Tzunami: GPL Quake Client Development

[d1554573r]

Whoops. You're right. I got them mixed up for some reason.

Mix of those 2 is exactly what I imagined. Theres are two reasons for such logo, trident is the symbol of the sea god Neptune (planet as well), and head of trident looks similar to quad.

Another example

[R00k]

Looks like a T and looks like a Quad, just a basic symbol.

[Skutarth]

Looks like a T and looks like a Quad, just a basic symbol.

The problem I have with that one is that it looks too much like the stock Quake logo. It looks like it should be for just another regular Quake engine.

The point of quoting a chat with a friend of mine earlier was that he immediately identified my first mockup as Quake-like with no provocation. At the same time, it's not shoving obvious references down your throat. It isn't just a modification of the Quake logo, and it doesn't look like an obvious trident shape. It incorporates enough from both to be subtly recognizable.

Mix of those 2 is exactly what I imagined. Theres are two reasons for such logo, trident is the symbol of the sea god Neptune (planet as well), and head of trident looks similar to quad.

This is what I'm talking about with the problem of subtlety. I think everybody already figured out for themselves why you chose it. It's obvious.

On top of that, you're missing something important when you file all the prongs to points. Quake's logo is a stylized 'Q'. Namely, it's a crescent with a nail driven vertically through it. A trident by itself only represents the overall shape. It needs at least one iconic nail head or it's just a trident. R00k's has that going for it.

Besides... Neptune is Poseidon's bitch.

[R00k]

The problem I have with that one is that it looks too much like the stock Quake logo. It looks like it should be for just another regular Quake engine.

The point of quoting a chat with a friend of mine earlier was that he immediately identified my first mockup as Quake-like with no provocation. At the same time, it's not shoving obvious references down your throat. It isn't just a modification of the Quake logo, and it doesn't look like an obvious trident shape. It incorporates enough from both to be subtly recognizable.


This is what I'm talking about with the problem of subtlety. I think everybody already figured out for themselves why you chose it. It's obvious.

On top of that, you're missing something important when you file all the prongs to points. Quake's logo is a stylized 'Q'. Namely, it's a crescent with a nail driven vertically through it. A trident by itself only represents the overall shape. It needs at least one iconic nail head or it's just a trident. R00k's has that going for it.

Besides... Neptune is Poseidon's bitch.

I made the entire thing from scratch actually, I started with a New Times Roman capital T, next layer, 200 x 200 circle, next layer, 180x180 circle, to make the O then moved the middle up to make the points, then chopped off the top of the T and took the center bottom of the O and inverted it to make the cross sections then free formed it to stretch out, brought in the two sides, etc.. etc.. took me nearly 2 hours.

But I WAS going for the Quake look I thought it was supposed to be a logo for a Quake Engine project " Tzunami: GPL Quake Client" subversive Q shape with a T for tzunami...
Hmm, I guess i missed the point (no pun intended)...
maybe justin can use it for Tremor http://tremor.quakedev.com/

[blw435]

Why would you do that? We can already use stock QuakeC. Besides, the servers would need to run your modified progs.dat.

If it's going to be a Multiplayer only mod, why keep the monster code in??

Not only that, with the vast amount of texture replacement, there are going to be some things which are easier to completely remove all together, than try and fudge the game into believing they're still there.

For example, if you're playing a single player level on multiplayer, which has monsters on, the C code will still precache the model files for all the monsters, so you'll need to remove those as a minimum as you wont be including the relevant files in the release, then any references to the files and paths in the rest of the code, then the actual monster items when you come to edit the levels.

Another example would be the keycards, although they don't appear in deathmatch, the code is still there, along with the reference to the model/item file. Although this wouldn't be in breach of the license, it does create an area where something can potentially go wrong.

My point is, by the time you've messed about trying to make it work, you may as well have hacked the whole lot out, and as Baker said, there is ALOT of work involved with doing something like this.

[MH]

Whatever you pick, remember that a part of the Quake iconography involves using the same shape as the MDL for the damage-boosting powerup ("tetra-damage"? - "tetra" being "4", of course) so it needs to be reasonably simple enough to be implemented as one.

[gnounc]

google image searched for the japanese charactor for tsunami.
Japan has the most tsunamis (I think) ... go figure its TWO charactors. *shrug*

[gnounc]

Not really immediately recognizable...unless your japanese.

[gnounc]

...just googled.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBNu6WMfR1k&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

*sigh*

[d1554573r]

If it's going to be a Multiplayer only mod, why keep the monster code in??

Not only that, with the vast amount of texture replacement, there are going to be some things which are easier to completely remove all together, than try and fudge the game into believing they're still there.

For example, if you're playing a single player level on multiplayer, which has monsters on, the C code will still precache the model files for all the monsters, so you'll need to remove those as a minimum as you wont be including the relevant files in the release, then any references to the files and paths in the rest of the code, then the actual monster items when you come to edit the levels.

Another example would be the keycards, although they don't appear in deathmatch, the code is still there, along with the reference to the model/item file. Although this wouldn't be in breach of the license, it does create an area where something can potentially go wrong.

My point is, by the time you've messed about trying to make it work, you may as well have hacked the whole lot out, and as Baker said, there is ALOT of work involved with doing something like this.

I support this point of view. We can always re add it later if we will get monster models, expecting that new models will arrive any soon sounds like since fiction atm to me.

[d1554573r]

google image searched for the japanese charactor for tsunami.
Japan has the most tsunamis (I think) ... go figure its TWO charactors. *shrug*

It's "TS" & "NAMI" characters . I though that etching the trident with some relief with those letters like hell knight sword would be leet.

About IP and textures i studied this matter more carefully. (I would like to add that i study Political Sciences at Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań, Poland. And this subject is part of my studies)

Many people misinterpret regulations, because they base their judgment on lesser law regulations, and those generally dont regulate things that were set as principals in greater law regulations. You can't interpret IP law if You don't know the strict definition of the subject ...

Any how I came to the conclusion that we have to remove ornamentations from textures or replace them (if they are unique in design, and not generic). Also IP covers the "form of expression" so it's disputable in many aspects. There are 3 main point of views on this subject and it works slightly differently in different countries...

But lets get to the point: IP is a creation of mind - so if you take texture as a background layer (as a base) and draw over it You infringe IP (!) but if You got two images opened and You look at one and make a new one (in other window for a reference) and the "data is transfered trough Your brain" You create a new creation of mind - it's inspired then, not remade it's a reproduction.

And this is where things get complicated, You can take lower layer and remake with it and then claim that You havn't if its done good enough not to entirely copy the original You can always claim Your eyes can scan with 1200 dpi and Your hand with mouse Can PWN HP LaserJets.

So now we have to differ remakes from reproductions (and "reproductions" as well) in community work. The latter is fine with the project.

Atm im looking for sources of inspiration id used in the first place to determine what HAS to be altered and what now even if its reproduced (trade marks etc stuff).

You guys know the sword heading down with sun in background sign from game, I believe it might be satanist Sword of Power after some research but I need to dig more
Pentagram and Pentacle are obviously non-unique and general by design but still form of expression belongs to id so they have to be altered.

Theres a lot of id rip offs in QRP, nothing that cant be removed or replaced. Sorry guys i don't intend to flame You in any way but some of textures in Your package contain rescaled portions of original textures (mostly ornaments).

] ALL of our textures and models are 100% (read: COMPLETELY) from scratch.

1200 dpi eyes with hw Gaussian blur support?

Color theme could be also altered just to make final result evidently different from the original.

Also QRP license is GPL compatible (credits reference is present in many GPL comaptible licenses ... not in GPL 3.0 but this fact doesn't make it not compatible) But You have to posses full copy rights to the material You share if that license is to apply. Quad logo is trade mark (Industial Property), ornaments, strogg font on walls, quake font they also remain id intellectual property.

[MH]

Many people misinterpret regulations, because they base their judgment on lesser law regulations, and those generally dont regulate things that were set as principals in greater law regulations. You can't interpret IP law if You don't know the strict definition of the subject ...

IMO many people - especially where something like the GPL is concerned - base their interpretation on the way they would like things to be. Hence the fact that we get diametrically opposing viewpoints as to what does or doesn't constitute GPL compliance.

[golden_boy]

What I would probably do if I wanted a multiplayer-only GPL quake-alike:

Include only DM1-6 and maybe e1m2 (GPL sources)

Use flat shaded textures like people in Quakeworld do anyway and go for a comicky look similar to Warsow, possibly using cel-shading (why get hung up on recreating textures, DM6's textures for example are totally generic anyway, and a lot of people won't care for this at all)

Use tenshihan's sound pack (GPL) from the old nexuiz project and fill up with sounds from freesound etc (creative commons). Get someone to voice act the player (RMQ will do this for example, and I might release those sounds as PD or something)

make my own bmodels for ammo boxes etc. with simple textures (pretty easy)

use some custom weapon models by Ruohis, Electro or someone like that and get the modeler's approval to license them under GPL - same for player model, if necessary use the ratamahatta, homer simpson or whatever usable models from idgames2

remove all non-multiplayer code and content (I agree with this)

After this, you have something that is playable, is a lot like Quake, except for textures and models and sounds, but the physics are the same.

The problem only comes if you want it to look and sound like Quake.

[golden_boy]

on second thought, you wouldn't even need viewmodels - world models for the weapons are enough and those could even be sprites or whatever, or taken from existing mods (GPL problem though). Recommendation: Drop any viewmodels whatsoever and make the world models yourself in a comicky style. Main remaining problem is the player model.

Finally, worry about things like logos (OMG) at the end of the project, not at the start. RemakeQuake doesn't have a logo, or a real name, to this day.

Finally finally, I have a feeling that people who want to play Quake online will warez pak1.pak and use the existing servers. There are GPL shooters already, like Nexu... Xonotic, and they aren't really hugely popular.

[Skutarth]

If it's going to be a Multiplayer only mod, why keep the monster code in??

Not only that, with the vast amount of texture replacement, there are going to be some things which are easier to completely remove all together, than try and fudge the game into believing they're still there.

For example, if you're playing a single player level on multiplayer, which has monsters on, the C code will still precache the model files for all the monsters, so you'll need to remove those as a minimum as you wont be including the relevant files in the release, then any references to the files and paths in the rest of the code, then the actual monster items when you come to edit the levels.

Another example would be the keycards, although they don't appear in deathmatch, the code is still there, along with the reference to the model/item file. Although this wouldn't be in breach of the license, it does create an area where something can potentially go wrong.

My point is, by the time you've messed about trying to make it work, you may as well have hacked the whole lot out, and as Baker said, there is ALOT of work involved with doing something like this.

Who said it's multiplayer only? On top of that, you seemed to have missed the point: if you connect to a server, you have to run the same exact progs.dat file, and it is downloaded from the server if it doesn't match. Having your special progs.dat is worthless unless all the server owners want to run your progs.dat instead (doubtful). Either that, or normal Quake and GPL Quake players will not be able to play with eachother. As if the Quake community isn't split up enough...

You're better off writing this into the engine; replace unknown models with a generic cube to let you know that something is there and the content is missing. That's even what Quake 2 does if you join an expansion server without having the expansion installed. Sure, that will limit what engine you can use to Tzunami (which is the thread you're posting on, by the way), but that's only temporary until all the assets are in place so that it can be used as a data replacement for any engine.