Ogre

[QuakeRoot]

If that is the case, then I have no problems with you using the finished version of the model, when it is released.

... and no, it is NOT derivative.

Awesome
Thank You.

[golden_boy]

A lot of people seem to think that if you recreate something from scratch, it is not derivative or is not a copyright infringement.

I beg to differ. A lot of companies in the past have successfully sued other companies over from-scratch copies of their products. I'm not sure it matters that you're not directly using parts of the original model. It is still a slightly altered copy of the Quake ogre with the same animations.

It might be subject to Fair Use, but... I wonder if things like this really are original works. I don't think so.

Same with textures - if you create a high res texture from scratch that looks exactly like a texture from Quake, I'm not sure how you can call it not a derivative work.

Not to rain on the parade, but I think a copy is a copy, in the end, even if it has a mustache while the original did not. Not like anyone will care of course.

[MadGypsy]

Maybe if you call it something other than an Ogre. This Ogre looks about nothing like the original so, the only "connection" left is its "breed".

That's what I'm opining anyway. I'm certainly no lawyer.

[QuakeRoot]

Not to rain on the parade...

You're not - these are all things I've already considered and researched.

A lot of people seem to think that if you recreate something from scratch, it is not derivative or is not a copyright infringement.

I'm not sure it matters that you're not directly using parts of the original model. It is still a slightly altered copy of the Quake ogre with the same animations.

It might be subject to Fair Use, but... I wonder if things like this really are original works. I don't think so.

I haven't tested this model yet (waiting for a final release) - but I remember Tea Monster talking about making custom animation... If it DOES have the default animations, I'll make my own. Or recruit (if it comes down to it) someone to do it for me.

This critter looks nothing like the original, it's a completely different work.

Same with textures - if you create a high res texture from scratch that looks exactly like a texture from Quake, I'm not sure how you can call it not a derivative work.

Not to rain on the parade, but I think a copy is a copy, in the end, even if it has a mustache while the original did not. Not like anyone will care of course.

I'm not creating textures that 'look like quake' I'm using textures in an open source package that have been used on several other projects, and look great. It won't be "Quake" it will be reminiscent, but something else entirely, and that's the point.

I won't be dealing with copies - I'll be dealing with originals. Open Source Originals - whether they are textures or models.

Besides, this isn't an "Ogre," it's obviously a "Shnorg."

A lot of companies in the past have successfully sued other companies over from-scratch copies of their products.

Please provide cases, I'll be willing to read up on what the law considers 'stretching it.' Otherwise if this is something "You Heard" I'm not putting a lot of stock in it.

I find it likely those companies sued because a competing company was making money off of their ("derivative") source material. I'll be making no money and eventually it will be a Open Source project that will have a team of volunteers running it. No money, only experience.

[Tea Monster]

That is what happened with 3D Realms. They said that even if you call it "Dude Freakum", you would have a character with the physical appearance of Duke Nukem running around in your game.

Personally, Iv'e never heard of Id getting bad tempered about anything like this. There was a Duke mod called 'WGRealms' that ripped a ton of Id sprites and nobody raised a fuss about that.

I think (again, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't work for Id) that as long as you are not trying to make money using their stuff, they are OK with it.

[QuakeRoot]

That is what happened with 3D Realms. They said that even if you call it "Dude Freakum", you would have a character with the physical appearance of Duke Nukem running around in your game.

Understood, but I'm not making a "Quake" clone. The prototype title is "Oak," and after much thought... I'm not even going after models that are too reminiscent of the originals. For instance the Shambler is going to be another model altogether - it will be hulking, terrifying, and fun, but not a Shambler. I may go for a hideous flying "Goat Eye" to be "Scrags." This isn't the only place on the net with non-derivative Open Source models.

Your "Ogre" is similar in some ways while still radically different. It will likely be the most reminiscent of all the models I'll use.

It's interesting though, even if I went with models and concepts that are close, why would I be sued? Look at this:

ID didn't sue Microsoft - granted Microsoft is a big, powerful company, that just means they have deep pockets, they've been sued many times and they don't always win.

& it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination for some yutz to say ANY source is derivative of something else:

Why should I be scared to use my imagination to make something happen? Truly... getting sued isn't the end of the world, even if you go bankrupt. Successful Entrepreneurs go bankrupt several times before they are successful. It's for learning - not being scared of.

(Granted the idea is to keep yourself protected and not get sued in the first place. BUT GOOD FUCKING GOD!! Why is everyone so scared shit-less of making something?)

The real point I'm trying to make is everyone is inspired by what is around them. There is nothing original. Between Adam and Cain all the "Epic" great ideas are already taken. "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" gives ideas to all his minions with his blessed noodily appendages - I will take as much advantage of that as I can. (I'm a Theist, but I dig "The Flying Spaghetti Monster")

I'm Sure TFSG will sue Jesus soon...
BAM. Now we're back to religion.

[golden_boy]

Sorry if I sounded a little negative, I just wanted to mention that you could see things like this as a copy, if you wanted.

As far as I know, id has never cared about custom models and textures, even if they resemble the Quake stuff very closely. After all, even Shambler's Castle (quake remake with very similar looking monsters in idtech4) has not been C&D'd to my knowledge.

Not sure what Zenimax or Bethesda might think about this, though.

I don't know, IANAL either.

The cases I was thinking of were a) cases from the musical instrument industry, where eg the Fender company sued Asian companies making direct clones and selling them for less money. Stuff like Fender and Gibson guitars' headstock shapes are protected. And b) there was a semi-recent case where a game company sued another one (infamous for their copies) over a game that looked 95% identical. I can't remember the exact case, I read it on Rockpapershotgun.

There have also been mods that got c&d'd such as an Aliens mod and some sort of generations mod with content of several games.

Personally I do use some bits and pieces of Quake maps' layouts (made from scratch!) even in my standalone game (since it originated as a quake remake), and I would not dare publish those in a total conversion / standalone game were it not for the fact that the originals are under the GPL (mine will be as well).

The models, however, aren't free, unfortunately, as we all know.

I would tend to agree that you're probably safe as long as a) your mod requires a full version of Quake (at least pop.lmp) and b) you're not making money from it.

[MadGypsy]

BAM. Now we're back to religion.

No doubt, let's review some stuff that the bible has to say about all of this.

A) I'm just kidding
B) Jesus Saves
C) Brush your teeth 3 times a day

This is just random text, so on first glance you actually thought I went on some religious rant. I don't intend to actually say anything here. I could potentially make this go on for multiple paragraphs, just to imply that I went full on disciple, but I actually have better things to do so I will just have to settle for one.

[Syluxguy28O3]

No doubt, let's review some stuff that the bible has to say about all of this.

A) I'm just kidding
B) Jesus Saves
C) Brush your teeth 3 times a day

This is just random text, so on first glance you actually thought I went on some religious rant. I don't intend to actually say anything here. I could potentially make this go on for multiple paragraphs, just to imply that I went full on disciple, but I actually have better things to do so I will just have to settle for one.

your title should be changed to "religious zealot".

[Tea Monster]

Thanks to Microsoft and Steve Jobs, it's no longer just Jesus that saves.

[MadGypsy]

your title should be changed to "religious zealot".

Hell nah! All of the time I spend talking to God consists of me committing atrocious blasphemy.

(out of context example)
"What the fuck is your problem, God? According to the only book you gave me (A+B=C), so what the fuck is the problem? You need to get with the program, man. You put me on this miserable rock to experience "life" and then you throw me in a lake of fire for "experiencing life"...you're an asshole."

I'm a satanist (not to be confused with devil worshiper)- I worship myself.

I do believe in God though (Jesus too). I am simply uninterested in "experiencing life" by making sure to not experience any life. That's what the bible says right? You should bring glory to God in all things that you do and those things you do which do not bring glory to God are against God. Well, how inconvenient is that...considering the world is comprised 99% of things that do not bring glory to God.

[KillPixel]

very cool, how many hours would you say you've put into this so far?

[Syluxguy28O3]

Hell nah! All of the time I spend talking to God consists of me committing atrocious blasphemy.

(out of context example)
"What the fuck is your problem, God? According to the only book you gave me (A+B=C), so what the fuck is the problem? You need to get with the program, man. You put me on this miserable rock to experience "life" and then you throw me in a lake of fire for "experiencing life"...you're an asshole."

I'm a satanist (not to be confused with devil worshiper)- I worship myself.

I do believe in God though (Jesus too). I am simply uninterested in "experiencing life" by making sure to not experience any life. That's what the bible says right? You should bring glory to God in all things that you do and those things you do which do not bring glory to God are against God. Well, how inconvenient is that...considering the world is comprised 99% of things that do not bring glory to God.

lol yeah, im christian, but dont practice much anymore. it was just taught when i was young and it stuck. its ironic, that i don't ever go to church, but i will usually get into a religious pissing match with anybody, which happens often considering i have friends who are atheist, Jehovah's witness, satanist, etc. now ill stop so this thread stays on track.

[PRIMEVAL]

Quake is my religion. How's that Ogre coming? X)

[QuakeRoot]

Quake is my religion. How's that Ogre coming? X)

Really? What's the dogma, approach, endoctrination, and scripture to experience Quake as a religion?