On Wednesday we had another heated discussion on the topic of Bunnyhopping on the PlanetFortress Forums. In that discussion PainKilleR-[CE] made an excellent post presenting a very elaborate and detailed standpoint towards the topic. With his permission I repost it here, not only for all those who have missed the discussion in the first place, but also to be able to add it to our archives for later reference :-). Thanks a lot, PK.

BTW, this was posted as a reply to another post, hence the quote in the beginning from a post to which PainKilleR was responding.

"Also, I'm puzzled over why you keep bringing up how this "wasn't intended by Valve" thing. Were flying scouts and meds INTENDED to fly across the sky over long distances in TF?! Were Soldiers INTENDED to leap out of the elevator in 2fort?! I don't speak for everyone, but in my opinion, conc jumping is MUCH more useful then bhopping."

You want to talk about TF, then we'll talk about TF. It's quite true that concjumping was not originally intended in TF. It's also true that they (TFS, now part of Valve software) changed a number of things numerous times in TF's time under their control. They modified conc effects several times, modified the effects of gas grenades, added classes, added (and removed) abilities, grounded (and later ungrounded) HWGuys, and so on.
Eventually they turned the code over to another group, which released one or two patches and then gave up on the TF community, the reasons for which should be obvious (see the last month of posts...).

Now, we come to TFC: conc jumps are a well known phenomenon in TF, and Valve chooses to leave them in TFC. However, they screw up some code bits, and we end up with handheld conc jumps that throw you further than any conc in TF could (actually, the maps in TFC are just
preportionally smaller than their TF counterparts, but the HH concs probably still could throw you further back in 1016 than any conc in TF). Valve actually *DID* remove the HH concs completely during beta testing, and then decided to put them back, though limited. You want to discuss intent, talk about something other than the current state of concs in TFC. You want to talk about TF, talk about TF. Cannonhopping isn't a problem in TF because HWGuys can't jump and fire the AC at the same time. Bunnyhopping is an issue there, but the TF code is dead and the idea of modifying the QuakeWorld code's physics to get TF working better probably only appeals to a certain group of people.

TFC's balance has shifted quite a bit from it's early days. Most of this was a result of the 1.5 release, which altered the properties of conc grenades (weakening medics and scouts), reduced the running speed of scouts (weakening scouts again), decoupled hitscan weapons from the players' pings (shifting weapon balance on scouts and medics from nailguns to shotguns, making snipers more accurate, giving soldiers a better chance at long range fighting, etc), and decoupling the rate of fire for any hitscan weapon from the ping of the player firing (increasing effectiveness of the HW's asscan and the sniper's autorifle, the only hitscan weapons in the game that have a high enough firing rate to be effected by normal pings). In fact, it seems that the HWGuy's firing rate was so high that you couldn't even achieve it with the previous netcode, even on a LAN. GG Valve, squashed that bug, here come the asscans.

Towards the last days of 1016 (despite a recent resurgance of players looking to play clan matches on 1016 I'll still refer to the last few days before 1.5 as the last days of 1016), a certain script, known as the demoscript, or quickdet script, became VERY widely used in clans. All of a sudden clans that never used a demoman before had multiple demomen in each match, detting pipes dead-on target, doing the pipe-rocket-jump (the entire jump could be scripted), and just in general proving that a simple exploitation of a bug could have a massive effect on the game balance.

Bunnyhopping in itself is an effect of Valve using the Quake, Quake2, and QuakeWorld code to build their engine. If they *had* intended the HWGuy to be as fast as other classes and to be on offense, then wth does the manual read like this: ' Heavy Weapons Guy - A walking tank.

The name says it all. A slow moving, heavily armored beast toting an enormous assault cannon, the HW Guy can mow down any enemy in seconds. Not a lot of finesse in this one, since the cannon spits out so much fire you barely need to aim it. If you like picking a defensive position in a map and saying "No-one, and I mean no-one, is getting past here", then the HW Guy's the class you want. '

Hmm... not only does it emphasize slow-moving, but also says defensive position. hmm... of course it goes on to say 'Defend Don't go on offense with this class until you're fairly experienced. Soldiers and snipers will pick you off in an instant because of your slow speed'

Yeah, just too bad the HW isn't slow if he's bunnyhopping, and it takes a sniper a fully-charged head shot or quite a few normal shots to take you down, and takes a soldier 3-5 rockets.

Again to relate to TF, an HWGuy, bunnyhopping or not, couldn't show his fat face to the enemy snipers without gibbing, bunnyhopping or not. In TFC, just gliding I can do fairly well putting a big open hole in the enemy defense as an HWGuy, even with 2 or 3 enemy snipers playing their version of the game.

If you are interested in the complete discussion, it was started on March 20th with the post "sick of bunnyhopping?" by Mud. By the time I'm posting this it's located on page 5 of the TF Classic forum.

Tuesday, 20 March 2001 1800Z
The new models... -Teatime

While I'm sure that Totentanz won't spare you his opinion about the patch and the new models <g> I'd like to make a short comment on the models myself. <Tot>Now, if that isn't an open invitation to add my 2 cents to his post - I don't know what is. *gryn*

All in all I think they are done well. Some are looking really amazing and done with a much detail (like the demoman, spy or the pyro), others look a bit silly to me (can't decide if the sniper looks more like a fireman or a bee-keeper), but there is no denying in the quality. I'm still in the progress of getting used to them - I still need a moment to register a scout as such when I see one and I stiff mistake a soldier for a pyro occasionally due to the similarity of the new soldier skin to the old pyro skin - and of course I have aesthetical preferences based on my personal taste (e.g. I dislike the look of the spy and the pyro, though both are well done). <Tot> I like the scout, he finally does look like a military scout should. The Sniper has a proper Ghillie suit - but the model just looks bad in my not-so humble opinion. The Soldier model rocks, completely totally and utterly. The Demo looks like an riot cop, and has lost ALL it's personality and attitude - I really dislike it. The Medic model is cool, I just don't like the helmet - makes him look like a mushroom-head. The HWGuy model just rules - best of the bunch, I say. The Pyro model - to put it bluntly - looks like a complete pile of crap. He has a pinhead, and anyone that's ever worn any firefighting gear would tell you that the mask he's wearing would have a negative effect on him - It should be bulkier, with some insulation space between it and the bare skin, except where an air seal is need - so it doesn't cause his face to blister and stick to the mask itself. The Spy model is another horrid one - it looks to me like this just recycycled the female assassin model from Half-Life, and added a couple of features to it - It's far too much of a skinny model. The Engineer looks kinda goofy now, and I agree with many people that I also want the good ole Caughley Tools spanner back. At least make it not look like a cheap Star Wars toy. :P But I do agree, the skins ARE well-done, at least.

However, I have two gripes with the models beyond aesthetics:

1) Some of the classes are really hard to identify by team color on larger distances. This applies to the sniper, the medic, the HWG and the spy. On many maps this is not much of a problem, but maps with much movement like warpath, cz2 or epicenter it often takes a crucial moment to tell friend from foe (and while the name now is shown in the teamcolor there is often not enough time to make a proper identification first). NOT done well, Valve! <Tot> surprisingly, for a geezer like me, with failing eyesight and slower reflexes - I don't have this problem making visual id of what team who is on. I gotta disagree with Teatime on this aspect.

2) On a more basic note I think the more realistic approach to many of the models isn't exactly appropiate to TFC. The HWG and the engy don't fit into this appraoch in the first place, and I actually liked some of the unrealistic touches the old models had (the eyepatch of the demo, the silly hat of the sniper, etc.). I would have wished they'd incorporated more 'funny' elements into the new skins (not in a silly way, but carrying on to comment the classes in an ironic way) than doing a testrun on TF2-model-design here. IMHO the HWG is a good example how to make a model looking a bit over the top without making it cartoonish (though I'm sure some people might disagree with me here). I'd liked to have more of that attitude behind the other models as well. The way the models look now even more people will mistake TFC for a wargame ... <Tot> Mixed feelings here. I prefer a bit of the more realistic look, but not at the complete sacrifice of personality or attitude. Like I said, I miss the old Demo's eyepatch and facial expression, but think the new HWG is much better, attitude-wise.

<Tot> My biggest gripe with the model, is the animations. The legs move entirely too quickly most of the time, giving it a "skittery" appearance that I really don't like. :( Otherwise, I hate to admit it, but I'm starting to enjoy TFC again - except for the resounding lack of bugfixes in this release. But I'll save that for another rant. ;)

Sunday, 18 March 2001 1430Z
Humble yourself... -Teatime

Being killed is part of the game. It happens in many different ways and of many reasons. Sometimes it's inevitable (e.g. when you make a desperate dash towards the flag in the open, knowing you will be killed, to keep the flag there for another 60 seconds), sometimes it's bad luck, sometimes it's being owned by a better player and sometimes it's just the course of the game.
When you play keep that in account.

No matter how good you are there is always somebody out there who is even better than you. Or your opponents timing is a little better than yours. Defeat by the hand of a better player is nothing to be ashamed of and definitely that player deserves respect for his skill. Childish bitching or making poor excuses only makes you look like a fool. Rather watch and learn, and try to improve yourself. Playing against better players is in most cases the only way to sharpen one's skill and to become a better player. So take being owned as a lesson and as an example of how to do things better.

Losing by ping difference is a sad thing, but as long as we don't talk of worldwide broadband and optimized network protocols it is a reality we have to live with.
So the lower pinging player has the advantage. Show the maturity to accept that, even if you don't like it. If you feel it hurts your ego being defeated by a supposedly weaker player just due to his ping you might be advised to look for servers that give you a better ping. And if - for whatever reason - you have to play with LPB's you might be advised to try to adept (either by changing your tactics or by assuming roles and positions more forgiving to HPB's) or just accept what comes with it.

Snipers and HWG's are part of the game.
And though both are in a better position to kill their opponents - each in its particular way - their kills are not cheap.
This is perhaps the hardest thing to accept for many people, but it's usually based on a lack of understanding for the roles of those two classes. Both classes are intended to be effective and deadly. The sniper is supposed to serve as first line if defense (due to the unlimited range of the sniper rifle) and his job would be to pick up primarily any heavy offense and additionally to thin out light O where possible. The fact that many snipers fail to assume this role is not to blame on the class, but on the players.
The HWG on the other hand is primarily a supportive class on O or D (though keeping classes like the HWG from going O is exactly one of the reasons the sniper is as strong as he is). He's supposed to be a deadly obstacle to the enemy O, hard to kill, but also slow to balance his deadliness.
So one could say that both classes are having it easier to kill their opponents than the other classes. Yet both classes can be countered in many ways. If you are going against a HWG as a light or medium class you should better know what you're doing. If you end up dead it's not because the HWG would be a cheap class, but because you made an error of judgement, either of the situation or of your own abilities.
The same goes for snipers. If a sniper headshots you while you are standing still in the open you might call it a cheap kill. I would rather call it an incredible stupidity on your part :-p. If you play a heavy class passing through the range of fire of snipers better take into account to be picked up. That's what snipers were created for. The easiness to kill a slow opponent is part of the balance process. Just as the pyro blinds you, or the weak engy is given a strong arsenal of weapons. And one should keep in mind that even a heavy class can evade snipers.

So if you don't like being killed by HWG's and snipers you might ask yourself if you have understood the mechanics and rules which make this game work.
You don't have to like the fact that a sniper can kill you with one (lucky?) shot, but you have to accept this part of the game. I would even go that far to say that this is one important part, which distinguishes TFC from ordinary CTF.

So in the future humble yourself when being killed in the game.
If it happened by a better player rather acknowledge his greater skill and congratulate him. If it happened by other reasons try to react maturely, because bitching and whining will not only fail to help, but also make a fool of you.
But please keep from acting like a child which can't stand to loose. Unless, of course, you are :-p

Monday, 5 March 2001 1515Z
In case you didn't understand... -Totentanz

Like I say above, in case you didn't understand - and reading some of the feedback, some people HAVE misunderstood what I'm aiming for - I'll try to explain it again, in simpler and clearer wording, to attempt to ensure there is NO CONFUSION on the matter whatsoever.

The fix for this annoying situation *I* personally would like to see, is to make it so the HWGuy is unable to FIRE unless he has both feet on the ground. I want him to still be able to move - at the usual slower speed if he's running, or at the higher speed if he's performing some form of the "bunnyhop" - and keep his gun spun up so he can plant his feet, and be ready to "Stand and Deliver" in an instant. This would also negate the ludicrous ability for the HWGuy to fire that gun while swimming - something personally hate as bad as the bouncing HWGuy ball o'death. :P

I agree with many people that to remove the ability to bunnyhop at all - that is a much harder task that would most likely take a total rework of the HL netcode (again). That would be an ideal solution, because it would remove this exploit from ALL classes, even though the HWGuy is the one that benefits most from it - but at this point I do not think it would be a feasible one, nor would it be one that Valve would give any consideration to. In fact, this line of thinking is the reason I believe Valve has NOT been responsive to suggestions to fix this problem with the HWGuy in the past.

Summary: Tot would ONLY like to see the HWGuy's ability to shoot if he doesn't have both feet on the ground. Leave him the ability to move (at the slower speed) while firing, and leave his gun spun up. Hell, I don't even mind the speed increase from the "bunnyhop" - cause all classes can do it. It's the firing while doing that maneuver, that violates the spirit of the class - and that I object to.

On another note, I've gotten a couple of comments about my remark that if it's not fixed, I'll quit TFC. Some people have said I'm immature - or used harsher language for using that as leverage. Sorry, that's not the case. People that have known me for a while are aware of my ongoing displeasure with TFC, and the only reason I kept playing, is that I made a commitment to the community with the TFC Reform Project. However, I'm sick of the game, and I can't find any reasons to really justify continuing with it. I stated I was going to evaluate the status of the game and community after the patch and make my decision whether to stay or go then - but Valve hasn't given it to us yet. :P So, I'm lumping a resolution to this issue in with my "status of the game" evaluation - that's all.

Speaking of getting comments - here's a quick rundown of the emails I've received, and what people have said:

Out of 22 email responses received, 2 were "good riddance you whiny-crybaby" ones - at least the authors of these 2 were literate, unlike all too many of the flames I do receive. 4 were ones that agreed something needs to be done, but did not agree with my solution, or did not agree with me trying to use the threat of quitting as leverage (which is NOT my intention, merely a statement of my frustration with the game as it stands). That leaves 16 responses that said they completely agreed with my position on this.

I haven't totalled up the posts on the thread in the PF forums, and I agree this is only a small representation of the entire community - but I think I might be onto something here...

Sunday, 4 March 2001 2045Z
Enough is enough... -Totentanz

WARNING: the following editorial you're about to read WILL piss some people off. Hopefully, others will agree with what I'm saying here. Either way, it doesn't matter to me - this is MY (and Teatime's) webpage, and we tend to make it a habit of getting under people's skin. Many times, I glory in it - especially if it makes them stop and think, instead of acting like a sheep. Hang on to your socks, we're in for some turbulence...

First off, in case you folks don't know, I consider myself an old-timer when it comes to TF. I started playing it back in the Quake1 days, BEFORE all nine classes were in the game. I can remember when Engineers were able to make Teleport portals. I remember the Pyro's days of "sticky napalm grens" - when Sentry Guns didn't last, because you could airburst a napalm gren, and take out an Sgun with minimal effort (oh how I loved playing Pyro in my clan back in those days). I also remember the final version of QWTF, TF version 2.9, when they made it so the HWGuy could not move AT ALL, when his gun was spun up. Both good and bad playbalance decisions where made by TFS in those days.

Recently, on the PF forums (I no longer have the time to read any other ones, and often am lucky to read the PF ones), there has been a rather heated discussion about HWGuys (I can hear the groaning already), and their ability to accelerate to speeds on par with the fastest classes. I've personally seen these bouncing HWGs catch up to and pass a scout. Folks, something is definitely WRONG here. Let's analyze the class itself for a moment, shall we?

The HWGuy has the slowest running speed, on purpose. He has the ability to have 300 armour factor - that's 50% more than the Soldier can carry, and he's barely faster than ole fatso. He carries the godsawful nasty Assault Cannon/Chaingun/GE Mixmaster 2000/whatever you want to call it, which is capable of shredding lighter classes in under a second at medium to close range. The heavier classes, besides another HWGuy , it might take him 1-2 seconds to annhilate them. Folks, this gun, in real life, is designed to be mounted on a VEHICLE, like a helicopter, an airplane, or some nasty Armoured tracked or wheeled conveyance. The mere weight of the gun assembly itself, the ammo supply that voracious beast would devour, and the batteries required to spin it up would preclude any normal person from moving faster than a walk. Hell, I've carried the US Army M-60 machine gun, with tripod mount, on patrols, with a full combat load - and that thing is enough of a burden. Most of us that play TF have seen the movie "Predator" - and have seen what that thing would look like in action - if it actually existed in a man-portable format!
All of the characteristics of the class, put together, lends itself to the HWGuy conforming to TFS/Valve's original idea of the capabilities of the class. A slow, plodding but durable as hell SUPPORT class. Scouts were designed to run FAST - and as a result they have next to no armour, and no weapons that pack a punch. The Sniper has "that damned rifle" (another quote from the Vault, for us oldskoolers) - but next to no armour as well. He can't fire his rifle unless he has his feet on the ground - that's called playbalancing there, folks - back in the OLD-OLD days, he used to be able to jumpshoot. Bundy helped put an end to that crap.. As we work throught the other classes, they get progressively more lethal, and more armoured - and slower moving - for a damned good reason!
In conclusion, when you have a class with that much armour, that powerful of a weapon - to offset those advantages, he was designed to move slow. And if he's shooting that gun while walking, he moves even slower - as is logical for a gun that lethal.

But now, thanks to ingenious people exploring the limitations of the Half-Life Engine, they have discovered ways to invalidate the DESIGNED checks and balances. Thanks to these techniques, we see plagues of these insane creatures, bouncing like a playground ball, and firing as they do so. Warriors, there is something seriously wrong with this picture. And now, all you advocates of this technique are going to start battering me with reasons why this should be. Hmmm, let's go through a couple of the statements they'll make in defense of this crap. In interest of simplifying this discussion, and with all due respects to Maj. Ghob - who recently provided a very thorough post (since I disapprove of this tomfoolery, I refuse to use the adjective "good" in reference to it) on how the various techniques are done - I'm going to call them all "bunnyhopping", because that's how ludricrous it makes a HWGuy look on the battlefield when he's doing it. A "bunny rabbit" with an assault cannon and a tonne of armour. *spit*

1. It's not a cheat! It's a skill anyone can learn, like rocketjumping or concjumping - *bzzt* Rocketjumping and gren1 jumping has a definite cost to it - it take a significent amount of armour and health away from you when you perform that maneuver. The concjump leaves the jumper concussed until it wears off, leaving you at less and optimal combat effectiveness during that time. If you mess up you bunnyhop technique - all you do it slow down to your normal - designed by Valve - speed. No other negative effects. You cease abusing a loophole, and revert back to how the design document intended the class to be.

2. The soldier can fire and shoot, the HWGuy should be allowed to as well, to be able to survive being attacked by them - "Uhm, negative on that, Houston" Lets go back to the design of the class, folks. What happens when you're walking/running, and you crank up that gun? That's right, you slow to approximately half-speed. For a damned good reason, a weapon like that would have one hellacious recoil to it, that there would be no chance of keeping it on target if you didn't have a firm stance. But besides that - it was designed that way.

3. If Valve didn't mean it to be in there, why haven't they fixed it yet? - *insane laughter* Anyone remember how much effort it took to get Valve to START working on the initial problems, bugs and other nonsense with TFC? I damned sure do - I started the TFC Reform Project to try to make these fixes happen, and I'm glad to say between it, help from other people/organizations, Valve decided to keep maintaining a product that generates them ZERO revenue. But remember, they're working on TF2, and using TFC as a guinea pig for technology that might be used in that product. How many people are screaming "Where's the patch?" - hmmm? In previous posts I've detailed the lengthy QA process Valve has to go throught, because of their relationship with Sierra, because of all the various mods out there, especially their present darling, Counter-Strike. Meanwhile, in the time between the last OFFICIAL release, and now, there have been at least 2 newer versions of the Speed Cheat, 2 of the Unban Hack, and other cheats that are probably higher on their priority list, WITHOUT breaking the working functionality they have at present. Change takes time, and persistance. Hence me being persistant. But I'm about to take this persistance to another level.

I could probably come up with a few more of the prevalent arguements that advocates of this idiocy would use to try to defend it - but I'm not in the mood to waste my time doing so. I'll probably get a bunch of flamemail calling me a talentless whiner that can't play the game for shit. Well, quite frankly, I've got a simple answer for anyone who feels that way about my stance on this issue. And I'll make it really simple, so everyone can understand it. "You can kiss my ass." This little exploit is by itself destroying the "balance" TFC had before, and I feel it needs to be reined in, ASAP.

As for myself, I've made a decision. Right now we're polling the PlanetFortress staff as to their positions on this issue, and at the end of that, we plan to send a group email stating our position on this issue. I'd recommend any other large TFC-related webpages to do likewise - both clan-related ones, and general discussion ones. But either way, if Valve decides that they will NOT take prompt action to eradicate this lunacy, I know what I'll be doing. If that is the end result, and Valve allows this to persist, *I* personally will stop playing TFC completely. I will discontinue my participation in the TFC Reform project, and leave that in Warthog's hands to do with as he sees fit. If it comes down to that, I WILL be deleting Half-Life from my system, and I'll definitely be looking VERY warily at TF2 - if in the event it actually stops being anything more than vapourware. What, it was shown at E3 2 years ago, wasn't last year, and will not be this year - not very encouraging, in my eyes.

This is a very sad decision for me to make, as I've always been a big fan of the TFS guys, and that stayed when John and Robin achieved their career goal by being hired by Valve. However, As much as I love the TF genre, and as much as I respect John and Robin - this is no longer the only TF game in town, and I'm having MUCH more fun playing Q3F and UnF these days. I see no reason I should waste my time supporting a game that no longer gives me any enjoyment. I'm not getting paid to do this, and when a hobby ceases being enjoyable - there's no sense in doing it any more. :(

If you feel a need to want to email me, to try to convince me why it should stay as is, or to send the usual slings, arrows and other abuse - you know the email address. Be forewarned - I'm cocked, locked and ready to rock, and as usual, I reserve the right to respond to intelligent conversation, ignore inane, profane and abusive ones, and to post suitable ones for ridicule here on The Fort - if they're truly deserving. That having been said - Bring it on....