New DM Map - Thirsty

[golden_boy]

Well. I played around with the file and your details/brushwork and lighting are quite good for a first map.

However, layout etc is �ber-noobish. Everyone is right about how it looks like you can jump up somewhere but you can't, and how you can get stuck etc.

You're not going to listen though. So make this map and then maybe make a second map where you don't try to fuck the player over.

[damage_inc]

I wanna check it out because... well, for the fuck of it! I don't care if it's good or bad... I like to see what people come up with. I like the screenshots so far...

Keep at it mon'

[MadGypsy]

Well. I played around with the file and your details/brushwork and lighting are quite good for a first map.

Well, this is hardly my first map. I probably have 1000 hours behind radiant. Thank you for the compliments.

However, layout etc is �ber-noobish. Everyone is right about how it looks like you can jump up somewhere but you can't, and how you can get stuck etc.

You're not going to listen though. So make this map and then maybe make a second map where you don't try to fuck the player over.

When I am done with this map, I challenge you to a match. I am going to prove that you are all stuck in the "standards" zone and this map is super fun. Don't get me wrong, I know exactly what you are saying and I'm sure you are even 100% correct. I don't however believe that the things you would generally avoid can't be used to actually amplify the experience. Kind of like treating a poisonous bite with poison. I just need more time to work on this.

[MadGypsy]

oops hit "submit" too soon.

...another reason "I am not listening" (even though I am) is, to listen would be to trash 1/3 of the map. The problem is obstacles, right? Well how do I have a multi story collapse without debris? Should I stack the blocks up nice and neat and release a storyline with it that the ogre's cleaned it up?

The bottom line is, what am I willing to trade and what am I willing to trade it for. I do not see a plausible trade in the debris. I need debris, y'all don't want obstacles... someone is always going to lose here. Even if I covered the area in clipbrushes it will bring about other problems...like "how did I just walk up a 64 unit flat wall of stones?"

Also, we are talking about 1 floor and one very small section of that floor. The entire rest of the map has no obstructions.

[MadGypsy]

The floor fell in here. 3 blocks fell and 3 blocks are in the water. I understand that one block is leaning against the wall, I don't understand why people think this means you can get out this way. It's just blocks in the water congruent with what fell out of the floor.

Anyone that plays Quake knows you can't jump 96 units,... so this aint a way up

[golden_boy]

I don't understand why people think this means you can get out this way. It's just blocks in the water congruent with what fell out of the floor.�

Because there is a slope and an opening right above it. Slope jumps are very well known in Quake. Also light is coming through the hole. Light in an opening will draw the player to that opening.

Anyone that plays Quake knows you can't jump 96 units,... so this aint a way up

You can slope jump 96 units though, with the right setup.

Just angle the sloped brick a little less, so that it is less of a ramp, and perhaps dim the light above the opening, putting a light in the cellar instead (to draw people from the top down).

Regarding the debris, it is absolutely fine but just remove the getting-stuck trap and maybe experiment with some clip brushes to make it a tad less bumpy / sticky.

Small things go a long way. In the end, getting stuck is not fun for most players, so it might be good to take it out.

[Syluxguy28O3]

having debris is fine, but its possible to arrange i so it looks random and has a path through it.

[MadGypsy]

@golden_boy - regarding thinking it's an out:

I will do exactly what you said

@golden_boy - regarding fixing the sticky part:

sure, it's real easy to fix. I just need to remove one block, clip brushes aren't necessary. I know this, cause I put the block there to stick you.

@sylux - I ran a simulator using a flash physics engine (Box2D). The majority of floor parts fell straight down with only the edges being tossed a bit. My pattern isn't identical but it is accurately representational. YOu have to understand that the entire top floor fell, which weakened the next floor down causing the largest section of debris'd floor to fail first, this is where you see the boxes, the scattered and angled edges are on par with the edge bricks not wanting to fail so easily and actually being ripped down by the force of the connected blocks. If I wanted to really get technical I would actually have to add over 100 more blocks. There is a whole lot of floor missing. I hoped I mad it enough of a cluster to where it isn't obvious.

@path - aside from the above, the point is not to have a clear path. It's debris... not perfect land.

@golden_boy - what exactly did you mean about my layout being noobish? What is the pro way to connect rooms? I know it's all built on a giant cube (sorta) but that wasn't intentional. As I began too think about how rooms connect and flow...it just ended up making that shape in the end. I actually started with the blocks in the water part that everyone confuses with a way out.

Also, I know I have two very dark pathways - this is on purpose. Their is ample light at either end. The reason behind the darkness is 2 fold.

1) it's supposed to be a way to sneak from one end of the battle to the other
2) My floor grates cast just enough light on the wall to hilight that you aren't just in a black hole - which adds to the spooky element a bit, but really breaks up the brightness that encompasses the rest of the map.

[Syluxguy28O3]

as gb said its kinda common knowledge that you can jump higher if you do it while running up a slope. thats why i thought you put those bricks there.

[MadGypsy]

I did not realize it was a "thing". I thought I got very lucky with my "ramp" boxes and isolated some physics glitch... possibly due to the angle I put them at. I don't play Quake. When I say that, I mean, at all. So "slope jumping"... never heard of it til today... thought I might have even invented it, actually.

Lights by the hole have been reestablished and now it's pitch black above when you approach the hole from the bottom and the opposite from the top.

There is no way to get stuck in the debris. You can still get blocked (of course) but it is nothing a back pedal or jump wont overcome

I trimmed out almost the entire level where I felt it could use some

New hiding spots have been introduced for extra campability and ambushes

I widened the stairwell and basically fixed how the runners would trip you up

Now I am going to work on a way from the basement to the first floor that doesn't include "slope jumping". I'll even spoil it...it's going in the open basement area with the small wrought iron fence. That actually comes up right under the stairs so I think I'm just going to use a teleporter.

[R00k]

are u testing the map in DP? Does DP have the physics like QW?
Ill test this map with frikbots when i get home; toss in some waypoints and give it a go go gadget super jump!

[golden_boy]

I apologize for calling it noobish, I was a bit loose mouthed there.

What I meant was that the main path through the map had been obscured by nonideal design choices, or was not completely thought through.

My main point of criticism was that it appeared you could go somewhere when you in fact couldn't. This would have made it somewhat hard for new players to learn the map, and possibly still irritating for players who knew it well.

The parts of the map that aren't situated directly around the broken-in hole seemed to lack a thoughtfully-designed main route, or well-defined points of interest connected by pieces that make sense from a gameplay perspective. This is probably due to the map being unfinished though.

It would be good if there was another main room to the map with various connections to the debris room. Since this is intended as a multiplayer map.

A deathmatch/FFA map should have a handful of points of interest that are interconnected in various ways by a main route (and some less obvious connections such as possibilities for jumping). And I mean in gameplay terms, not so much visually. The lack of such a clearly defined, purposeful layout was what I'd call newbish.

[MadGypsy]

I am doing all my testing and compiling with lord havoc stuff, but I intend to change that entirely to the standard quake compilers, very soon. It will be easy. I just need to write a build for them. I'm not using anything fancy that hmap2 provides so I don't have to ex: go to every individual light and change some key.

If you are going to play the map, play this one, it's the latest build. In this pack I even included all the other shit hmap2 makes (prt,bak,lit,etc)

[MadGypsy]

It would be good if there was another main room to the map with various connections to the debris room. Since this is intended as a multiplayer map.

That was my intention for the open area under water which is just before the collapsed area.

I know what you are saying about points of interest and I am struggling with that, my friend.

None of this map was thought out, lol. I yanked this thing out of the ether with not so much as even an idea of what i was going to make. Next thing you know floors started caving in and then the basement got flooded. Then my big wooden cross beam appeared and the next thing you knew it had out of place lights on it that somehow still look ok. Before long, I was dragging that beam through the map as a place to put lights (LOL!!). See what I'm saying? IDKWTF I'm doing, I just keep doing it.

I have 13 hours on this thing. I've never even come close to this far before and definitely not in 13 hours. Gimme 13 more hours and I might actually have somethin.

The only reason any of this exists is because over a year ago you told me that only knowing worldcraft is a weakness. It's all your fault. Now you have to live with that. You have to live with the fact that you empowered the "anti-mapper" and now he is making maps. Look what you've done.

[golden_boy]

I think it's awesome that you're mapping, actually. Keep doing it, there is good stuff in there.