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  • How To Revive Quake

    Newbies are the breath of life

    Newbies are the breath of life in a game. They want to learn, they are interested in improving, they see possibilities.

    To get them, you need to show them fun, diversity and options.

    These things will repel them ...

    1. They may see an environment that is no fun.
    2. They see redundancy.
    3. Skill disparity.
    4. Abusive environment.
    5. Lack of variety or inflexibility.
    6. See people that don't enjoy playing.
    Dead-Enders are kiss of death

    Dead-enders are players that have extinguished any further interest in playing or have achieved their full potential.

    1. Play the same thing every day.
    2. Refuse to play anything different.
    3. Refuse or hate even small changes.
    4. They don't experiment, aren't curious.
    5. Have strong and rigid beliefs.
    6. Only sense of humor is sarcasm.
    7. Strongly dislike happier people.
    8. Will act as anti-socially as the status quo permits.
    Now ... Notice I haven't even used the word Quake yet

    This is because the above is universally true with anything. You can spot these 2 groups of people anywhere ... among friends, at work, at school.

    Quake has *ONLY* a social problem

    You can cater to dead-enders all day and all night. It doesn't work and they will never be happy. And, you'll run off the newbies for extra credit. It's a suckers game.

    The main characteristic of the newbie is that they won't stay if the game sucks.

    The main characteristic of the dead-ender is that they won't leave. The dead-ender is constantly unhappy, and has been constantly unhappy for a very long time.

    The dead-ender, in their heart, wants to enjoy the game again and feels if you turn back time, they'll enjoy it again. But the problem isn't that the game has changed, it's that they have.

    The game isn't going to be new again for them, but the dead ender won't hesistate for a second to demand a newbie be denied what they would like.

    How To Solve This Without Being Mean To The Dead-Enders

    The dead-enders knows what they want, but they don't know how to get it.

    If you are successful, the dead-enders will ultimately be happy but they will argue with your plan the entire way.

    The same way they don't understand their ownselves, they don't have enough vision to see that A leads to B which leads to C.

    You need to short circuit the dead-ender, but in a fair way.

    1) You start a newbie magnet server. Newbies like variety.
    2) Make the settings appeal to the average player, but have it be absolutely repulsive to the dead-ender. (Important!)
    3) Make a strongly enforced rule that those that affect the environment of the game will be banned/muted/admin-owned. (Important)
    4) Follow thru on 1, 2 and 3.

    The settings must be repulsive to the dead-enders. You don't want their negative attitude and rude behavior around a newbie server. Mess with the settings, mess with the maps, play with the rules enough they hate it and will want to complain. (<--- it is important they want to complain). You need to make it entirely clear what the server IS and IS NOT. Don't send mixed signals to the dead-enders, make it clear so that they understand they can participate but won't be catered to.

    It is also important to have some sort of "disruptive behavior" won't be tolerated rule. Due to the settings, the dead-enders will want to complain, this gives you reason to eject them from the server. This is an important part of social coercion.

    Now, since you give dead-enders the beatdown, they can participate if you keep their numbers minimal. NEVER let dead-enders defacto manage a server with vote-settings. This is asking for them to take over the server. Remember, if they do, the newbies are gone. This means you cannot allow the dead-enders to vote their dead-ender settings.

    The reason you want to keep the dead-ender participation to a minimum is the social coercion part. If there is a mixed crowd, dead-enders are ok. They will not feel comfortable enough to be an ass. Keep them in the minority, so they feel uncomfortable and they will behave. That is perfectly acceptable.
    The Dead-Enders Win Too! But They Don't Think That Deeply

    Now, the above formula will successfully grow batches of newbies and the new crop of players will have diverse preferences and this will grow the population that likes to play the way dead-enders like to play and then they become happy because they actually get what they want after the newbies mature.

    But the dead-enders will never understand this. Don't try to reason with them, don't let them influence you. They'll want to take a shortcut that does not exist.

    A major mistake is to use to above formula and then at some point cash in and bail out, breaking the newbie generation cycle. There is a strong urge to kill the golden goose after a bumper crop of players. Stay strong and don't do it.

    Note About the Above

    Diversity isn't just the severs, mod, map and settings. Newbies like trying different clients as well and a world with more clients (Qrack, DarkPlaces, etc.) is a better one.
    Last edited by Baker; 04-13-2008, 02:19 AM.
    Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

    So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

  • #2
    Interesting read..... Some of us can learn from this....

    Quake will live forever....

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    • #3
      This post gives way to a thought, your wanting to make a newb friendly server,then how about taking all the great aspects of each individual mod and combine them into one super-mega-newb mod...
      Examples :
      Rounds possibly : Taken from CA or RA.
      Team Oriented options : taken from Crmod,CTF,CA,etc
      Powerups options : ,MegaHealth,Quad,Pent,4 basic runes : taken from CTF,RQ,IHOC.
      Hook option with drawbacks : possibly half the normal starting armour?

      If you take just even one thing that has at one time in the past,or is still in the present,continuing to keep players coming back for more,added into one cocktail mod that could please newbs and give them an enviroment to develop in,that has atleast one thing offered from any other mod, once they are ready to try something new,they wont COMPLETELY be lost when they try a different mod.

      Does that make any sense Baker
      Want to get into playing Quake again? Click here for the Multiplayer-Startup kit! laissez bon temps rouler!

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      • #4
        One thing that really helped the Q3 community was stand alone installs. The installs don't include any proprietary id software assets so it's legal.

        For Q1 that would look something like:

        *New models (already done with model packs)
        *New sounds
        *New textures (already done with the texture packs)
        *New skins (mostly done with the texture packs)
        *Non id software maps (there's lots of them)
        *Custom Quake 1 engine (GPL compliant)
        - Working server browser
        - Auto download for maps and mod files
        - More QC extensions
        - More net code enhancements (I think DarkPlaces does)
        - More GPU specific graphics (I'm referring to an already updated Q1)
        - Better model and animation support... Physic based player animations! OK, I'm dreaming, but something that looks a little more natural.
        *Any specific files for the mods

        Wrap that up into a single installer for each OS and offer it free. :d

        Unfortunately, most gamers look at the graphics first.
        If they see something that is below HL2 graphic standards they might pass.
        Last edited by Rapture; 04-13-2008, 11:32 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mindf!3ldzX View Post
          Examples :
          Rounds possibly : Taken from CA or RA.
          Team Oriented options : taken from Crmod,CTF,CA,etc
          Powerups options : ,MegaHealth,Quad,Pent,4 basic runes : taken from CTF,RQ,IHOC.
          Hook option with drawbacks : possibly half the normal starting armour?
          You must play baseball with a bat and a soccorball *joke*

          I started reading your post and it sounded intesting, until I realized that sounds more like CTF with a nerfd hook I could be wrong on the true depth of your idea of a mixxrd mod, but I'm just runnin off text here.

          Baker makes a lot of good points in his above post. However It seems theres more people trying to sellout to what dead-enders want because its instant gratification, which sucks. :/
          QuakeOne.com
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          QuakeOne.com/qrack
          Great Quake engine

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          • #6
            I didnt intend to be specific about any aspects of any mods, I was generalizing the areas that could be mixed up.

            I was just mentioning the various things different mods have to offer.
            Want to get into playing Quake again? Click here for the Multiplayer-Startup kit! laissez bon temps rouler!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Mindf!3ldzX View Post
              I didnt intend to be specific about any aspects of any mods, I was generalizing the areas that could be mixed up.

              I was just mentioning the various things different mods have to offer.
              Don't forget to add in the really wacky mods that pushed their imagination even further like HH or PainKeep

              I remember Painkeep being really popular but then people stopped playing it :/ same thing with about 70% of the mods for Quake.
              QuakeOne.com
              Quake One Resurrection

              QuakeOne.com/qrack
              Great Quake engine

              Qrack 1.60.1 Ubuntu Guide
              Get Qrack 1.60.1 running in Ubuntu!

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              • #8
                A complication of newbies is that they aren't as good as veterans (no matter how bad the veteran may be). Some veterans can 'go soft' in some ways, particularly on matters that a newbie could not logically derive from merely visual information (physics exploits versus, say, rocketjumping) through abstaining from such actions. When playing against weaker players, to keep it fun for them, I sometimes will not fire on them unless I know they've spotted me, that way they are not just continually respawning, but rather have some time to explore and get a feel for things - and then dying, in instigated combat.

                However not everyone is so inclined to such kindness, as they are rooted in a competitive sense of joy, and thus can only enjoy things through domination, regardless of the skill of the other. Aside from the fact that such perpetual competitiveness leads to focusing your game to the point of stagnation (dm3, no powerups, off hand hook, no self-damage only plzkthx) which does not attract new players and thus does not garner a larger playerbase, but also that in said behavior, anyone seeking to learn the ropes of Quake, is going to be facing a very very hard learning curve, and hypothetically very rude behavior along the lines of chatting due to many opting in for trash talk or whatnot to further deride their opponent.

                I say provide gameplay with more visibly sourced variance, that is less oriented towards running timed routes, picking fresh spawns and so on. Randomize respawn locations, have a slight natural variance in respawn times of items (sometimes it comes 5 seconds early, sometimes 8 seconds later...). There are many things you can do with this, without being too far from the original gameplay.

                Often I dream of an Inside3d server, which on a weekly basis, rotates mods (to lesser known ones like Storm the Castle, or a coop mod of some sort) and maps, and updates the site with such. Let it be a place to try new things, rather than the same ol same ol. You can't have both the game and the player base be inflexible. If the players won't bend, then bend the game, but only so much that it can still be a hopping point to the original gameplay and scene. Make it a portal of Quake, and they will come.
                Inside3d - Because you can't be Outside 3D!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mindf!3ldzX View Post
                  This post gives way to a thought, your wanting to make a newb friendly server,then how about taking all the great aspects of each individual mod and combine them into one super-mega-newb mod...
                  Examples :
                  Rounds possibly : Taken from CA or RA.
                  Team Oriented options : taken from Crmod,CTF,CA,etc
                  Powerups options : ,MegaHealth,Quad,Pent,4 basic runes : taken from CTF,RQ,IHOC.
                  Hook option with drawbacks : possibly half the normal starting armour?

                  Does that make any sense Baker
                  Yes it does.

                  Originally posted by Rapture View Post
                  One thing that really helped the Q3 community was stand alone installs. The installs don't include any proprietary id software assets so it's legal.
                  Quake is about a stone throw away from the that but faces a different challenge than Quake 3.

                  Quake 3 never had a cohesive theme and is deathmatch only, so anything could be a player model, etc.

                  And the one drawback with Quake is that the single player is outstanding is there is no workable way to include that into the fold.

                  Originally posted by Phenom View Post
                  Baker makes a lot of good points in his above post. However It seems theres more people trying to sellout to what dead-enders want because its instant gratification, which sucks. :/
                  Well put.

                  Originally posted by scar3crow View Post
                  Often I dream of an Inside3d server, which on a weekly basis, rotates mods (to lesser known ones like Storm the Castle, or a coop mod of some sort) and maps, and updates the site with such. Let it be a place to try new things, rather than the same ol same ol. You can't have both the game and the player base be inflexible. If the players won't bend, then bend the game, but only so much that it can still be a hopping point to the original gameplay and scene. Make it a portal of Quake, and they will come.
                  I wish a way to make servers potentially be any mod were possible. It might be. I'll have to walk through what the "disconnect" command really does on a server, I don't see why everyone has to be disconnect if the server changes gamedir.

                  Hmmmm ...
                  Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

                  So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

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                  • #10
                    I don't think we can view veteran players as somehow being opposed to newer players; they are opposed in some sense, but if you set up a server only aimed at newbies then it will never get off the ground, because you need some veterans to start things off so the newbies have something to join. i like your idea mindz, and would definitely play any new mod. in fact, i played painkeep with some european dudes just a couple months ago. i seem to be somewhat different from most veteran players in that i play every mod. i always like to vote random maps because it makes for something new, but people tend to hate that.
                    the only thing that i think everyone would agree on in this debate is that we need a free, legal, high quality version of quake that people can download and install in 2 clicks and be playing with 2 more. there's still loads of work to be done on this front, which is why i think a revival of quake is still a ways off

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by spooker View Post
                      I don't think we can view veteran players as somehow being opposed to newer players
                      Veteran players are an asset. I didn't say anything about veteran players.

                      Dead-enders are NOT always veteran players and most veteran players certainly aren't dead-enders. Look at Shmack and constant "START" map voters, hardly veteran players.

                      Dead-enders come in a lot of different flavors.
                      Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

                      So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

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                      • #12
                        Mtown!bringitback!
                        uakene.com

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                        • #13
                          I think that, possibly merging the two quake 1 camps (QUAKEWORLD & NetQUAKE) would bring renewed interest? Oddly, even though DarkPlaces can play on both protocols, few players are using it for multiplayer. Imagine a verteran QUAKEWORLD player firing up Darkplaces-compatible DP7 engine that they could play against some NetQUAKE verterans, using Darkplaces.
                          Is it possible for a DarkPlaces server to run a netquake mod using the QUAKEWORLD protocol?
                          www.quakeone.com/qrack | www.quakeone.com/cax| http://en.twitch.tv/sputnikutah

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                          • #14
                            I like quake and many quake community members such as Baker, Frenzy, and so on and so forth, but every now and then the trash talking is taken to a height severe enough that introversion is the only recourse, and thus loses a degree of social entertainment for me. I'm sure others can relate, and a few select others suspect me of instigating trash talking. Despite my selective abrasiveness with certain friends who are involved in unhealthy behaviors, I generally loathe any type of instigative behavior and think that (and I believe Rampage brought this up also) it is a contributing factor to my lack of desire to play.

                            In other words, can't we all just get along?

                            As for dead-enders, I'd classify them, based on your criteria, as having some sort of antisocial personality disorder or traits, and they are indeed a problem in every facet of society, more or less quake.

                            What is worse about people with severe and evident problems with society or with their personal lives is that other people come to their defense when they are criticized; this is to say that certain people are complicit in a sufferers' psychopathology as far as im concerned, and are contributing to a disease state rather than being willing to establish a boundary and make known their concern, as a friend.
                            Last edited by Stung; 04-13-2008, 09:18 PM.

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                            • #15
                              ^^^ wow, just wow. Since your post is clearly referring to the incident between me, eieio and yourself I feel I must comment. I have talked with eieio about this incident and he paints a much different picture than you would have the quake community believe. He feels you were spreading false rumors about him and just "talking shit" in general about him. So rather than "contributing to a disease state", I was simply telling you to back off, which is something most reasonable people would have done in that situation.
                              "If we fight for money I'll stop hitting you when you ask me to. If we fight for honor, I'll stop hitting you when I feel like it." - Rickson Gracie

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