Ogre

[Spike]

both FTE and DP can do csqc-controlled bone overrides/modifiers, including separating torso+legs etc.
The qc changes required are somewhat extensive, and hard to justify/test without a model.
For animation blending to work, the model will need to have been made to sync nicely between animations, so its really rather model-dependant.
Thus I know of no ready-to-go mods, and no already-existing models that could reliably be used.
Such an animation system also needs skeletal models, or in other words, cannot work with mdl or md3 files (iqm is what I'd recommend).
Rescaling/moving individual bones is also possible, if you want to add a little variety in faces/etc other than just skins.

[MadGypsy]

is it possible to do realtime skeletal animation

yes and good luck.

If I am not mistaken this is done with CSQC. I am not positive, but I believe the model needs to be cut into chunks and reattached in game via the darkplaces setattachment() process. I will be able to give you more definitive answers in the future as this has previously piqued my interest and I have been setting up a test environment to figure it out.

Edit: LOL, I didn't even read Spikes comment til after I commented (cause it was on the next page), but I am glad that I'm on the right track.

[Baker]

I just want to point out that this Shambler which works with DarkPlaces uses the Unreal PSK model format.



Download: Quake Shambler remodeled by ~FredrikH on deviantART

I'm just pointing this out:

UDN - Two - BinaryFormatSpecifications

[Tea Monster]

OoPpEe - Thanks. I think I have the skin under control. But I may need help with the animation.

Spike - The idea was to export as Inter-Quake format originally. I'm seeing that not everyone is doing that so I was going to ask about that. I can kick out anything that Blender has a plug-in for, which currently means MD3, MD5, IQM and I'm pretty sure it does PSK as well.

I am used to making and animating models, but I have no idea on how to get a model into Quake. I've de-constructed a few PK3 files, but I can't see a config file anywhere. If you can help with that, that will be the main problem.

So, before I start animating, do I need to keep to the same animation frames and numbers as the original model?

The main engine of choice is going to be DarkPlaces, just because it supports normal maps, which are what gives this model it's surface detail. I was also going to offer it to whomever decides to work further on the Shambler's Castle mod in case they wanted to use it.

As I previously stated, I don't mind kicking out an MD3 for the less graphically enabled Quake engines, but, to be honest, without the normal and specular maps, it's going to look (comparatively) like crap.

[MadGypsy]

do I need to keep to the same animation frames and numbers as the original model?

Unless you intend to change some QC (I'm assuming you don't) you need to make your animations the same animation frame count AND the same order. If there is a way around this I would love to know it.

but I have no idea on how to get a model into Quake.

In this case all you would have to do is rename ogre.iqm to ogre.mdl. Don't forget the gib which would be h_ogre.mdl

[silverjoel]

If you want to make your own animations, I will gladly write the qc for it.

[Spike]

firstly I wouldn't bother with setattachment unless you're actually animating md3 models separately. if you're using iqm then its redundant for everything other than attaching _generic_ model parts to other models (ie: player weapons in q3 = okay, but hairstyles/q3torsos = redundant).

If you're blending skeletal animations to separate walk/shoot/etc animations, you'll find it easier to just use framegroups within the model, rather than descrete frames, as these are easier to blend (its just a timer, and can be easilly accelerated/slowed). That said, the real advantages of skeletal animation only really come when your monster is actually moving/shooting separately, rather than the single-action of quake's monsters. So this stuff is really only important for player models.

You can do different horns etc by using different .skin files. If each part of the model is set to use a different shader in different skins, you can set it to use a nodraw shader in all but one of those skins. This requires either md3 or iqm, but bear in mind that not all engines support .skin files.
Really the only difference between md3 and iqm for monster models is that iqm's skeletal control allows you to resize/move horns as well (yes, this includes resizing a bone with geometry attached to become infinitely small and thus invisible, but you are better off with nodraw in this case).

I would recommend that you use the same frames as the original model, as this means your model will work in a greater number of mods. Add custom animations at the end for mods that are aware of it and want to add additional stuff by all means. Note that you'll need to keep the same aproximate distance stepped forwards in each frame or the animations will not match the distances the qc moves your model.

[Seven]

...you need to make your animations the same animation frame count AND the same order. If there is a way around this I would love to know it.

Read the source of the "small mod compilation" to see how.

... the real advantages of skeletal animation only really come when your monster is actually moving/shooting separately, rather than the single-action of quake's monsters. So this stuff is really only important for player models.

Hello Spike,
I fully agree to everything in your post (like always).
But I want at least mention Nehahra.
Unfortunately I do not have the source of this jewel, but in Nehahra many monsters can run+shoot.
The models have extra frames for that of course, but anyhow it is possible.
I am not aware if Nehahre is a SSQC-only mod (it looks as if it was).
That is one of the points that makes Nehahra unique in my opinion.
Its great ideas and implementation of them.
If you open your eyes and mind during playing Nehara you will find so many of them...

I would recommend that you use the same frames as the original model, as this means your model will work in a greater number of mods. Add custom animations at the end for mods that are aware of it and want to add additional stuff by all means.

fully agree


@ Tea Monster
Good luck with your amazing ogre !
I am following this thread with high interest.

Best wishes,
Seven

[Ruohis]

OoPpEe - Thanks. I think I have the skin under control. But I may need help with the animation.

I am used to making and animating models, but I have no idea on how to get a model into Quake. I've de-constructed a few PK3 files, but I can't see a config file anywhere. If you can help with that, that will be the main problem.

So, before I start animating, do I need to keep to the same animation frames and numbers as the original model?

My few words of advice (I'll start from scratch just to cover everything necessary, so if this turns out to be good advice someone else might use it also)

You'll need the following
1. modeling software (witch you undoubtedly have)
2. software to view mdl with (qME lite, QuArK, Noesis)
3. PakScape
4. md3 exporter plugin
5. md3compile

You have your completed model. You rig the bones normally as you would do for any other character animation project. Before you start to animate you need to know witch frames stand for a specific model movement, and how many frames thare are. What I do is try to keep it similar to the original, but naturally one can do as he pleases. My main reason to keep it similar is for example, weapon fire, if the gun isn't at the same place it will look like the grenade will be flying out of thin air, or out of his ass if you place the model the wrong way.

Download PakScape (unless you already have it or any other program that opens .pak files) and open pak0.pak, in the progs folder you'll find for example the shambler.mdl, copy the file to a folder of your choosing.

Now you use qME or Noesis to open the mdl file. qME is a very crude program and does havoc to your texture mapping. But it's fairly simple. I won't go in to the UI but to the left you'll find the animation listed as groups of frames.

For comparisson Noesis

qME now shows it's worth by showing the different animation groups instead of all frames in one column. I think it makes it a bit more easy to view one part of the animation at a time. But basicly when animating in your 3D program all the frames will be in one continues line. So it is important to keep the number of frames correct. Because the Quake engine doesn't know the difference bith a idle stance frame or attack frame if you place them wrong. But before I confuse even more by going off topic on my own...

If this is confusing, here's a picture that hopefully is better than my words


It is good to keep in mind that the animations are getting looped, so the last and first frames will go hand in hand.

Now lets skip the animating because I'm sure that is not an issue here. And go straight to exporting the model.

This is the md3 exporter for 3D studio I use. I input the frames and what objects I want to export. The bones don't get exported with this type of animation. Only the movement of the actual model is stored in the md3, and naturally the texture mapping.

Sometimes the the normals get a bit distored when exporting, so to be sure I use Npherno's MD3 Compiler. Open the program and press the button that sais Import Objects, then select your model.
This is how it looks like:

Simply export and It's ready to use.

You can also import additional objects and combine them using md3compile, for example I modified the axe a bit for my player model, deleted the old object and imported the new axe (since it was a separate object), and separate objects can have different textures.

For DarkPlaces it has to be renamed .mdl, but it works well like that for FTEQW and ezQuake also, only slight differences in texture format and in witch folder they go, but lets not go in to that here, i'we seen enough off topic talk about that for a few days

There might be other ways to export models but I find this one easy since I can export them straight from 3D studio, even though my md3 exporter is not the best there is

Hope this helps

Edit: Write then read

I would recommend that you use the same frames as the original model, as this means your model will work in a greater number of mods. Add custom animations at the end for mods that are aware of it and want to add additional stuff by all means. Note that you'll need to keep the same aproximate distance stepped forwards in each frame or the animations will not match the distances the qc moves your model.

To add, i think it should be possible to have the original movment with the correct frames, and after those frames one could add additional movements that could be used in mods or whatever...
for example the player, it's 143frames, 144-153 could be a 10 frame animation for running and shooting

Edit 2:

I'll just edit this to keep all usefull info in this post
http://dpwiki.slipgateconstruct.com/...odeling_for_DP
Here's some useful information about modeling for darkplaces. I only have experience in md3 and mdl modeling for quake.

when animating using the same amount of frames, is a specific model format going to look any better than the other?

and is it possible to use animation curves in the file to control the rate the frames play at, or control the frame interpolation method, so that death animations won't appear like corpses are floating to the ground and everything looks more realistic? which format would allow that.

The link I posted above might hold some answers to that question. Haven't tried framegroups files yet my self but maybe in the future I think one factor is how good the support for a specific format is in the engine you are modeling for. Years back I saw one engine where md3 animation went like this: for example the weapon on the back in one animation and the weapon holstered in another, when switching between these two animation ingame you could see the weapon move through the rest of the model from the hand to the back, instead of just moving in a blink of an eye.

good tips ruohis, good to know you can add additional anims after the originals and maintain compatibility some models in qtest had additional anims, those could be added as well as totally new ones.

When going through the original models i'we also noticed that many of them have animations that I haven't seen used anywhere... a few examples: player axedeath, soldier reload, wizard magatt?

Here's some other usefull stuff regarding models, http://dpwiki.slipgateconstruct.com/...reation_for_DP

This might come in handy (copied from another thread) when the model is done and you feel like making a head model for the gibs, and want to add blood trails to the model

md3 model tool and makesp2 build 20070412 modeltool is useful for renaming shaders within an md3 model, and changing the flags value to add trail flags like 1 for rocket, 2 for grenade, 4 for gib, 8 for rotating pickup item, etc - for more flags search for EF_ROCKET in protocol.h and read the other values, makesp2 makes a quake2 .sp2 sprite file (which does not include images) given commandline options (does not access the images, the dimensions can be completely different)

[echos]

good tips ruohis, good to know you can add additional anims after the originals and maintain compatibility some models in qtest had additional anims, those could be added as well as totally new ones.

when animating using the same amount of frames, is a specific model format going to look any better than the other?

and is it possible to use animation curves in the file to control the rate the frames play at, or control the frame interpolation method, so that death animations won't appear like corpses are floating to the ground and everything looks more realistic? which format would allow that.

[Tea Monster]

Ruohis - Wow! That's brilliant info, thanks! I am familiar with NPherno's MD3 compiler as we use MD3 on EDuke32. The other stuff is new to me and I will go search it out!

Considering everything I think I'm going to stick to the vanilla animations as a base. I don't mind adding a few new ones on the end of the train though.

silverjoel and Seven - If you can suggest a few different animations, I don't mind doing them for addition at the end of the 'standard run'.

I'm thinking that the main benefit of having a skeletal animation system (i.e. with the bones included in the model itself like MD5) is if you have a physics system in your engine (like Doom 3). That way you can have rag dolls. I'll still try an IQM format though, and have MD3/MDL as a back up plan.

MadGypsy - I had actually forgot about it, thanks for the reminder.

Thanks everyone for the input!

[MadGypsy]

Read the source of the "small mod compilation" to see how.

I was speaking about without using QC. Basically the only way what I was implying could be possible is if you could make one frame of animation be a pointer to more than one frame of animation. So to clarify my statement it would be to say:

"If there is a way to compress a larger animation into a smaller representational animation, I would love to know it."

Whereas this would seem ridiculous it would open up the possibility to create much more intricate animations within the provided QC animation frame count without modifying the QC at all. However, my statement was more rhetorical as of course it is not possible to do this.

to further clarify - consider:

A 5 frame animation in QC utilizing frames 1 through 5 of the model

frame1 (QC) = frame1 (model) = frames 6,7,8 (model)
frame2 (QC) = frame2 (model) = frames 9,10,11 (model)
frame3 (QC) = frame3 (model) = frames 12,13,14 (model)
frame4 (QC) = frame4 (model) = frames 15,16,17 (model)
frame5 (QC) = frame5 (model) = frames 18,19,20 (model)

and is it possible to use animation curves in the file to control the rate the frames play at, or control the frame interpolation method, so that death animations won't appear like corpses are floating to the ground and everything looks more realistic? which format would allow that.

Essentially yes and here is the info

(mdl, md2, md3, zym, dpm, iqm, psk)

All of these formats can use a .framegroups file (for example models/something/blah.dpm.framegroups) which contains lines such as:

1 20 30 1 // idle1
21 15 30 0 // jump

These lines contain: firstframe numframes framerate loopflag

Typically each line begins with a firstframe that is the previous firstframe + numframes, but this is not necessarily so, for example animations can be duplicated or played at different rates, the main use of this is to accommodate weapon firing anims where you can alternate between two firing animations (which may use the same frames) so that the network interpolation sees this as a new animation event. The loopflag indicates if this animation should repeat, if it is 0 then it will stop on the last frame and stay there (death animations, jump animations, etc).

Formats which do not need a .framegroups file to get automated playback of animations (I.E. an animation sequence being set by quakec as a single .frame assignment): mdl (requires special configuration of frames in modeling program), zym, iqm.

Above very slightly edited by me (without changing info).

Source: Modeling for DP

As you can see, by changing the Framerate var of any given line you can change the speed at which the animation plays

[Tea Monster]

Here is the chainsaw.

[MadGypsy]

maan, Tea Monster you are a pro, my friend.

Hmmm, that is (at least) 2 models. Having them overlap like that doesn't cause issues? I guess since it doesn't animate at the overlap it doesn't really matter..?

[echos]

an animation curve (also known as an "interpolation curve,) lets you control the rate/value of "tweens" in between keyframes, its not the same as globally setting the speed of the entire anim. with it you can ease-in, or ease-out, break tangents, etc. to refine the look of the anim. if the animation curve data doesn't get exported out into the animation file format or if the engines don't make use of that data, then it's important for an animator to know so he can either pick a different file format, or to not waste his time making refinements that wont carry over into the game.

Hmmm, that is (at least) 2 models. Having them overlap like that doesn't cause issues?

saves triangles and makes it easier to uv that way, doesn't cause any issues