather a derivative game based on quake.

The settings I use make DarkPlaces look and feel like authentic Quake, but possibly more so because the lighting is better in a way that makes the environment feel a little more real and like LordHavoc said, less washed out.

I just played some DM4 against bots and checked out some other maps.

I really think GLPRO has been holding back Quake.

Not only can DP look pretty authentic, and also do the advanced effects the engine is known for.

I really have a hard time containing how impressed I am with this latest build (March 15th one with the new menu) and the loc support.

DarkPlaces now does just about everything you could want with the loc support, bestweapon, scoreboard ping, user friendly menu that includes things like setting the resolution in-game (you can switch to windowed mode on a whim, also btw).

[jewification]

What's important to a client nowadays isn't special effects or graphics but pure playability, the lighter and easier a client feels in the heat of a multiplayer battle the better. Proquake is clearly the smoothest, fastest multiplayer client as of now, If someone could capture whats good about proquake and add all the extra gfx stuff ect as an option that would be perfect, also create a new cheat-free module that would incorporate all the most popular clients. To me darkplaces is an excellent client however the heavy multiplayer feel doesnt translate well into todays game, if it was possible to have the sexy gfx while still maintaining the smooth, fast-paced gameplay that would be the ideal. That's just my opinion.

[scar3crow]

One thing people are forgetting, and I know that the point of this thread is the reasons for using GLProQuake rather than DP, is the simple fact that DP does a whole hell of a lot more than GLPro, from the simple fact that DP is used as the basis for standalone games and projects like Nexuiz, Transfusion, Darsana, Feral Flesh, Zymotic and other undisclosed projects. DarkPlaces extends beyond the Quake community in its function into the world of open source engines competing with Ogre3d, Irrlicht, CrystalSpace (oi) and Genesis3d (oi vey!). This deep compatability with Quake is a wonderful balancing act were all being provided with.

Personally, Quake running DarkPlaces with real time lighting looks closer to the original than Qrack or JoeQuake with skyboxes and replacement textures, and Ive never had DarkPlaces lighting actually change the way a level looks in terms of visibility of my opponents, it merely looks like a not so pixellized Quake map, but it is darker in the same areas, to the same degree, that I remember it always being, from quake.exe, to winquake, to glquake, to quakeworld, to tomazquake, to nbquake, to frikquake, to fitzquake, to qrack and etc. To me, DarkPlaces is a close indicator to what the engine would be like if the game was made within the past few years, similar to what I would imagine Tom Mustaine's team will be doing with Q3A for Severity, only they arent simultaneously supporting a multifaceted community from 10 years ago and a host of independant game developers looking for the latest technology in an open sourced licensing scenario.

[LordHavoc]

My experiences with GLProQuake today:
I compiled glproquake for Linux today, it's the first time I've started up a nearly-stock Quake client in over 4 years, watching the quake demos I observed the following compared to my usual client (DarkPlaces):

• I had to compile it from source as no GLProQuake is offered for Linux on the website.
• It crashed on startup, I had to modify the Sys_Printf code to use a larger text buffer to accomodate the large amount of OpenGL extensions my BFG GF6800 ULTRA OC AGP offers.
• It started up fullscreen despite by use of -window on the commandline, and I had to dig around in the source code to find the vid_glx_fullscreen cvar.
• Washed out textures.
• Horrible particle effects.
• Partially pixelated textures (from bad scale-up code in glquake).
• gl_flashblend being on by default.
• Bad dynamic light effects.
• No animation interpolation, or monster movement interpolation.
• No fullbrights on textures.
• Terrible console command completion.
• No console command/console variable descriptions.
• My mouse pointer and keyboard being locked even while in the console, requiring me to use _windowed_mouse 0 to switch to another application.
• 11khz audio (I have grown accustomed to the sound of the 22khz ringing teleporter effects and other 22khz sound effects in Quake).
• gl_flashblend not being saved on exit, requiring me to use an autoexec.cfg to keep it turned off.
• Since it was an unofficial binary I still could not join cheatfree servers, despite it being nearly unmodified source code.

These are just my impressions, make what you will of them.

[Baker]

Please give me two logs, one of the 14th build and one of the 15th build, so that I can compare them.

Here is the March 14 build (it connects to ca.quakeone.com):

http://www.quakeone.com/q1files/mar14.log (March 14 build, success)

http://www.quakeone.com/q1files/connectproblem.log (March 15 build, fails)

I took a few minutes and downloaded a few different builds (Nov25, January 2007, March 2) and all of them connect just fine except the March 15 build doesn't. I hope that helps.